Uniting the split body

[Vera_Icon]

One key point you didn’t mention…

That hypothetical loved one was/is presumably ALREADY saved by the grace of God.

Yes, the question of purgatory. Something that most Christian denominations dont believe in- would definitely create problems in uniting the split body. Something that the CC would not give up in order to achieve union… (Just trying to tie our conversation back to the topic of the thread )

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Yes, the question of purgatory. Something that most Christian denominations dont believe in- would definitely create problems in uniting the split body. Something that the CC would not give up in order to achieve union… (Just trying to tie our conversation back to the topic of the thread )

VI, I would argue that most DO believe in some form or purgatory.

I was a protestant for 13 years and heard different theories.

In the Anglican church the pastor said our judgment day as Christians will be very painful and not something he is looking forward to. He referred to the passage the CC uses to support her doctrine 1 Cor 3:15

In the fundamentalist church, the pastor said that if you are a wordly Christian then you will be stinking in heaven after your judgment. Again, he also refers to 1 Cor 3:15

What we will likely never agree on is the fine print like indulgences.

 

[Horton]

If that is a misconception, then many, many Catholics are not understanding their faith.
**If your loved one dies, a Protestant knows there is nothing they can do to help them get to heaven. Now… A Catholic can have a pretty huge impact by going to confession, communion, praying in the intentions the pope set for that month, and going to the cemetery (that is, its enough only between Nov 1 and 8, one day after the Octave of All Saints Day the cemetery is no longer enough).
**And please don’t say “but you dont understand”- i was a devoted Catholic for 24 years and I understood it then and I understand it now. I just never agreed with it.

I was a life long Protestant before converting to the Catholic Church. Never anywhere have I heard that going to confession, communion, praying for the intentions of the Pope and going to the cemetery are necessary to help a deceased love one get to heaven. I’ve been to many Protestant funerals where prayers are said for the deceased to be received into heaven so I’m guessing it’s not only a Catholic thing, praying for the dead.

We are saved by grace and because we are saved by grace we then should do good works to glorify the Lord. In other words we need to live our faith and a good way to live our faith is to do good works.

 

[Vera_Icon]

I was a life long Protestant before converting to the Catholic Church. Never anywhere have I heard that going to confession, communion, praying for the intentions of the Pope and going to the cemetery are necessary to help a deceased love one get to heaven.

We are saved by grace and because we are saved by grace we then should do good works to glorify the Lord. In other words we need to live our faith and a good way to live our faith is to do good works.

Not necessary, but possible. It is possible to receive a plenary indulgence if you follow these steps. There are other options (if you want to obtain it any other time of the year).

I agree with your last paragraph.

 

[PJM]

I dont think, its a “much more simple religion” if you are Protestant. Christianity is difficult anyway you look at it and each denomination has to deal with that. It might actually be more difficult to be a believing Protestant because of the belief that there is nothing you can do (no specific works, no amount of Hail Mary’s etc) to be saved. It is pretty difficult to believe you are so incapable as a human being that literally the only thing that can save you is God’s mercy.

THANK YOU!

Interesting perspective;, so friend, what is your next step?

PRAY much:thumbsup:

GBY

 

[PJM]

If that is a misconception, then many, many Catholics are not understanding their faith.
If your loved one dies, a Protestant knows there is nothing they can do to help them get to heaven. Now… A Catholic can have a pretty huge impact by going to confession, communion, praying in the intentions the pope set for that month, and going to the cemetery (that is, its enough only between Nov 1 and 8, one day after the Octave of All Saints Day the cemetery is no longer enough).
And please don’t say “but you dont understand”- i was a devoted Catholic for 24 years and I understood it then and I understand it now. I just never agreed with it.

OK**, BUT**

After death prayers and sacrifices only apply if the Person {SOUL} is in Purgatory. Both heaven and Hell are DONE deals, by OUR own life choices.

That said no prayer, no sacrifice goes to waste. God reapplies them:thumbsup:

God Bless you, and PLEASE pray much

 

[TC3033]

That is alright I won’t pretend that I am anywhere near perfect in this matter. I don’t think it’s so much treating differently as much as it is I don’t see them as being united in the same faith as myself. I think its for the same reason why so many protestant groups don’t see Catholics as Christians simply because there are many misconceptions that they believe that don’t make them Christian. I think that when you believe you have the truth you may never want to believe anything else.

That being said I strongly disagree with the belief that if you don’t belong to my faith you’re going to Hell because judgement is God’s and God’s alone. I think what I would really like to see is a Born-again Fundamentalist walk up to a Catholic and accept them as an equal brother in Christ not a “Hell-bound” sinner. Don’t get me wrong I jump for joy when people say they want to become Catholic and I think every religion does when they get converts but have to admit I don’t love that the church down the street doesn’t see my church as Christian

Made me chuckle a little, what’s funny (or ironic) growing up in a non-denominational church is that I saw all Christians as an equal brother in Christ.

It was only going to Mass with my wife that I learned that there are some Catholics that hold the same beliefs (that if you’re not Catholic, you’re a hell-bound sinner) that yourself are condemning another Christian for having. I have run into it myself.

Of course, these are normally older individuals that spent more time in the church pre Vatican II, but none the less…

 

[Peter_J]

I dont think, its a “much more simple religion” if you are Protestant. Christianity is difficult anyway you look at it and each denomination has to deal with that. It might actually be more difficult to be a believing Protestant because of the belief that there is nothing you can do (no specific works, no amount of Hail Mary’s etc) to be saved. It is pretty difficult to believe you are so incapable as a human being that literally the only thing that can save you is God’s mercy.

Heh. I read what you said and was about respond with “Well, some of us think Protestantism is pretty complicated. ”
Then I read what you quoted and realized that it basically said that.
So there we are eh?

 

[Peter_J]

… there are some Catholics that hold the same beliefs (that if you’re not Catholic, you’re a hell-bound sinner) that yourself are condemning another Christian for having. I have run into it myself.

There’s quite a lot that I run into frequently online, but rarely offline. I think that tells you something.

 

[johnnyc176]

I don’t fault anyone for having different beliefs. I was getting at more of the infighting in Christianity. I know a girl who comes from a Baptist family and doesn’t think Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Mennonite, and so many other groups are Christian. I grew up going to several different churches and several different interpretations of scripture. I like having just one and I think a lot of people like having one. I don’t think Jesus wanted us to be fighting over who is right but instead he wants us to be united by our faith. Why has Christianity split so much? We are probably the most fragmented religion in the world.

You bring up a good point. We see by those emails that were leaked who the real target of the liberals (and the devil) is…the Catholic Church. The devil knows that Jesus Christ and His Church are One and the Same. The liberals are just doing what protestantism does…separate Jesus Christ from His Church.

The liberals who dissent from teachings of Jesus put forth their own version of Jesus and then say that the Catholic Church is bigoted, intolerant, homophobic, etc. They take their cue from protestants who also separate Jesus from His Church, the Catholic Church but use different language …the Catholic Church is a lie, whore of Babylon, accuse Catholics of idolatry, etc. Their claim of having a personal relationship with Jesus is appealing to liberals who dissent from teachings of Jesus so seek to blame the Church. In actuality the protestant notion of a personal relationship with Jesus is really just seeking their own personal Jesus.

While division within Christianity is unfortunate there is a positive way to look at it. It is telling that in some ways protestants, non Christians and atheists are all aligned in array against the Catholic Church. Very much an evidence of the Truth of Jesus Christ and His Church.

 

[Peter_J]

We see by those emails that were leaked who the real target of the liberals (and the devil) is…the Catholic Church.

I haven’t read every single post here. Are we talking about the Screwtape Emails?

 

[MichaelP3]

I haven’t read every single post here. Are we talking about the Screwtape Emails?

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by TC3033 View Post
… there are some Catholics that hold the same beliefs (that if you’re not Catholic, you’re a hell-bound sinner) that yourself are condemning another Christian for having. I have run into it myself.end quote

There’s quite a lot that I run into frequently online, but rarely offline. I think that tells you something.

For the RECORD, here is what the RCC teaches

FROM THE CATECHISM OF THE RCC

CCC 1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

CCC 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

CCC 848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

God Bless you

 

[MichaelP3]

Made me chuckle a little, what’s funny (or ironic) growing up in a non-denominational church is that I saw all Christians as an equal brother in Christ.

It was only going to Mass with my wife that I learned that there are some Catholics that hold the same beliefs (that if you’re not Catholic, you’re a hell-bound sinner) that yourself are condemning another Christian for having. I have run into it myself.

Of course, these are normally older individuals that spent more time in the church pre Vatican II, but none the less…

Same here. I never even thought of Catholics in any lesser sense. Maybe because nobody ever told me to do that. Or just because we actually believe all Christians are well … Christians.

My studies led me to understand we are all “basically hell bound” except for our "imperfect relationship with Christ through the Catholic Church " basically either direct via previous Catachism versions or implicitly via current Catachism versions. We can find very charitable Catholics who won’t say these things. It is still stated in some way somewhere.

Although I never learned this through a mass. There I would find the parishioners very charitable.

 

[ChaosGamma]

(Speaking my own non-Catholic thoughts here)

Ecumenism is the idea that a Catholic priest talks to the leaders of some other faith, and then those leaders inform their congregants that they are all going to abandon their previous beliefs and become Catholic. It is a horrible degrading concept rooted in pride.

I don’t see how. If Religion A and Religion B have contradictory teachings and Religion A is true then simple logic dictates that Religion B is not true. If you believe you have the truth why would you want others to remain in error? And if you don’t believe you have the truth, why are you not seeking it out?

It is not Christian “unity”-- unity would imply that red and yellow to make orange.

Actually, that sounds like syncretism to me. We’ll take a little from Calvin, a little from Joseph Smith, a little from Gautama, stir…

Rather, the goal of ecumenism is to eliminate yellow and only have red.

Rather, I should say, the goal of ecumenism is to determine what is true and bring all men to that truth.

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks MichaelP3 .

Screwtape Emails

Emails aside, though, sometimes I get a little confused as to whether it’s the liberals and the devil, or the atheists and homosexuals.

 

[Peter_J]

Same here. I never even thought of Catholics in any lesser sense. Maybe because nobody ever told me to do that. Or just because we actually believe all Christians are well … Christians.

My studies led me to understand we are all “basically hell bound” except for our "imperfect relationship with Christ through the Catholic Church " basically either direct via previous Catachism versions or implicitly via current Catachism versions. We can find very charitable Catholics who won’t say these things. It is still stated in some way somewhere.

Although I never learned this through a mass. There I would find the parishioners very charitable.

I think one of our Lutheran brothers would say “the Church Catholic”. (See, I do pay attention … sometimes. )

 

[jane_doe]

I don’t see how. If Religion A and Religion B have contradictory teachings and Religion A is true then simple logic dictates that Religion B is not true. If you believe you have the truth why would you want others to remain in error? And if you don’t believe you have the truth, why are you not seeking it out?.

I have nothing against the idea of people sharing what they believe is true and shining that light. In fact, I’m a huge proponent of such an idea. If you want to convict 300 Methodists of the truthfulness of the Catholic faith (just 2 random example faiths), and then go sit down with 300 individuals, have 300 individual sponsors for RCIA, and make 300 individual seats in your Catholic church, that’s fantastic.

“Ecumenism” is not what I described above. It is all not “unifying” Christianity: it is deleting all non-Catholic beliefs.

Rather, I should say, the goal of ecumenism is to determine what is true and bring all men to that truth.

Are you willing to admit that some of your beliefs are false and adopt some one else’s True beliefs? Or is the the goal of ecumenism is to inform people that Catholics beliefs are what is true?

 

[Horton]

Same here. I never even thought of Catholics in any lesser sense. Maybe because nobody ever told me to do that. Or just because we actually believe all Christians are well … Christians.

My studies led me to understand we are all “basically hell bound” except for our "imperfect relationship with Christ through the Catholic Church " basically either direct via previous Catachism versions or implicitly via current Catachism versions. We can find very charitable Catholics who won’t say these things. It is still stated in some way somewhere.

Although I never learned this through a mass. There I would find the parishioners very charitable.

I don’t know exactly what you are studying but the Catholic Church does not teach this. Maybe you take a look at some sources that aren’t anti Catholic to get the truth of what the church teaches.

 

[TC3033]

There’s quite a lot that I run into frequently online, but rarely offline. I think that tells you something.

Ya, I’ve run into it both online and offline.

IRL, it’s usually people that are “older” that’ll give me grief. I’ve sometimes wondered if learning the faith pre Vatican II has anything to do with that.

Don’t get me wrong, it hasn’t been a common occurrence, probably 3-5 times tops.