Unity among Catholics

[ncstevem]

Unity among Catholics is something our Lord prayed for and should be the goal of all Catholics. However, I would venture to say that the Pope will be hard pressed to foster a sense of unity between Catholics who assist at the NO Mass and Catholics who regularly or solely assist at the TLM.

A good example is a recent Gallup poll which some of you may be familiar with:

gallup.com/poll/117154/Catholics-Similar-Mainstream-Abortion-Stem-Cells.aspx

This poll shows that a large % of Catholics who regularly assist at Mass (weekly or almost weekly) dissent against Church teaching on topics such as abortion, fornication, divorce, homosexuality etc.

This coupled with other polls that showed large % of Catholics disagreeing or denying Church teaching on topics such as contraception (80 % +), the Real Presence (70 % +), womens ordination, etc. We also know that a majority of Catholics voted for the current pro-abortion president.

My experience is that a much higher % of Catholics (probably close to 100%) who assist at the TLM agree with Church teaching on the above topics and that few if any traditional Catholics voted for Obama.

Beyond the difference that exist between ‘traditional’ Catholics and ‘NO’ Catholics on the above topics are the differences that exist between both groups in regards to the celebration of the Mass. Most traditional Catholics refuse to go to a NO Mass or go begrudgingly if they have no other option and many if not most ‘NO’ Catholics want nothing to do with the TLM.

I would suggest that today the Catholic Church is comprised of two distinct groups - ‘NO’ Catholics and traditional Catholics. Traditional Catholicism will continue to be a growing segment of the Church but I don’t see how Catholics will meet the pope’s desire to have both groups exist within a parish because neither group wants anything to do with the other.

I think that parishes which celebrate exclusively the TLM or the NOM will be more prevalent than parishes that celebrate both.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Unity among Catholics is something our Lord prayed for and should be the goal of all Catholics. However, I would venture to say that the Pope will be hard pressed to foster a sense of unity between Catholics who assist at the NO Mass and Catholics who regularly or solely assist at the TLM.

A good example is a recent Gallup poll which some of you may be familiar with:

gallup.com/poll/117154/Catholics-Similar-Mainstream-Abortion-Stem-Cells.aspx

This poll shows that a large % of Catholics who regularly assist at Mass (weekly or almost weekly) dissent against Church teaching on topics such as abortion, fornication, divorce, homosexuality etc.

This coupled with other polls that showed large % of Catholics disagreeing or denying Church teaching on topics such as contraception (80 % +), the Real Presence (70 % +), womens ordination, etc. We also know that a majority of Catholics voted for the current pro-abortion president.

My experience is that a much higher % of Catholics (probably close to 100%) who assist at the TLM agree with Church teaching on the above topics and that few if any traditional Catholics voted for Obama.

Beyond the difference that exist between ‘traditional’ Catholics and ‘NO’ Catholics on the above topics are the differences that exist between both groups in regards to the celebration of the Mass. Most traditional Catholics refuse to go to a NO Mass or go begrudgingly if they have no other option and many if not most ‘NO’ Catholics want nothing to do with the TLM.

I would suggest that today the Catholic Church is comprised of two distinct groups - ‘NO’ Catholics and traditional Catholics. Traditional Catholicism will continue to be a growing segment of the Church but I don’t see how Catholics will meet the pope’s desire to have both groups exist within a parish because neither group wants anything to do with the other.

I think that parishes which celebrate exclusively the TLM or the NOM will be more prevalent than parishes that celebrate both.

While I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, it comes down to the mindset in the parishes, which is why I think parishes that have both the EF and OF, in addition to the parishes that offer solely the EF will flourish.

In Indy, there is a parish (Holy Rosary) which offers a reverent NO and EF, and it is, as far as I know, not hurting, and is probably growing. There is also another parish in Carmel that offers both, and it seems to be growing as well.

The only “dying” and “hurting” parishes are the ones that offer a liberal NO. The EF and EF/NO parishes are the ones “pulling the weight,” as it were.

So, I think you’re wrong in saying that single-Mass parishes will flourish, and NO/EF parishes will flounder.

Most of the things I’ve seen point towards a gravitation towards tradition and orthodoxy. The EF and NO will complement each other, and positively influence each other.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

This poll shows that a large % of Catholics who regularly assist at Mass (weekly or almost weekly) dissent against Church teaching on topics such as abortion, fornication, divorce, homosexuality etc.

This poll isn’t about Catholics who assist at mass, it is a poll of people who call themselves Catholic. There’s a big difference.

I would suggest that today the Catholic Church is comprised of two distinct groups - ‘NO’ Catholics and traditional Catholics. Traditional Catholicism will continue to be a growing segment of the Church but I don’t see how Catholics will meet the pope’s desire to have both groups exist within a parish because neither group wants anything to do with the other.

I think that parishes which celebrate exclusively the TLM or the NOM will be more prevalent than parishes that celebrate both.

I think the real distinction is between conservative/orthodox Catholics and dissenting Catholics. I’m sure you’re right that almost all TLM catholics are conservative/orthodox. But there are many of us who also go to NO parishes. There are even some NO parishes known for being conservative parishes.

There certainly is a split like you’re talking about, but it isn’t between TLM attendees and NO attendees, IMO.

 

[ncstevem]

This poll isn’t about Catholics who assist at mass, it is a poll of people who call themselves Catholic. There’s a big difference.

Neil – Look at the Gallup poll again, it is broken down between Catholics who assist at Mass weekly or almost weekly and a second poll of those who call themselves Catholic.

A large % (and in regards to some topics, a majority) of Catholics who assist at Mass weekly and almost weekly dissent from basic Church teaching.

 

[ac_claire]

Neil – Look at the Gallup poll again, it is broken down between Catholics who assist at Mass weekly or almost weekly and a second poll of those who call themselves Catholic.

A large % (and in regards to some topics, a majority) of Catholics who assist at Mass weekly and almost weekly dissent from basic Church teaching.

Individual Catholics can believe all kinds of unorthodox things. It’s a deficiency of individual Catholics who don’t want to accept what HMC teaches. The important thing is that the Catholic Church is one and is unified and consistent in her teachings.

 

[damooster]

The only “dying” and “hurting” parishes are the ones that offer a liberal NO.

I don’t know about that. I know I may not be in a position to speak about this with much experience, but my RCIA parish is very liberal and draws a huge crowd. It seats 350, but every Mass has people standing in the back, along the walls, even outside. I can comfortably say that no less than 500 people are at each Mass.

I am parish shopping and the more reverent, conservative parishes aren’t drawing a third of what I mentioned above. There are plenty of parishes in this area that are reverent, but people bypass them to go to my RCIA parish (I live in northern Virginia if you want to see a map). Our Bishop is very conservative, and during the elections he worked very hard to help people see the problems with Obama, but to no avail; over 60% of Catholics in this diocese voted for him.

Here’s what I think the solution is: I joined the Catholic Church because it was the only Church that really holds its members responsible for its actions (or so I thought). The rules are in place, the Church needs to start enforcing them. The Church may lose a lot of people that way, but maybe that’s what it needs?

Again, this is just my personal opinion. I know I have no experience compared to you guys.

 

[Lynn-D]

Unity among Catholics is something our Lord prayed for and should be the goal of all Catholics. However, I would venture to say that the Pope will be hard pressed to foster a sense of unity between Catholics who assist at the NO Mass and Catholics who regularly or solely assist at the TLM.

A good example is a recent Gallup poll which some of you may be familiar with:

gallup.com/poll/117154/Catholics-Similar-Mainstream-Abortion-Stem-Cells.aspx

This poll shows that a large % of Catholics who regularly assist at Mass (weekly or almost weekly) dissent against Church teaching on topics such as abortion, fornication, divorce, homosexuality etc.

This coupled with other polls that showed large % of Catholics disagreeing or denying Church teaching on topics such as contraception (80 % +), the Real Presence (70 % +), womens ordination, etc. We also know that a majority of Catholics voted for the current pro-abortion president.

My experience is that a much higher % of Catholics (probably close to 100%) who assist at the TLM agree with Church teaching on the above topics and that few if any traditional Catholics voted for Obama.

Beyond the difference that exist between ‘traditional’ Catholics and ‘NO’ Catholics on the above topics are the differences that exist between both groups in regards to the celebration of the Mass. Most traditional Catholics refuse to go to a NO Mass or go begrudgingly if they have no other option and many if not most ‘NO’ Catholics want nothing to do with the TLM.

I would suggest that today the Catholic Church is comprised of two distinct groups - ‘NO’ Catholics and traditional Catholics. Traditional Catholicism will continue to be a growing segment of the Church but I don’t see how Catholics will meet the pope’s desire to have both groups exist within a parish because neither group wants anything to do with the other.

I think that parishes which celebrate exclusively the TLM or the NOM will be more prevalent than parishes that celebrate both.

I would wonder how can there be unity among Catholics when many in the faith show contempt against Catholic teachings and vote for ‘Name in Only Catholics’ who might call themselves Catholic yet openly support such issues as abortion and same sex marriage.
It is not hard to understand how our Church might be faltering and lose its faithful members when we see our Pope welcome the Speaker of the House (not only a supporter of abortion but an open advocate of that policy) to Rome and such educational and Catholic universities such as Notre Dame not only welcoming a pro abortionist to give the commencement speech but to further honor him. This is a travesty and a contradiction of the teaching of the Church or are Catholic Universities no longer Catholic but secular in all things to the point of being advocates for ‘change’. God forbid!
Lynn-D

 

[brigid12]

I don’t know about that. I know I may not be in a position to speak about this with much experience, but my RCIA parish is very liberal and draws a huge crowd. It seats 350, but every Mass has people standing in the back, along the walls, even outside. I can comfortably say that no less than 500 people are at each Mass.

I am parish shopping and the more reverent, conservative parishes aren’t drawing a third of what I mentioned above. There are plenty of parishes in this area that are reverent, but people bypass them to go to my RCIA parish (I live in northern Virginia if you want to see a map). Our Bishop is very conservative, and during the elections he worked very hard to help people see the problems with Obama, but to no avail; over 60% of Catholics in this diocese voted for him.

Here’s what I think the solution is: I joined the Catholic Church because it was the only Church that really holds its members responsible for its actions (or so I thought). The rules are in place, the Church needs to start enforcing them. The Church may lose a lot of people that way, but maybe that’s what it needs?

Again, this is just my personal opinion. I know I have no experience compared to you guys.

I agree that it is loving and merciful to teach (including enforcement) what the Church truly teaches. The problem, IMHO, is that catechesis was so very poor for so long (from what I’ve seen, from about '67 on) that priests and bishops don’t want to keep people from Communion who may very well be sincere in their love for God even with their misguided/wrong notions - they just weren’t taught the Truth. It would be very scary (kind of like walking a tightrope) to teach the actual Truth in homilies when the culture and previous catechesis says something completely different (not to mention that the pastor needs those parishioners to like what they hear enough to put a lot of $ in the collection basket). It might sometimes be the case with some ecclesiastics that they don’t really know the Truth - some seminaries have really been “off the beam” in the last number of decades.
I think we really need to pray for all priests.

 

[Aramis]

In some cases, the Bishops themselves are not entirely orthodox, either.

That being said, in many cases, barring individuals from communion would result in the loss of said person to one of the following: “independent catholic”, “Old Catholic”, Lutheran, or Anglican churches.

I myself am no fan of the OF mass (nor, for that matter of the EF), but it has nothing to do with the issues at hand: Poor catechesis, priests not “doing the red, saying the black,” and well meaning but misguided parishioners doing things not permitted by canon law.

Parishes can survive with both OF and EF… and even the various other masses* approved in the Roman Church. Heck, there are even parishes where Byzantine Catholics or Maronite Catholics and Roman Catholics both use the same physical chapel! (It’s odd to see the Byz. DL done without an Iconostas, but it serves for my parish’s mission, and for several other missions throughout the country.)

Parishes can not survive without orthodox Priests. Orthodoxis in our clerics leads to better catechesis, and more orthodox Catholics. And more orthodox Catholics tend to be a more active parish constituency.

One other thing to remember: Unity does not mean singularity of form and praxis. It means uniformity of Faith. And the 23 Churches Sui Iuris (including the Roman) have some 40 distinct forms of expressing the Catholic faith, united under the Pope.

*I am aware of at least 9 distinct forms still approved for use in the Roman Church: OF, EF, Dominican, Carmelite, Carthusian, Dalmatian, Mozarabic, Ambrosian, and Bragan. Only the OF and EF are unrestricted; the Dominican, Carmelite and Carthusian are restricted to clerics of those orders and their concelebrants; the others are restricted to particular dioceses. Locally, the Roman Church Cathedral has started offering the Dominican Mass once a month; it is staffed by Dominican Friars. And they are PROUD of their very old form of the Roman Mass, and love to share it with the people.

 

[Lynn-D]

It seems to me that whether a ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’ there are basic Catholic beliefs and standards that should and must be adhered to. To do otherwise is not Catholic but may be something else or nothing at all.

If a person comes to the altar for communion and the priest or bishop knows that this person advocates mortal sin and in fact is a prime mover in offering that sin as if it is ‘reasonable’ then this person should be refused communion. They are committing a mortal sin even if not in commission of the act itself but by creating the means for others to commit the sin. We do believe that the act alone is not necessary for one to have committed a mortal sin but the commission of the act whether by ones self or a surrogate is but the same. I may think of killing someone but if I give the knife to another so that he might do the killing in my stead it is still a mortal sin upon my soul. To make a law validating abortion is just the same as far as I am concerned. It is murder whether done by my own hand or in agreement with another.

When I see those Catholic elected representatives who voted for abortion and its programs taking communion at a Papal Mass, making statements contrary to Catholic doctrine all the while stating they are but a variant voice of Catholicism, I cringe. And when a Catholic University gives an honorary degree to a proponent of any and all abortions I shudder. This more than anything else will someday lead to the destruction of the Holy Church since the effort to do so is coming from within and not by some outsider.

When I take communion at today’s Palm Sunday mass I will do so in the knowledge that my soul is absent of mortal sin and with the intent of not committing a mortal sin once I am out the door of my church. Can ‘In Name Only Catholics’’ say the same when they knowingly vote and will continue to support pro-abortion legislation and take communion. I have not the right to judge them but I know that if I were to do the same I would be guilty of mortal sin. And if I were a person with the authority to do so I would make it clear to them that they are committing a mortal sin and if they continue to openly support abortion they would be excommunicated or at least make it clear they are not welcome at the communion rail. Severe, you bet! But so is murder no matter how you phrase it.

Cannot be one Holy Apostolic Church when rules apply to some but not others.

Lynn-D

 

[Lainey63]

It really isn’t a matter between Catholics who attend the TLM and those who attend NO. There are many people who are more liberal who are on the front lines of abortion, sidewalk counseling, fighting against pornography, feeding the hungry etc. Rolling up their sleeves and getting their hands & feet dirty. While perhaps those who attend the TLM maybe more inclined to be comtemplatives and perform more acts of quiet sacrifices and prayerful reparations to God. That’s not to say those who are more inclined to the Traditional Latin Mass are not on the front lines nor are those who lean more towards the Charismatic are not contemplatives. Rather they both need each other and compliment each other. But the bottum line is this: if you follow the church’s teachings on birth control, abortion, etc you ARE A Catholic, if you do not, then You ARE NOT a Catholic. By their fruits you will know them.