Uniting the split body

[Vera_Icon]

“Ecumenism” is not what I described above. It is all not “unifying” Christianity: it is deleting all non-Catholic beliefs.

Are you willing to admit that some of your beliefs are false and adopt some one else’s True beliefs? Or is the the goal of ecumenism is to inform people that Catholics beliefs are what is true?

Valid question

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks MichaelP3 .

Screwtape Emails

Emails aside, though, sometimes I get a little confused as to whether it’s the liberals and the devil, or the atheists and homosexuals.

P.S. Had to go back and reread earlier posts. Turns out that “gays and atheists” are the ones who take control of the popular media and brainwash others. Whereas the liberals and the devil are the ones whose real target is the Catholic Church (as the leaked emails reveal).

What people probably don’t realize is how much Eleanor H. Porter’s Pollyanna, published in 1913, set the stage for all this with its “GLAD game”.

 

[Peter_J]

What people probably don’t realize is how much Eleanor H. Porter’s Pollyanna, published in 1913, set the stage for all this with its “GLAD game”.

(Knowing how difficult *humor *is on an IDF, let me point out that those are the initials of the words gays liberals atheists and devil. )

 

[MichaelP3]

I don’t know exactly what you are studying but the Catholic Church does not teach this. Maybe you take a look at some sources that aren’t anti Catholic to get the truth of what the church teaches.

You presume too much!

Firstly because you don’t know me, secondly, you obviously have not “seen” or read any of my previous posts considering your reply. Just because someone says the things I said does not automatically assume “he is reading anti-Catholic material” or “someone just told him so” or “he doesn’t understand”. Please think before you post.

So to get to the point, if by my anti-Catholic sources you mean, let me quote from them

The Roman Catechism published in 1566 under the authority of the Council of Trent.

*She is also called universal, because all who desire eternal salvation must cling to and embrace her, like those who entered the ark to escape perishing in the flood… This (note of catholicity), therefore, is to be taught as a most reliable criterion, by which to distinguish the true from a false Church. *

The Catechism of Saint Pius X

*12 Q: The many societies of persons who are baptized but who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not, then, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ?

A: No, those who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.*

*27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.*

Catechism of the Catholic Church

*“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the
Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all
salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his
Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the
Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one
Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in
his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the
necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time
the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as
through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the
Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ,
would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 *

So again, please don’t presume.

 

[Horton]

You presume too much!

Firstly because you don’t know me, secondly, you obviously have not “seen” or read any of my previous posts considering your reply. Just because someone says the things I said does not automatically assume “he is reading anti-Catholic material” or “someone just told him so” or “he doesn’t understand”. Please think before you post.

So to get to the point, if by my anti-Catholic sources you mean, let me quote from them

The Roman Catechism published in 1566 under the authority of the Council of Trent.

*She is also called universal, because all who desire eternal salvation must cling to and embrace her, like those who entered the ark to escape perishing in the flood… This (note of catholicity), therefore, is to be taught as a most reliable criterion, by which to distinguish the true from a false Church. *

The Catechism of Saint Pius X

*12 Q: The many societies of persons who are baptized but who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not, then, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ?

A: No, those who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.*

*27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.*

Catechism of the Catholic Church

*“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the
Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all
salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his
Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the
Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one
Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in
his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the
necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time
the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as
through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the
Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ,
would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 *

So again, please don’t presume.

You appear to be a very angry man.

 

[Peter_J]

You presume too much!

Maybe you presume too little!



Things were a lot different in past centuries – in **both **directions. You should see some of the things that Protestants said about Catholics.

 

[MichaelP3]

Maybe you presume too little!



Things were a lot different in past centuries – in **both **directions. You should see some of the things that Protestants said about Catholics.

True for the past centuries. (Not the presumption part, the poster obviously has never read any messages which directly answered the objection) Which is why I came right through to the current Catechism. Problem is Protestants can say “we were a bit emotional and maybe a bit harsh in our statements, forgive those souls”. Catholics however are not that fortunate because it “was the one true truth that cannot change”.

I am not defending Protestant writers, many of them were idiots imo. But the other way around one would need to say something changed ,but it can’t, so rather these days “re-interpreted” as a way to get of the hook.

PS. This is not directed at you in any way, you have always been very charitable.

 

[Peter_J]

True for the past centuries. (Not the presumption part, the poster obviously has never read any messages which directly answered the objection) Which is why I came right through to the current Catechism.

Good point, you did quote the following:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the
Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all
salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his
Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the
Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one
Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in
his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the
necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time
the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as
through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the
Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ,
would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

I guess we could argue about saying “the Catholic Church” versus saying “the Church Catholic” (LutheranScholar is the one who’s big on that point IIRC), but other than that … .

True for the past centuries. (Not the presumption part, the poster obviously has never read any messages which directly answered the objection) Which is why I came right through to the current Catechism.

Problem is Protestants can say “we were a bit emotional and maybe a bit harsh in our statements, forgive those souls”. Catholics however are not that fortunate because it “was the one true truth that cannot change”.

Previously, on CAF, I mentioned Scott Hahn’s comment about “a fallible list of infallible statements”. But I think it bears repeating.

you have always been very charitable.

Oh you Protestants. shaw:

 

[PJM]

quote

Originally Posted by jane_doe View Post
“Ecumenism” is not what I described above. It is all not “unifying” Christianity: it is deleting all non-Catholic beliefs.

Are you willing to admit that some of your beliefs are false and adopt some one else’s True beliefs? Or is the the goal of ecumenism is to inform people that Catholics beliefs are what is true? end quote

Valid question

Than permit me to reply to it.

As it seems prudent to st establish a foundation for our discussion, CAN WE agree on the following?

Ps.145 Verses 17 to 18 “
[17] The LORD is just in all his ways, and kind in all his doings.
[18] The LORD is near to all who call upon him,
to all who call upon him in truth.

Dictionary Definition of “Truth”
The true or actual state of a matter:

1. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
2. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
   3. the state or character of being true.
   4. actuality or actual existence.
   5. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
   6. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
   7. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived
   experience:
   8. agreement with a standard or original.
   9… accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
   10. Archaic. Fidelity or constancy.
   TEN REALITIES of a single truth

Fr. John A. Hardon S.J.
“Truth” is the condition of grace; it is the source of grace; it is the channel of grace, it is the divinely ordained requirement of grace.”

In Georges Bernanos’ Diary of a Country Priest, the elderly Curé de Torcy gives his young priest friend a bit of advice about proclaiming the Gospel: “The Word of God is a red-hot iron,” he says. “Truth is meant to save you first, and the comfort comes later.”

“Truth” logically and morally can be nothing other than singular per defined issue; AGREED?

If not we have no basis for further discussion

Secondly we must proceed with specific examples, that can then be addressed by both parties

Third this is a “off topic” so If YOU wish we can continue this discussion by privates messages; you’re call.

I’m a trained and experienced Catholic Catechist {teacher}, and look forward to your reply.

God Bless you

Patrick {PJM} here on CAF

 

[jane_doe]

quote

Originally Posted by jane_doe View Post
“Ecumenism” is not what I described above. It is all not “unifying” Christianity: it is deleting all non-Catholic beliefs.

Are you willing to admit that some of your beliefs are false and adopt some one else’s True beliefs? Or is the the goal of ecumenism is to inform people that Catholics beliefs are what is true? end quote

Than permit me to reply to it…
(Jane shortening this for length)

PJM, with all due respect, your post doesn’t really address my original question. No one was arguing that there is one Truth, I think we can all agree on that (though we disagree on what that Truth is).

 

[PJM]

quoteOriginally Posted by Horton View Post
I don’t know exactly what you are studying but the Catholic Church does not teach this. Maybe you take a look at some sources that aren’t anti Catholic to get the truth of what the church teachesend quote

Hi Michael,

You presume too much!

Firstly because you don’t know me, secondly, you obviously have not “seen” or read any of my previous posts considering your reply. Just because someone says the things I said does not automatically assume “he is reading anti-Catholic material” or “someone just told him so” or “he doesn’t understand”. Please think before you post.

So to get to the point, if by my anti-Catholic sources you mean, let me quote from them

The Roman Catechism published in 1566 under the authority of the Council of Trent

While being aware on the conciliator documents of TRENT, I had no knowledge of a Catechism issues by TRENT, so I GOOGLED IT

books.google.com/books?id=kFosAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA759&lpg=PA759&dq=the+catholic+catechism+of+1556&source=bl&ots=FiqxelFO3r&sig=nm5ozXdzHg0LwFCG3pclcNKJXjc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGm-WMyfbPAhWM4SYKHSMJBZEQ6AEIQzAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false.

And I’m NOT at all sure that this is what you claim it to be?

*She is also called universal, because all who desire eternal salvation must cling to and embrace her, like those who entered the ark to escape perishing in the flood… This (note of catholicity), therefore, is to be taught as a most reliable criterion, by which to distinguish the true from a false Church. *

WHILE THIS IS FOUNDATIONALLY TRUE, it’s UNDERSTANDING based on on

1 Tim. 2:4; Mk 13:13 & Mt 24:13; HAS been highly conditioned as expressed in the Catechism of the RCC, #'s 1260, 846-848, expanded to include the POSSIBILITY of others meriting salvation as well

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

The Base Teaching REMAINS UNCHANGED becaiuse

1 There CAN BE but one True God

1. One GOD can have nothing other than 1 set of faith beliefs
2. Through “MY CHURCH” Mt 16:18 singular; Jn 17:17-20; Mt 28:19-20 {singular tense}

4 TRUTH can be nothing other than singular per defined issue

The Catechism of Saint Pius X

*12 Q: The many societies of persons who are baptized but who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not, then, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ?

A: No, those who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ.*

CORRECT as stated, for the REASONS given above

NOWHERE in the bible, NOT 1 time can it be shown that GOD; Yahweh or Jesus EVER permitted, tolerated, accepted, allowed or looked the other way on ANY other faith beliefs OTHER than those taught and entrusted to the Apostles and their successors:shrug:

Mt 28:19-20 is direct, clear and exclusively to the RCC

[19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever** I have commanded YOU**: and behold **I am with YOU/SIZE] all days, even to the consummation of the world".

*27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.*

AGAIN TRUE AS STATED in these sense that ALL salvation HAs to and DOES FLOW through the RCC, as the Only Faith and Church founded, desired, guided and protected by both the HS and Jesus.

Catechism of the Catholic Church I PJM ADDED THIS: {see also 1260, 846-848 at the above site provided

*“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the
Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all
salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his
Body:Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the
Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one
Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in
his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the
necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time
the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as
through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the
Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ,
would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 *

So again, please don’t presume.

NO presumptions here on MY part:

So why my friend DID you leave it?

God Bless you, have you read and understood Heb 6:1-8?

PJM**

 

[PJM]

quoteOriginally Posted by PJM View Post
quote

Originally Posted by jane_doe View Post
“Ecumenism” is not what I described above. It is all not “unifying” Christianity: it is deleting all non-Catholic beliefs.

Are you willing to admit that some of your beliefs are false and adopt some one else’s True beliefs? Or is the the goal of ecumenism is to inform people that Catholics beliefs are what is true? end quote

Than permit me to reply to it…
(Jane shortening this for length)end quote

PJM, with all due respect, your post doesn’t really address my original question. No one was arguing that there is one Truth, I think we can all agree on that (though we disagree on what that Truth is).

OK so we have a basis for an intelligent discussion so LONG as we agree that TRUTH can ONLY be singular per defined issue.

So IF you will be specific on exactly what is THEE Truth per defined issue, we can proceed:thumbsup:

GBY

PJM

 

[MichaelP3]

quoteOriginally Posted by Horton View Post
I don’t know exactly what you are studying but the Catholic Church does not teach this. Maybe you take a look at some sources that aren’t anti Catholic to get the truth of what the church teachesend quote

Hi Michael,

While being aware on the conciliator documents of TRENT, I had no knowledge of a Catechism issues by TRENT, so I GOOGLED IT

books.google.com/books?id=kFosAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA759&lpg=PA759&dq=the+catholic+catechism+of+1556&source=bl&ots=FiqxelFO3r&sig=nm5ozXdzHg0LwFCG3pclcNKJXjc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGm-WMyfbPAhWM4SYKHSMJBZEQ6AEIQzAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false.

And I’m NOT at all sure that this is what you claim it to be?

WHILE THIS IS FOUNDATIONALLY TRUE, it’s UNDERSTANDING based on on

1 Tim. 2:4; Mk 13:13 & Mt 24:13; HAS been highly conditioned as expressed in the Catechism of the RCC, #'s 1260, 846-848, expanded to include the POSSIBILITY of others meriting salvation as well

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

The Base Teaching REMAINS UNCHANGED becaiuse

1 There CAN BE but one True God

1. One GOD can have nothing other than 1 set of faith beliefs
2. Through “MY CHURCH” Mt 16:18 singular; Jn 17:17-20; Mt 28:19-20 {singular tense}

4 TRUTH can be nothing other than singular per defined issue

CORRECT as stated, for the REASONS given above

NOWHERE in the bible, NOT 1 time can it be shown that GOD; Yahweh or Jesus EVER permitted, tolerated, accepted, allowed or looked the other way on ANY other faith beliefs OTHER than those taught and entrusted to the Apostles and their successors:shrug:

Mt 28:19-20 is direct, clear and exclusively to the RCC

[19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever** I have commanded YOU**: and behold I am with YOU/SIZE] all days, even to the consummation of the world".

*27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.*

AGAIN TRUE AS STATED in these sense that ALL salvation HAs to and DOES FLOW through the RCC, as the Only Faith and Church founded, desired, guided and protected by both the HS and Jesus.

Catechism of the Catholic Church I PJM ADDED THIS: {see also 1260, 846-848 at the above site provided

NO presumptions here on MY part:

So why my friend DID you leave it?

God Bless you, have you read and understood Heb 6:1-8?

PJM

Hi PJM

I sigh every time I see such a long message from you. No offence, but it really makes me think “do I need to read all this”. I know I have another one to respond to, will do so in due time, when my stamina permits it.

You went on and on about how it is all okay and true and nothing is wrong, thats okay. I didn’t expect any different knowing your line of answering. (Although I think you are helping Horton a bit much here, wanted him to think a bit).

One can come with special linguistics on what it should mean and so on, that’s okay. I prefer to believe that part, I don’t want to be damned for not being Catholic. But do you seriously believe NOTHING in history contradicts this. I did state we are all BASICALLY hellbound, I knew of all this before and what someone like you would say. It’s all a loophole stating but this excluding that including this. Let’s just take it for what it is, without having a document longer then the Catechism itself defending it.

I can imagine myself the council of trent sitting there “They are okay, they can be saved, they have a good heart and love Christ”. No I can absolutely not. So let’s leave the special “loopholes”.

The current one I quoted because it is there and serves as a proof of the contradictory thought. And to the very end and purpose of my entire post, my sources are CATHOLIC sources. Either an Authoritative one (like the catechism) or just normal Catholic writers. It is much easier for my conscience to study these.

Oh and PJM, you are a cool guy, no disrespect in any way! Just attempting to answer.

 

[jane_doe]

quoteOriginally Posted by PJM View Post
quote

Originally Posted by jane_doe View Post
“Ecumenism” is not what I described above. It is all not “unifying” Christianity: it is deleting all non-Catholic beliefs.

Are you willing to admit that some of your beliefs are false and adopt some one else’s True beliefs? Or is the the goal of ecumenism is to inform people that Catholics beliefs are what is true? end quote

Than permit me to reply to it…
(Jane shortening this for length)end quote

OK so we have a basis for an intelligent discussion so LONG as we agree that TRUTH can ONLY be singular per defined issue.

So IF you will be specific on exactly what is THEE Truth per defined issue, we can proceed:thumbsup:

GBY

PJM

I wasn’t asking whether or not there is one Truth. As previously stated, I think we already agree on that.

I’m specifically asking are you willing to concede the possibility that some of your beliefs may not be Truth? (I’m using generic “you” for all of this post)

If not, then “ecumenism” is not honest two-way conversations about Truth, because you’re going into it already decided that everything you believe is True and any deviance from that is False. You are not there to have a honest two-way conversation: you are there solely to inform the other party they are wrong.

 

[Peter_J]

I wasn’t asking whether or not there is one Truth. As previously stated, I think we already agree on that.

I’m specifically asking are you willing to concede the possibility that some of your beliefs may not be Truth? (I’m using generic “you” for all of this post)

If not, then “ecumenism” is not honest two-way conversations about Truth, because you’re going into it already decided that everything you believe is True and any deviance from that is False. You are not there to have a honest two-way conversation: you are there solely to inform the other party they are wrong.

This is one reason I try to remember to get off-forum once and a while to see what’s happening “IRL”.

Turns out there’s this council, among other things.

 

[Horton]

Hi PJM

I sigh every time I see such a long message from you. No offence, but it really makes me think “do I need to read all this”. I know I have another one to respond to, will do so in due time, when my stamina permits it.

You went on and on about how it is all okay and true and nothing is wrong, thats okay. I didn’t expect any different knowing your line of answering.** (Although I think you are helping Horton a bit much here, wanted him to think a bit).
**
One can come with special linguistics on what it should mean and so on, that’s okay. I prefer to believe that part, I don’t want to be damned for not being Catholic. But do you seriously believe NOTHING in history contradicts this. I did state we are all BASICALLY hellbound, I knew of all this before and what someone like you would say. It’s all a loophole stating but this excluding that including this. Let’s just take it for what it is, without having a document longer then the Catechism itself defending it.

I can imagine myself the council of trent sitting there “They are okay, they can be saved, they have a good heart and love Christ”. No I can absolutely not. So let’s leave the special “loopholes”.

The current one I quoted because it is there and serves as a proof of the contradictory thought. And to the very end and purpose of my entire post, my sources are CATHOLIC sources. Either an Authoritative one (like the catechism) or just normal Catholic writers. It is much easier for my conscience to study these.

Oh and PJM, you are a cool guy, no disrespect in any way! Just attempting to answer.

So any answer will be unsatisfactory for you? It won’t matter what the answer is because your belief is the Catholic Church teaches ALL non-Catholics are hell bound. I converted to the Catholic Church and have been on RCIA teams in every parish I’ve been in and this belief has never been taught. What has been taught is God’s mercy is infinite and we can’t know who is or isn’t in heaven. I know you’ll come back with an answer to try to prove you right, me wrong. OK, but I’m done with your condescending posts. I have enough to think about without some guy from the internet telling me what I need to think about. BTW I’m a she.

 

[Horton]

Are you willing to admit that some of your beliefs are false and adopt some one else’s True beliefs? Or is the the goal of ecumenism is to inform people that Catholics beliefs are what is true?

How can we admit any of our beliefs are false when we know with everything we are that they are absolute truth. There is no ambiguity with the Catholic Church. We (we collectively not individually) know what is knowable and the rest is the mystery.

I will never admit any of beliefs in the Catholic Church are false. There may be some I dislike but I know they are true.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi PJM

I sigh every time I see such a long message from you. No offence, but it really makes me think “do I need to read all this”. I know I have another one to respond to, will do so in due time, when my stamina permits it.

You went on and on about how it is all okay and true and nothing is wrong, thats okay. I didn’t expect any different knowing your line of answering. (Although I think you are helping Horton a bit much here, wanted him to think a bit).

One can come with special linguistics on what it should mean and so on, that’s okay. I prefer to believe that part, I don’t want to be damned for not being Catholic. But do you seriously believe NOTHING in history contradicts this. I did state we are all BASICALLY hellbound, I knew of all this before and what someone like you would say. It’s all a loophole stating but this excluding that including this. Let’s just take it for what it is, without having a document longer then the Catechism itself defending it.

I can imagine myself the council of trent sitting there “They are okay, they can be saved, they have a good heart and love Christ”. No I can absolutely not. So let’s leave the special “loopholes”.

The current one I quoted because it is there and serves as a proof of the contradictory thought. And to the very end and purpose of my entire post, my sources are CATHOLIC sources. Either an Authoritative one (like the catechism) or just normal Catholic writers. It is much easier for my conscience to study these.

Oh and PJM, you are a cool guy, no disrespect in any way! Just attempting to answer.

Hi Michael

Theoretically, if there is a true Church established by Jesus, that is THE(not in part, but THE) Pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) and was handed the keys by our Lord (Matt 16) shouldn’t said Church conduct itself accordingly? Meaning no budging on eternal Truths and demanding it’s adherents believe in them to attain salvation?

Because w/o that you have no unity and you have only partial truth. And in some cases there is just flat out heresy.

In the NT we see very strong and uncompromising language:

Galatians 1:8New International Version (NIV)

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

I think if Paul lived in this day and age they would send him to sensitivity training.

But back to my point, how should the RCC conduct it’s business if she is, indeed, who she says she is?

 

[MichaelP3]

So any answer will be unsatisfactory for you? It won’t matter what the answer is because your belief is the Catholic Church teaches ALL non-Catholics are hell bound. I converted to the Catholic Church and have been on RCIA teams in every parish I’ve been in and this belief has never been taught. What has been taught is God’s mercy is infinite and we can’t know who is or isn’t in heaven. I know you’ll come back with an answer to try to prove you right, me wrong. OK, but I’m done with your condescending posts. I have enough to think about without some guy from the internet telling me what I need to think about. BTW I’m a she.

First of all, my sincere apologies for referring to you as a he

Just to clarify. I did not say or state the Catholic church thinks that. I used the word BASICALLY all the time. And secondly I agree 100% that is not what will be said in a homily or even believed by individual Catholics.

And I am not coming back with an answer to prove I am right. I just quoted the very Catachisms issued by this same Church and my questioning on the consistency. Even if not agreeing with me, you must understand why I would find something isn’t right.

Again my utmost apologies if I offended you.

 

[PJM]

Hi PJM

I sigh every time I see such a long message from you. No offence, but it really makes me think “do I need to read all this”. I know I have another one to respond to, will do so in due time, when my stamina permits it.

Hi again Michael,

I do apologize for the inconvenience the length of my post cause you; but such are not without a cause…

I attempt to share objective truths; and as such the evidence of my stated positions seems not merely warranted, but actually essential.; so I beg you tolerance

You went on and on about how it is all okay and true and nothing is wrong, thats okay. I didn’t expect any different knowing your line of answering. (Although I think you are helping Horton a bit much here, wanted him to think a bit).

One can come with special linguistics on what it should mean and so on, that’s okay. I prefer to believe that part, I don’t want to be damned for not being Catholic. But do you seriously believe NOTHING in history contradicts this. I did state we are all BASICALLY hellbound, I knew of all this before and what someone like you would say. It’s all a loophole stating but this excluding that including this. Let’s just take it for what it is, without having a document longer then the Catechism itself defending it.

So Michael, IF as you postulate; “we ARE all pretty much hell bound” {a position that puzzles ME};

WHY did God God bother to create us? {Isiah 43: 7 & 21}

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

And WHY was humanity created in the “Image of God” {Gen. 1:26-27 & John 4:23-24}

I can imagine myself the council of trent sitting there “They are okay, they can be saved, they have a good heart and love Christ”. No I can absolutely not. So let’s leave the special “loopholes”

.

WHAT "loopholes?}

The current one I quoted because it is there and serves as a proof of the contradictory thought. And to the very end and purpose of my entire post, my sources are CATHOLIC sources. Either an Authoritative one (like the catechism) or just normal Catholic writers. It is much easier for my conscience to study these.

OK, let’s make it easier on you. Here is the CCC on one;s conscience:

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

Oh and PJM, you are a cool guy, no disrespect in any way! Just attempting to answer.

Thanks so much:thumbsup:

God Bless you

Patrick {PJM}