Uniting the split body

[confusedgirl]

So why do you treat those who believe differently as unequal?

(Note: I’m not asking this to shame you or pick on you. I’m asking because if we are to change things, we first have to change ourselves. The first step to changing ourselves is understanding why we do the things we do. I actually admire your self-awareness in this regard).

That is alright I won’t pretend that I am anywhere near perfect in this matter. I don’t think it’s so much treating differently as much as it is I don’t see them as being united in the same faith as myself. I think its for the same reason why so many protestant groups don’t see Catholics as Christians simply because there are many misconceptions that they believe that don’t make them Christian. I think that when you believe you have the truth you may never want to believe anything else.

That being said I strongly disagree with the belief that if you don’t belong to my faith you’re going to Hell because judgement is God’s and God’s alone. I think what I would really like to see is a Born-again Fundamentalist walk up to a Catholic and accept them as an equal brother in Christ not a “Hell-bound” sinner. Don’t get me wrong I jump for joy when people say they want to become Catholic and I think every religion does when they get converts but have to admit I don’t love that the church down the street doesn’t see my church as Christian

 

[MichaelP3]

You’re assuming that Lutheran/Orthodox/Anglicans/Methodist/Baptists see the Church Jesus founded in this verse to be the Catholic Church. Many of them would disagree.

Good point. Many of these threads and answers are based on assumptions “as if that’s already a fact” and let’s go on.

Someone here mentioned the main reason was pride. That is twofold. Pride from the Protestant side to question, and pride from the Catholic side “not to listen”. When when Trent came it was way too late for various reasons that any of us can google. But I can blame pride for that as well. Maybe if Trent came sooner and a deaf ear wasn’t thrown to certain groups, things may have been different.

But that was a choice then by individuals long gone. What can we do now?

 

[jane_doe]

That being said I strongly disagree with the belief that if you don’t belong to my faith you’re going to Hell because judgement is God’s and God’s alone. I think what I would really like to see is a Born-again Fundamentalist walk up to a Catholic and accept them as an equal brother in Christ not a “Hell-bound” sinner. Don’t get me wrong I jump for joy when people say they want to become Catholic and I think every religion does when they get converts but have to admit I don’t love that the church down the street doesn’t see my church as Christian

You said: "Don’t get me wrong I jump for joy when people say they want to become Catholic and I think every religion does when they get converts "
I would agree that every person does jump for joy when they see a person come closer to what they perceive as Truth. I would also say that people leap for joy when a member of their faith deepens their commitment/understanding/love. It’s perfectly natural to be excited when someone comes closer to Truth.

Speaking my thoughts: the key to being able to love all people equally is not to have your love be dependent on how close/far that person is along the road walking to Christ. Would you love a Catholic who struggles with their faith more than a really diligent member? No! Likewise with all human beings: some are closer to the path, some further, but we (and Christ) love them all the same.

 

[MichaelP3]

Well, concessions were made for the Eastern Churches…and the Anglicans who came as a unit. We would just have many more rites in the Church, but all under the same umbrella.

Hi LA. Been some time for me.

What umbrella would you propose? What would it entail?

What should all agree on, or at least not disagree on?

 

[Horton]

I was reflecting today after mass about my family and my conversion and thinking about some things. I was reflecting on a particular passage in Romans today

And because of God’s gracious gift to me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you should. Instead, be modest in your thinking, and judge yourself according to the amount of faith that God has given you. We have many parts in the one body, and all these parts have different functions. In the same way, though we are many, we are one body in union with Christ, and we are all joined to each other as different parts of one body.(Romans 12:3-5, GNT)

From what I understand, we are many people joined together by our faith in Christ and we are the many parts joined together as one body with one belief in Christ. I grew up in several different protestant denominations, Apostolic, Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal and it is clear to me that the pieces breaking away from the body of Christ have even been breaking away from each other. The Southern Baptists will not agree with the United Church and the Anglicans will not agree with the Seventh Day Adventists and it just goes on. Instead of one Universal Christian Church, we have one Catholic Church and 30,000+ denominations who stay that they have the answer.

St. Paul told us to stay together and instead there has been so many break offs which have lead to the formation of new bodies. I came to see this when I was thinking of my mother who very much believes that the Church should be unified as ONE church in Christ but her beliefs don’t agree with the denominations that she goes to and she starts going to another one. My mother doesn’t believe that there is a church that is all united in Christ (she has also never learned the truth about the Catholic church either ) but I think that all this breaking has caused confusion within Christianity, it has changed so much that even the Christians cannot identify who is a Christian anymore.

I believe the reason why converts and people in the process of converting (like myself) are so drawn to the faith is because even with all the breaking off within the Protestant movements the Catholic church has stayed together for almost 2000 years.

Those are just my thoughts though, I would love to hear the opinions of others

I would like to think we could all come together as one united universal (catholic) church. The reason so many other churches, Christian or not, split & divide is because they were founded by men and not Jesus Christ. They go with their own interpretations of scripture, some even going so far as to delete parts they feel do not work within their understanding of scripture, such as the 7 books taken out of the Catholic bible or they add more scripture to further explain ideas that have never been part of the Christian Church.

These groups split because they have fallen away from the truth. Not so much the individuals today but those in the past. But even now there are many non-denominational churches started based of the particular beliefs of one or two people.

The Catholic Church does believe that those Christians with a valid baptism are already part of the body of Christ but without the fullness of Truth.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Good point. Many of these threads and answers are based on assumptions “as if that’s already a fact” and let’s go on.

Someone here mentioned the main reason was pride. That is twofold. Pride from the Protestant side to question, and pride from the Catholic side “not to listen”. When when Trent came it was way too late for various reasons that any of us can google. But I can blame pride for that as well. Maybe if Trent came sooner and a deaf ear wasn’t thrown to certain groups, things may have been different.

But that was a choice then by individuals long gone. What can we do now?

I mentioned pride, but I was mainly referring to all the division within your own ranks. I saw people leave protestant Churches for what appeared to be minuscule reasons…rather silly but when you are full of pride, you wont see the forest from the trees.

I don’t blame Luther for objecting to some of the things he objected to. And if not him, somebody was going to break soon after, imo. We can argue right or wrong but the bottom line is, even if we both agreed the CC was error free, it wouldn’t matter as many people just have a big problem with authority. The printing press was printing bibles by that time and all it takes is one guy with the charism to preach and influence… and there you have the protestant revolt.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi LA. Been some time for me.

What umbrella would you propose? What would it entail?

What should all agree on, or at least not disagree on?

Hey bro.

I don’t think it’s possible as a whole because of the propitiation of the Mass. That’s a deal breaker and no concession will be made for it, ever.

But let’s just theoretically say the Lutherans/Anglicans and maybe high church Methodists budged on that. I could see a single rite for those 3 denominations. Let’s just call it the “almost home” rite Or the “middle of the tiber” rite They keep their liturgy with a few tweaks to keep it Catholic.

I’m dreaming cause this will never happen. Much better chance of ending the schism with the East, imo

 

[MichaelP3]

I mentioned pride, but I was mainly referring to all the division within your own ranks. I saw people leave protestant Churches for what appeared to be minuscule reasons…rather silly but when you are full of pride, you wont see the forest from the trees.

I don’t blame Luther for objecting to some of the things he objected to. And if not him, somebody was going to break soon after, imo. We can argue right or wrong but the bottom line is, even if we both agreed the CC was error free, it wouldn’t matter as many people just have a big problem with authority. The printing press was printing bibles by that time and all it takes is one guy with the charism to preach and influence… and there you have the protestant revolt.

Oh, oops. Actually I read that a while ago and didn’t realise as I was typing that it was you.

I can agree the CC may have been error free, but the thing there is, even if it wasn’t, it wouldn’t hinder me from being Catholic. It is just so enshrined within Catholic doctrine that it has to be. That is one of the numerous contradictions in my opinion.

I agree the Reformation would have happened one way or another considering the way things were going. And the fact that it spread so fast, so quickly is worth wondering.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Oh, oops. Actually I read that a while ago and didn’t realise as I was typing that it was you.

I can agree the CC may have been error free, but the thing there is, even if it wasn’t, it wouldn’t hinder me from being Catholic. It is just so enshrined within Catholic doctrine that it has to be. That is one of the numerous contradictions in my opinion.

I agree the Reformation would have happened one way or another considering the way things were going. And the fact that it spread so fast, so quickly is worth wondering.

Well, consider what is being offered. Instead of the Catholic Church with all her rules you have a much more simple religion that preaches Romans 10:9 allows you to be you and divorce 500 times if you want to…and even “sin boldy” as Luther put it.

When i enlisted in the military many moons ago they had the recruiting offices, all 4 major branches, in the same lot. Let’s just say most of us avoided the Marine corp office there on the left hand side because it just seemed a lot harder than the other guys lol

Not that everybody is in that camp. I realize some just cant reconcile some Catholic dogma even thought they would like to.

 

[Vera_Icon]

Well, consider what is being offered. Instead of the Catholic Church with all her rules you have a much more simple religion that preaches Romans 10:9 allows you to be you and divorce 500 times if you want to…and even “sin boldy” as Luther put it.

When i enlisted in the military many moons ago they had the recruiting offices, all 4 major branches, in the same lot. Let’s just say most of us avoided the Marine corp office there on the left hand side because it just seemed a lot harder than the other guys lol

Not that everybody is in that camp. I realize some just cant reconcile some Catholic dogma even thought they would like to.

I dont think, its a “much more simple religion” if you are Protestant. Christianity is difficult anyway you look at it and each denomination has to deal with that. It might actually be more difficult to be a believing Protestant because of the belief that there is nothing you can do (no specific works, no amount of Hail Mary’s etc) to be saved. It is pretty difficult to believe you are so incapable as a human being that literally the only thing that can save you is God’s mercy.

 

[Rosebud77]

When I was a teenager it was hard to get my mother to even agree with me. It is funny because her and many protestants agree with Catholic doctrine. I fully support the idea of ecumenism and that we need to come back together but I don’t know how likely that.

In the sense that all will agree on doctrine etc no and things that at base do not matter … it is when folk target others for reasons that are less than vital in the real sense.

Wearing a crucifix and selling rosaries etc,. I can be having a fine and friendly chat iwith someone and POW! Once in LIDL here I was chatting with a man whose trolley was fillled with babies! Suddenly he started backing me against the potatoes ranting re “wrong teaching…” he was apparently a baptist minister,

NOT OF JESUS!

 

[Rosebud77]

Nailed it! The protestants i have encountered outside this forum have typically been extremely ignorant on the canon in which they hold so dear. Meaning the human process involved and the preservation that occurred for all those years.

At least Luther and Calvin acknowledged the Catholic Churches sacrifices made in order to preserve the scriptures. So much Catholic blood was shed to protect this book that modern day fundamentalists now use to attack her with.

I’ve had the same resistance from protestant family members. One, in particular, had the nerve to ask me how I could LEAVE Christianity. That is so outrageous that I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry.

Does that really matter now? and of course blood was shed on all sides… what of "ignorance"compared to a living faith? Which many in other churches have. Why attack all time like this? Achieves nothing and does harm.

 

[Rosebud77]

I 100% agree with your sentiment here- I also wish all people would come to the One Truth.

But in a person’s hearts of hearts people interpret/believe scripture differently hence the many splits.

Actually the other major faiths in the world have equally major fragmentation too. We just don’t hear about it in Christian-dominated Western society because to our uninformed ideas all Muslims look like “just Muslins” and all Hindus like “just Hindus”, etc.

My other major sentiment on this issue is: yes we disagree with each other on faith. But that does to mean we have to fight or deride each other. Respect and Christ-like love should always be a guiding principle in how we treat our fellow men, regardless of how that person believes.

agree totally

 

[Rosebud77]

(Speaking my own non-Catholic thoughts here)

Ecumenism is the idea that a Catholic priest talks to the leaders of some other faith, and then those leaders inform their congregants that they are all going to abandon their previous beliefs and become Catholic. It is a horrible degrading concept rooted in pride. It is not Christian “unity”-- unity would imply that red and yellow to make orange. Rather, the goal of ecumenism is to eliminate yellow and only have red.

If a person (Catholic or whatever faith) wants to share the Light and Truth they have with another person, then they should go over and offer that Light and Truth to that person. That is how the Good Shepard works: seeking each sheep individually.

Thank you for this wisdom and compassion

I deeply regret that here in Ireland I could not and cannot attend church in my former church without causing scandal. I long to sing and pray with others who know and love the Lord Jesus as I do. I deeply regret this. Aches me to my very soul.

shame on us all really…

 

[Rosebud77]

By the way I defused the situation in LIDL with the bumptious Baptist by quietly speaking of the love of Jesus. Who can resist the Lord who loves Him? We found that unity

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I dont think, its a “much more simple religion” if you are Protestant. Christianity is difficult anyway you look at it and each denomination has to deal with that. It might actually be more difficult to be a believing Protestant because of the belief that there is nothing you can do (no specific works, no amount of Hail Mary’s etc) to be saved. It is pretty difficult to believe you are so incapable as a human being that literally the only thing that can save you is God’s mercy.

Greetings.

Catholics don’t think we can work our way into heaven. That’s a misconception.

We respond to the grace given to us by God.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Does that really matter now? and of course blood was shed on all sides… what of "ignorance"compared to a living faith? Which many in other churches have. Why attack all time like this? Achieves nothing and does harm.

Yes, it DOES matter.

And I am not attempting to cause any harm…but If you wrote a book and I used that same book to constantly ***attack you ***and tried to convince you incessantly that I knew your true message, you probably would not appreciate that. There would be many terms you could use to describe me if I were doing this…IGNORANT, presumptuous and/or rambunctious come to mind

Hatvika, Michael, Benhur, Lutheran Scholar and others here are great Christians who are reasonable and they do not fall into this category.

 

[Vera_Icon]

Greetings.

Catholics don’t think we can work our way into heaven. That’s a misconception.

We respond to the grace given to us by God.

If that is a misconception, then many, many Catholics are not understanding their faith.
If your loved one dies, a Protestant knows there is nothing they can do to help them get to heaven. Now… A Catholic can have a pretty huge impact by going to confession, communion, praying in the intentions the pope set for that month, and going to the cemetery (that is, its enough only between Nov 1 and 8, one day after the Octave of All Saints Day the cemetery is no longer enough).
And please don’t say “but you dont understand”- i was a devoted Catholic for 24 years and I understood it then and I understand it now. I just never agreed with it.

 

[Rosebud77]

Yes, it DOES matter.

And I am not attempting to cause any harm…but If you wrote a book and I used that same book to constantly ***attack you ***and tried to convince you incessantly that I knew your true message, you probably would not appreciate that. There would be many terms you could use to describe me if I were doing this…IGNORANT, presumptuous and/or rambunctious come to mind

Hatvika, Michael, Benhur, Lutheran Scholar and others here are great Christians who are reasonable and they do not fall into this category.

disagree. There is no need for you to combat. Walk away.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

If that is a misconception, then many, many Catholics are not understanding their faith.
If your loved one dies, a Protestant knows there is nothing they can do to help them get to heaven. Now… A Catholic can have a pretty huge impact by going to confession, communion, praying in the intentions the pope set for that month, and going to the cemetery (that is, its enough only between Nov 1 and 8, one day after the Octave of All Saints Day the cemetery is no longer enough).
And please don’t say “but you dont understand”- i was a devoted Catholic for 24 years and I understood it then and I understand it now. I just never agreed with it.

One key point you didn’t mention…

That hypothetical loved one was/is presumably ALREADY saved by the grace of God.