Uniting the split body

[PJM]

I wasn’t asking whether or not there is one Truth. As previously stated, I think we already agree on that.

I’m specifically asking are you willing to concede the possibility that some of your beliefs may not be Truth? (I’m using generic “you” for all of this post)

If not, then “ecumenism” is not honest two-way conversations about Truth, because you’re going into it already decided that everything you believe is True and any deviance from that is False. You are not there to have a honest two-way conversation: you are there solely to inform the other party they are wrong.

I’m certainly agreeable to discussing it, if you’re specific, so that I CAN respond in kind.

I can neither respond too, or explain generalities; only specifics, and am grateful for the opportunity to do so.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Hi Michael

Theoretically, if there is a true Church established by Jesus, that is THE(not in part, but THE) Pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15) and was handed the keys by our Lord (Matt 16) shouldn’t said Church conduct itself accordingly? Meaning no budging on eternal Truths and demanding it’s adherents believe in them to attain salvation?

Because w/o that you have no unity and you have only partial truth. And in some cases there is just flat out heresy.

In the NT we see very strong and uncompromising language:

I think if Paul lived in this day and age they would send him to sensitivity training.

But back to my point, how should the RCC conduct it’s business if she is, indeed, who she says she is?

Nicely done! Thanks:thumbsup:

GBY

 

[jane_doe]

I’m certainly agreeable to discussing it, if you’re specific, so that I CAN respond in kind.

Specific question: are you willing to admit that some of your beliefs may be false?

Horton has already declared his/her answer to be “no”. But I know that there is substantial variety in Catholics.

 

[Horton]

Specific question: are you willing to admit that some of your beliefs may be false?

Horton has already declared his/her answer to be “no”. But I know that there is substantial variety in Catholics.

Jane - So what are you willing to admit what is false in your religion? What beliefs are willing to say JS got wrong, along with all who came after him?

I don’t believe you are going to find informed practicing Catholics who will state some of their beliefs regarding the Catholic Church are wrong. To deny the Truth of the Catholic Church is to deny what Christ established. There will always be the “used to be” Catholics, the cinos, the C&E Catholics who will tell you the Catholic Church is not the fullness of faith. But in all reality what they are fighting is not the Truth of the Catholic Church but their unwillingness or inability to submit to the Church, their unwillingness to be obedient. By submission and obedience I don’t mean the stepford wives type of obedience, making one’s faith an exact copy of everyone else’s, but submitting our lives to God’s call for us and being obedient to God to do what He calls us to do.

 

[Horton]

First of all, my sincere apologies for referring to you as a he

Just to clarify. I did not say or state the Catholic church thinks that. I used the word BASICALLY all the time. And secondly I agree 100% that is not what will be said in a homily or even believed by individual Catholics.

And I am not coming back with an answer to prove I am right. I just quoted the very Catachisms issued by this same Church and my questioning on the consistency. Even if not agreeing with me, you must understand why I would find something isn’t right.

Again my utmost apologies if I offended you.

Maybe if you really wanted an answer you would have asked rather the just say we are wrong.

 

[MichaelP3]

Maybe if you really wanted an answer you would have asked rather the just say we are wrong.

In all fairness, you did accuse me of being wrong and just assuming my sources are anti-catholic writing. But thats in the past and my apologies again.

 

[Peter_J]

Specific question: are you willing to admit that some of your beliefs may be false?

This question is the fundamental Catch-22 that “traditionalist Catholics” love to stick ecumenically-minded Catholics with. (Admittedly I’m basing this largely on my experience on the CA forums, but I believe this is true IRL as well.)

 

[MichaelP3]

Hi again Michael,

I do apologize for the inconvenience the length of my post cause you; but such are not without a cause…

I attempt to share objective truths; and as such the evidence of my stated positions seems not merely warranted, but actually essential.; so I beg you tolerance

I understand, just forgive me if I fail to understand what you are saying/asking.

So Michael, IF as you postulate; “we ARE all pretty much hell bound” {a position that puzzles ME};

WHY did God God bother to create us? {Isiah 43: 7 & 21}

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

And WHY was humanity created in the “Image of God” {Gen. 1:26-27 & John 4:23-24}

I see you quote scripture, and I think it is a fair question to ask if the contributors to those documents saw it the same way? (Though I generally wonder if they even read the Bible, in those days anyone became a Bishop depending if your family had the larger army, more power or something related, but that’s my opinion)

The scripture passages talk about truth and persevering to the end. So I ask, according to you, or the Catholic Church, what is this TRUTH or this END (I know the answer, just showing its subjective and imo doesn’t prove the alternative)

Lastly on this one, the documents are pretty clear, but then there is a discussion on interpreting them. So if we take a probability scale from 1 to 10. 1 being damned and 10 being heaven, where do we all fit in. Am I a two then and true Catholics are an 8. Or can God decide for himself and for some reason I can be a 9 (Without confession, the Eucharist and believing in the Dogmas). Then I wonder what is the purpose of them? But then I hear God is not subjected to the Sacraments, then my question again?

WHAT "loopholes?}

Although I am a Chemical Engineer and working, I am in my second year of law now. (Maybe I have too much free time, I don’t know). But what I am getting to, these arguments always make me think of the cases and verdicts I study. It always comes down to the loophole.

I didn’t write this but it is what I mean.

“It is too often asserted by Roman Catholics that their church never contradicted itself, but which claim is made under the premise that only infallible statements count, and that Rome defines what a contradiction is, as she has infallibly defined herself as possessing assured infallibility, whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and content-based) criteria.”

So looking at the above, nothing has been done wrong, all the laws have been followed, but who are you fooling? The Catholic Church is an integrity institution, just because you came up with a “thing” to save yourself doesn’t absolve you. I liken this to TAX avoidance. You may have done it legally, but it puts a question on your integrity.

OK, let’s make it easier on you. Here is the CCC on one;s conscience:

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the** true good** willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

I bolded the ambiguous parts for you. Everyone of them taking that probability a step down for me. Or I am just invincibly ignorant.

Thanks so much:thumbsup:

God Bless you

Patrick {PJM}

 

[PJM]

I understand, just forgive me if I fail to understand what you are saying/asking.

I see you quote scripture, and I think it is a fair question to ask if the contributors to those documents saw it the same way? (Though I generally wonder if they even read the Bible, in those days anyone became a Bishop depending if your family had the larger army, more power or something related, but that’s my opinion)

Michael, I can only respond if and when you provide specific examples; otherwise I’m just guessing, and that is not conductive to an intelligent discussion

The scripture passages talk about truth and persevering to the end. So I ask, according to you, or the Catholic Church, what is this TRUTH or this END (I know the answer, just showing its subjective and imo doesn’t prove the alternative)

The “END” is literal meaning to the “instant of our physical death and the IMMEDIATED Judgment”

This “TRUTH” is:

1. That “THERE CANNOT BE YOUR TRUTH AND MY TRUTH OR THERE WOULD BE NO TRUTH” {Pope Benedict XVI
2. So TRUTH in order to be THE truth can only be singular per defined issue:thumbsup:

{QUOTE]Lastly on this one, the documents are pretty clear, but then there is a discussion on interpreting them. So if we take a probability scale from 1 to 10. 1 being damned and 10 being heaven, where do we all fit in. Am I a two then and true Catholics are an 8. Or can God decide for himself and for some reason I can be a 9 (Without confession, the Eucharist and believing in the Dogmas). Then I wonder what is the purpose of them? But then I hear God is not subjected to the Sacraments, then my question again?

WOW That’s profound.

Here is a siye for the Catholic Catechism; PLEASE search #'s
1260
846
847
848
for a more complete and detailed answer of our Catholic beliefs.

IN DOING SO however KNOW also that God, in order to BE God; MUST and will pass final Judgment upon each and every Soul based NOT on what WE choose to accept and believe; RATHER it will and must be on WHAT He,as God , Has made POSSIBLE for us to kn ow and believe.

The 7 Sacraments ARE the Catholic Advantage, and foreseen as such by Christ Himself

They include both the ONLY Known forgiveness of sins {John 20:19-23}; other methods are at BEST only Hoped for effects; not at ALL assuredvas they ARE NOT God’s way, but very human and recent inventions:shrug:

Although I am a Chemical Engineer and working, I am in my second year of law now. (Maybe I have too much free time, I don’t know). But what I am getting to, these arguments always make me think of the cases and verdicts I study. It always comes down to the loophole

THE ONLY “LOOPHOLES” ARE THOSE INVENTED AND PROVIDED BY GOD THROUGH HIS ONE GOD, FAITH AND CHURCH { Orthodox included in this}… Period and AMEN!

NO-where can it be proven that GOD even one time approved, tolerated, desired or in ANY manner accepted or overlooked ANY competing sets of faith belief

ONLY:

One true God

Even GOD can have but one set of Faith beliefs a remain GOD

In and through HIS One Church, which he as GOD could not have waited for Wycliffe, Henry, Luther, Calvin or Wesley; more than 1,000 years to share with HIS humanity… such would be impossible for GOD.

I didn’t write this but it is what I mean.

“It is too often asserted by Roman Catholics that their church never contradicted itself, but which claim is made under the premise that only infallible statements count, and that Rome defines what a contradiction is, as she has infallibly defined herself as possessing assured infallibility, whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and content-based) criteria.”

That’s NICE It MIGHT even possibly be true:shrug: BUT without specifics its meaningless. While I’m an Informed and fully practicing RC, GOD has yet to make Me a mid-reader. Please be specific, and I will TRY to respond in kind.

So looking at the above, nothing has been done wrong, all the laws have been followed, but who are you fooling? The Catholic Church is an integrity institution, just because you came up with a “thing” to save yourself doesn’t absolve you. I liken this to TAX avoidance. You may have done it legally, but it puts a question on your integrity.

Again my friend Michael, without further details, I am unable P{never unwilling} to respond.

God Bless you

Patrick

I bolded the ambiguous parts for you. Everyone of them taking that probability a step down for me. Or I am just invincibly ignorant.

Thank YOU

I don’t find you ignorant, only lacking specifics that I AM able to respond too.

 

[TC3033]

Same here. I never even thought of Catholics in any lesser sense. Maybe because **nobody ever told me to do that. Or just because we actually believe all Christians are well … Christians. **

My studies led me to understand *we are all “basically hell bound” except for our "imperfect relationship with Christ through the Catholic Church " basically either direct via previous Catachism versions or implicitly via current Catachism versions. We can find very charitable Catholics who won’t say these things. It is still stated in some way somewhere. *

Although I never learned this through a mass. There I would find the parishioners very charitable.

Ditto on the bolded.

I think it all depends on who you run into too. I have been following the thread and have been interested with the back and forth. The italics above was basically my understanding as well. I mean, if it isn’t true then why do some people have that belief at all, and/or even bring it up when they find out you’re not Catholic (IRL or online). I’ve run into it in both arenas.

 

[Peter_J]

Ditto on the bolded.

I think it all depends on who you run into too. I have been following the thread and have been interested with the back and forth. The italics above was basically my understanding as well. I mean, if it isn’t true then why do some people have that belief at all, and/or even bring it up when they find out you’re not Catholic (IRL or online). I’ve run into it in both arenas.

It does exist IRL, but keep it in perspective. E.g. In my area, out of about a dozen parishes near, there’s one that like CAF (from my experiences) but I’ve generally don’t go there so it doesn’t affect me really.

As far as ideas that y’all are going to hell … Well may I just say that pretty much every time I hear a mention of the 1914 Catholic Encyclopedia, the person mentioning it is a Protestant … Usually on the internet.

 

[TC3033]

It does exist IRL, but keep it in perspective. E.g. In my area, out of about a dozen parishes near, there’s one that like CAF (from my experiences) but I’ve generally don’t go there so it doesn’t affect me really.

As far as ideas that y’all are going to hell … Well may I just say that pretty much every time I hear a mention of the 1914 Catholic Encyclopedia, the person mentioning it is a Protestant … Usually on the internet.

What’s funny is I didn’t even realize that was a thing or even existed until I started going to Mass with my wife (girlfriend at the time) and I had it brought up to me. That’s really where I interest peaked because, like I said I didn’t even realize it was a “thing”.