Unity in the Eucharist?

[hn160]

Thank you to all who responded to my post above. I think these discussions are good in that they allow us to understand one another better.

A few specific responses –

From MaryT777:

I have no objection to sharing the Eucharist with anyone who believes that in it the true body and blood of our Lord are received. I would have a problem dealing with those who come from a memorialist tradition.

From SteveVH:

Nor have I. That was just a figure of speech.

To both Mary and Steve, I would say that I have never rejected the Church. I remain in the tradition in which I was raised and have never felt called to leave it.

To all my brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church, while I don’t agree with the Church’s position I respect it and would never seek to go against it. I do pray for the day when we will be able to approach the Lord’s table together.

For my Lutheran brothers from the LC-MS, I let myself be guided by the local pastor when I have occasion to attend the Divine Service. That doesn’t happen often, but the last time I did, I approached the pastor before the service and identified myself and asked about their communion practice. He let me know that I was welcome to receive communion.

I used to be ELCA and before that merger LCA. I never understood the concept of open communion and especially the altar and pulpit fellowship with the Moravian, Calvinist, and the Episcopal Churches. I have a cousin that is a woman Lutheran pastor, she has served as a UCC pastor. I don’t understand the thinking by the national church. The theology is so different, has the national church drifted that far apart from the Confessions?

 

[SteveVH]

From SteveVH:

Nor have I. That was just a figure of speech.

Yes, and I meant it in the same way.

To both Mary and Steve, I would say that I have never rejected the Church. I remain in the tradition in which I was raised and have never felt called to leave it.

I was only speaking of those who are not Catholic but seem to be upset that they cannot receive the Eucharist in the Catholic Church. That is not your situation.

To all my brothers and sisters in the Catholic Church, while I don’t agree with the Church’s position I respect it and would never seek to go against it. I do pray for the day when we will be able to approach the Lord’s table together.

Indeed!

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .For Anglicans, at least those following the 39 Articles and the rubric on kneeling as found in the Church of England’s prayer book (and I know from this board that there are some Anglicans who don’t), there is a real presence but not in anything more than a spiritual sense.

Article XXVIII - Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions. The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner.

Rubric on Kneeling - yet, lest the same kneeling should by any persons, either out of ignorance and infirmity, or out of malice and obstinacy, be misconstrued and depraved: It is here declared, that thereby no Adoration is intended, or ought to be done, either unto the Sacramental Bread or Wine there bodily received, or unto any Corporal Presence of Christ’s natural Flesh and Blood. For the Sacramental Bread and Wine remain still in their very natural substances, and therefore may not be adored; ( for that were Idolatry, to be abhorred of all faithful Christians and the natural Body and Blood of our Saviour Christ are in Heaven, and not here; it being against the truth of Christ’s natural Body to be at one time in more places than one.

Thanks for this. Sounds like the Anglicans are much further away from the Catholic position than are Lutherans. I feel like I should have known that.

This is not the belief of all Anglicans. In fact, the 39 Articles are no longer binding for TEC.

Some Anglicans, such as Fr. Jonathan–The Conciliar Anglican–who do accept the 39 Articles, believe that Christ is truly present.

See Fr.Jonathan’s article: * On The Eucharist*: This Is My Body… No, Seriously, It Is, in which he states:

“. . .Within the context of the institution narratives themselves, there is nothing that would indicate that Jesus is speaking metaphorically. The only reason that anyone can or would come to such a conclusion is if they hold an a priori belief that it is impossible for such a thing to be true, the same kind of a priori belief that has led liberal Biblical scholars since the late nineteenth century to believe that the Resurrection must be a metaphor since we obviously know that people do not come back from the dead. In fact, the contextual indicators only reinforce the understanding that Jesus is speaking plainly here. . . .”

There are Anglicans who accept Transubstantiation. As an Anglo Catholic, I have no objection to Transubstantiation. I simply yield to the mystery of the Holy Eucharist (much the same way the Eastern Orthodox do,) without a need to define it using Aristotelian metaphysics. I believe we are indeed consuming the flesh and blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

In our Parish, the Holy Eucharist is the center of our worship as clearly demonstrated by our liturgy. We have a sanctuary lamp that burns continuously above the reserved Sacrament, and bow or genuflect as do Catholics. Many of us do spend time in prayer and meditation in the presence of the reserved Sacrament–the Body and Blood of Christ.

Anna

 

[liturgyluver]

There are Anglicans who accept Transubstantiation. As an Anglo Catholic, I have no objection to Transubstantiation. I simply yield to the mystery of the Holy Eucharist (much the same way the Eastern Orthodox do,) without a need to define it using Aristotelian metaphysics. I believe we are indeed consuming the flesh and blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

In our Parish, the Holy Eucharist is the center of our worship as clearly demonstrated by our liturgy. We have a sanctuary lamp that burns continuously above the reserved Sacrament, and bow or genuflect as do Catholics. Many of us do spend time in prayer and meditation in the presence of the reserved Sacrament–the Body and Blood of Christ.

Anna

Indeed, Anna. My local Anglican parish has a monthly evensong followed by choral benediction of the blessed sacrament, something which my own parish never has.

 

[MaryT777]

This is not the belief of all Anglicans. In fact, the 39 Articles are no longer binding for TEC.

Some Anglicans, such as Fr. Jonathan–The Conciliar Anglican–who do accept the 39 Articles, believe that Christ is truly present.

See Fr.Jonathan’s article: * On The Eucharist*: This Is My Body… No, Seriously, It Is, in which he states:

“. . .Within the context of the institution narratives themselves, there is nothing that would indicate that Jesus is speaking metaphorically. The only reason that anyone can or would come to such a conclusion is if they hold an a priori belief that it is impossible for such a thing to be true, the same kind of a priori belief that has led liberal Biblical scholars since the late nineteenth century to believe that the Resurrection must be a metaphor since we obviously know that people do not come back from the dead. In fact, the contextual indicators only reinforce the understanding that Jesus is speaking plainly here. . . .”

There are Anglicans who accept Transubstantiation. As an Anglo Catholic, I have no objection to Transubstantiation. I simply yield to the mystery of the Holy Eucharist (much the same way the Eastern Orthodox do,) without a need to define it using Aristotelian metaphysics. I believe we are indeed consuming the flesh and blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist.

In our Parish, the Holy Eucharist is the center of our worship as clearly demonstrated by our liturgy. We have a sanctuary lamp that burns continuously above the reserved Sacrament, and bow or genuflect as do Catholics. Many of us do spend time in prayer and meditation in the presence of the reserved Sacrament–the Body and Blood of Christ.

Anna

I appreciate your well written and thoughful posts as I am learning quite a bit more
about Anglicans. My Aunt attended an Anglican Service here and was just mesmerized by how similar it was to a Catholic Mass. This parish also had a sanctuary lamp that burns continuously.

Mary.

 

[GKC]

I appreciate your well written and thoughful posts as I am learning quite a bit more
about Anglicans. My Aunt attended an Anglican Service here and was just mesmerized by how similar it was to a Catholic Mass. This parish also had a sanctuary lamp that burns continuously.

Mary.

Many do. Mine, for one.

GKC

 

[jrtrent]

This is not the belief of all Anglicans. In fact, the 39 Articles are no longer binding for TEC.

Some Anglicans, such as Fr. Jonathan–The Conciliar Anglican–who do accept the 39 Articles, believe that Christ is truly present.

I realize that not all Anglicans believe the same things. You quoted post number 8, and in post number 9 I said, “But as GKC is fond of pointing out, there is a broad range of Anglicans, and I’m sure some are practically Roman Catholic in their view of the Eucharist.”

I have no problem with the idea of the real presence, it’s just that that presence is spiritual rather than physical.

Likewise, some have misunderstood the words “only after an heavenly and spiritual manner” (Article XXVIII) regarding how the Body and Blood of Christ are received in Communion. “Spiritual” does not mean symbolic or representative; but rather not in a materialistic, carnal, corporeal way. . . The spiritual is anything but figurative. Spiritual things are as real, or more so, than physical or material things. virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=11186#.UUm5OvLn-cw

Because of the kind of Anglican I am, I see its doctrines defined by things like the Prayer Book, which includes the 39 Articles, which in turn include a reference to the Books of Homilies. I know that not all Anglicans agree with those documents, but that’s why I joined the particular Anglican church that I did.

 

[aidanbradypop]

My Anglican (Anglo Catholic) family members believe the exact same thing that I do as far as the Eucharist is concerned. It amazes me that the Anglo Catholic Church is not in full communion with Rome already.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Indeed, Anna. My local Anglican parish has a monthly evensong followed by choral benediction of the blessed sacrament, something which my own parish never has.

liturgyluver,

Interesting.

Do you, instead, have a Eucharistic Adoration Chapel?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

My Anglican (Anglo Catholic) family members believe the exact same thing that I do as far as the Eucharist is concerned. It amazes me that the Anglo Catholic Church is not in full communion with Rome already.

aidanbradypop,

When you think about it, it really shouldn’t be any more surprising than the fact that the Eastern Orthodox are not in full Communion with Rome either.

Anglo Catholics share many Catholic beliefs. The primary reason I haven’t entered into Communion with Rome is the requirement to submit religious mind and will to the Roman Pontiff. However, I view the Pope with respect, as does my Rector.

To answer Steve’s OP question regarding whether or not belief and practice of the Eucharist is a “deal breaker as far as faith and tradition is concerned”; I would answer no, not for me.

I agree with Steve’s statement, " It is, after all, the purpose of the Eucharist; to bring unity between God and man in Jesus Christ. . ."

There are Anglicans who do take serious issue with Rome’s view of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation, as the 39 Articles demonstrate. So, belief and practice concerning the Eucharist would be a deal breaker for some Anglicans, and certainly for many Protestants.

Anna

 

[aidanbradypop]

aidanbradypop,

When you think about it, it really shouldn’t be any more surprising than the fact that the Eastern Orthodox are not in full Communion with Rome either.

Anglo Catholics share many Catholic beliefs. The primary reason I haven’t entered into Communion with Rome is the requirement to submit religious mind and will to the Roman Pontiff. However, I view the Pope with respect, as does my Rector.

To answer Steve’s OP question regarding whether or not belief and practice of the Eucharist is a “deal breaker as far as faith and tradition is concerned”; I would answer no, not for me.

I agree with Steve’s statement, " It is, after all, the purpose of the Eucharist; to bring unity between God and man in Jesus Christ. . ."

There are Anglicans who do take serious issue with Rome’s view of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation, as the 39 Articles demonstrate. So, belief and practice concerning the Eucharist would be a deal breaker for some Anglicans, and certainly for many Protestants.

Anna

Right. As I stated to you, the Anglo-Catholics in my family are in full communion with Rome. The Anglican Communion is much like the label “Protestant.” Within Protestantism, there are soooo many different views and theologies. The same with Anglicans. You will have your orthodox anglicans and your more liberal anglicans.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Right. As I stated to you, the Anglo-Catholics in my family are in full communion with Rome. The Anglican Communion is much like the label “Protestant.” Within Protestantism, there are soooo many different views and theologies. The same with Anglicans. You will have your orthodox anglicans and your more liberal anglicans.

aidanbradypop,

Sadly, I can’t argue with that.

As GKC often says, Anglicans are a “motley crew.”

Anna

 

[aidanbradypop]

The unity of the Eucharist will come about when we are all united under the Vicar of Christ. In my humble opinion

 

[chimo]

There have been more than a few threads that concern the unity of Christians. And while the topic has been addressed in these threads it is for the most part brushed aside. Attemptes are usually made to define the minimal standards on which all Christians must agree; the Trinity, belief in Jesus as one’s Savior, acceptance of God’s grace, etc…

It occurs to me, however, that the Catholic Church does not claim the doctrine of the Trinity as the source and summit of its faith, but rather the Eucharist. Yet this, most important of all things Christian, according to Catholic belief, is so easily dismissed. It is my contention that there will never be unity between Christians until there is unity in belief and practice of the Eucharist. It is, after all, the purpose of the Eucharist; to bring unity between God and man in Jesus Christ, which is the entire mission of the Church.

Is this a deal breaker as far as your faith tradition is concerned?

But the Eucharist to be an unifying component for all Christians there has to be knowledge and sight to know what is going on here. No matter if you are Eastern Orthodox, Catholic or Eastern Catholic some catechism is necessary for your spiritual growth to increase in you. We need to be taught both experience and theory. Yes it is true the experience in Communion outweighs all other methods but lack of knowledge can cause too many to have different judgments regarding Communion. A correct view in respect to Communion must involve all other aspects in teaching it. That means we need to know more than just what the Mass and the Divine Liturgy tells us.

 

[aidanbradypop]

But the Eucharist to be an unifying component for all Christians there has to be knowledge and sight to know what is going on here. No matter if you are Eastern Orthodox, Catholic or Eastern Catholic some catechism is necessary for your spiritual growth to increase in you. We need to be taught both experience and theory. Yes it is true the experience in Communion outweighs all other methods but lack of knowledge can cause too many to have different judgments regarding Communion. A correct view in respect to Communion must involve all other aspects in teaching it. That means we need to know more than just what the Mass and the Divine Liturgy tells us.

I had a wonderful English teacher that wanted to teach me but I had other plans.

If someone denies the true meaning of the Eucharist, it is hard to then teach them about it. Correct?

 

[Anna_Scott]

I realize that not all Anglicans believe the same things. You quoted post number 8, and in post number 9 I said, “But as GKC is fond of pointing out, there is a broad range of Anglicans, and I’m sure some are practically Roman Catholic in their view of the Eucharist.”

I have no problem with the idea of the real presence, it’s just that that presence is spiritual rather than physical.

Because of the kind of Anglican I am, I see its doctrines defined by things like the Prayer Book, which includes the 39 Articles, which in turn include a reference to the Books of Homilies. I know that not all Anglicans agree with those documents, but that’s why I joined the particular Anglican church that I did.

jrtrent,

I understand and respect your position.

As an Anglo Catholic in the Anglican Communion; I don’t see acceptance of the 39 Articles as a necessity. However, the interpretation of the Articles is quite an interesting issue within Anglicanism.

Earlier, I quoted from Fr. Jonathan’s blog: The Conciliar Anglican. I was really quite surprised when I read his interpretation of the 39 Articles, and in particular his interpretation pertaining to the Holy Eucharist.

[As a sidebar, see **Ask an Anglican: The 39 Articles. I don’t want to lead us off topic, as the Eucharist is the focus of this thread. ]

Anna

 

[chimo]

I had a wonderful English teacher that wanted to teach me but I had other plans.

If someone denies the true meaning of the Eucharist, it is hard to then teach them about it. Correct?

Yes this is what I am trying to say. You have to teach to them many aspects of truths so by bringing these truths together they will have a better understanding and experience with God. When I teach the Eucharist at my Orthodox Church I notice the adults who had no formal education on this Sacramental experience would hardly know what exactly goes on. Oh they know God is present but that as far as they go with their relationship with Him. They hardly take Him to be with them into the world. I noticed when you teach children about God in the Eucharist and using simple ways to explain it to them including a catechism of who God is and how we can grow into a relationship with Him by communicating to Him (I tend to use the word talking with Him) they want more. The more is not exactly the Eucharist for this never changes but more of this catechism that can lead them into a deeper truth of the One who loves them. It must go hand in hand this theory and experience if it is to have any lasting effect in our lives.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Yes this is what I am trying to say. You have to teach to them many aspects of truths so by bringing these truths together they will have a better understanding and experience with God. When I teach the Eucharist at my Orthodox Church I notice the adults who had no formal education on this Sacramental experience would hardly know what exactly goes on. Oh they know God is present but that as far as they go with their relationship with Him. They hardly take Him to be with them into the world. I noticed when you teach children about God in the Eucharist and using simple ways to explain it to them including a catechism of who God is and how we can grow into a relationship with Him by communicating to Him (I tend to use the word talking with Him) they want more. The more is not exactly the Eucharist for this never changes but more of this catechism that can lead them into a deeper truth of the One who loves them. It must go hand in hand this theory and experience if it is to have any lasting effect on our lives.

Fair enough.

I ran into a problem with a Protestant friend of mine who wanted to know more about the Holy Eucharist. She believed it to be merely symbolic. So how can there be unity in the Eucharist if someone rejects the teachings you give them?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Fair enough.

I ran into a problem with a Protestant friend of mine who wanted to know more about the Holy Eucharist. She believed it to be merely symbolic. So how can there be unity in the Eucharist if someone rejects the teachings you give them?

aidanbradypop,

This was not addressed to me ; but you made an important point.

We cannot have unity in the Eucharist, without unity in belief and practice of the Eucharist.

Anna

 

[chimo]

Fair enough.

I ran into a problem with a Protestant friend of mine who wanted to know more about the Holy Eucharist. She believed it to be merely symbolic. So how can there be unity in the Eucharist if someone rejects the teachings you give them?

Yes with Protestants this may be the case. They are taught under a different rainbow and you have to be very patient with them. They do not know Catholic teaching because they see differently those concepts which are dear to most Catholics and to the Orthodox. In truth a way to show Protestants that Catholic truths are true is point them to another witness of God’s eternal truths as found in the Orthodox Churches. Two witnesses can be better than one and who knows when two can do the better job. Since the Orthodox and Catholic Churches have this same Eucharist and power I wonder why don’t we utilize both of our Churches to be our witnesses when we for instance talk to our Protestant brothers and sisters. Over one billion Catholics and over 400 million Orthodox must be doing something right! When I talk about unity in the Eucharist I refer only to our Catholic Churches, Orthodox Churches and Eastern Catholic Churches. A unified Christian communion of all these Churches will tell much to all of our Protestant brethren. The reason why they don’t believe in the Eucharist is not only because of what they are taught or not taught but because they need to see us united first. I bet you many of them never had heard of the Orthodox Church or if they did it was only by hearing only. The coming together of all Christians will come and it will start when Catholics and Orthodox get their act together to finally iron out their differences for full communion to begin with them. It is coming. It will not take much for a common celebration of the Eucharist for Catholics and Orthodox as stated in your Catholic Catechism points out. In fact it will be easy.