Unity in the Eucharist?

  • Thread starter Thread starter SteveVH
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes with Protestants this may be the case. They are taught under a different rainbow and you have to be very patient with them. They do not know Catholic teaching because they see differently those concepts which are dear to most Catholics and to the Orthodox. In truth a way to show Protestants that Catholic truths are true is point them to another witness of God’s eternal truths as found in the Orthodox Churches. Two witnesses can be better than one and who knows when two can do the better job. Since the Orthodox and Catholic Churches have this same Eucharist and power I wonder why don’t we utilize both of our Churches to be our witnesses when we for instance talk to our Protestant brothers and sisters. Over one billion Catholics and over 400 million Orthodox must be doing something right! When I talk about unity in the Eucharist I refer only to our Catholic Churches, Orthodox Churches and Eastern Catholic Churches. A unified Christian communion of all these Churches will tell much to all of our Protestant brethren. The reason why they don’t believe in the Eucharist is not only because of what they are taught or not taught but because they need to see us united first. I bet you many of them never had heard of the Orthodox Church or if they did it was only by hearing only. The coming together of all Christians will come and it will start when Catholics and Orthodox get their act together to finally iron out their differences for full communion to begin with them. It is coming.
Prayer…prayer…prayer and more PRAYER lol

That is the only way that we can come into unity with one another. I pray Pope Franics can make way on this subject. How wonderful would it be to once again be united at least in the Eucharist!
 
Prayer…prayer…prayer and more PRAYER lol

That is the only way that we can come into unity with one another. I pray Pope Franics can make way on this subject. How wonderful would it be to once again be united at least in the Eucharist!
Yes it will be the unifying agent between the Orthodox and Catholic for this Sacrament is common to both Catholic and Orthodox. It will come when each Orthodox and Catholic will begin to discover each other from the local level. I will give you a secret. This will begin in Canada and the United States for it is here that Orthodox and Catholics live side by side. It is there in these two countries where contacts between the two great witnesses can begin. I believe God has brought the Orthodox into these two countries so as to make contacts with the Catholic Church there. The unity will start when the lay persons will take an interest in visiting each other. It is coming yet slowly but in time more great interests will take place. The unity for which we all seek will begin there and then spread out. Your Pope is an incredible Pastor as he is from the Americas and probably has inherited this great interest within his own experience before he was elected to serve as Peter’s successor.
 
jrtrent,

I understand and respect your position. 🙂

As an Anglo Catholic in the Anglican Communion; I don’t see acceptance of the 39 Articles as a necessity. However, the interpretation of the Articles is quite an interesting issue within Anglicanism.

Earlier, I quoted from Fr. Jonathan’s blog: The Conciliar Anglican. I was really quite surprised when I read his interpretation of the 39 Articles, and in particular his interpretation pertaining to the Holy Eucharist.

[As a sidebar, see **Ask an Anglican: The 39 Articles
. I don’t want to lead us off topic, as the Eucharist is the focus of this thread. 🙂 ]

Anna

And he quotes Archbishop Bramhall.

I do that a lot myself.

GKC
 
As an Anglo Catholic in the Anglican Communion; I don’t see acceptance of the 39 Articles as a necessity. However, the interpretation of the Articles is quite an interesting issue within Anglicanism.
Yes, it’s interesting to see how far the 39 Articles can stretch. Even J. C. Ryle, a pretty staunch Calvinist on the Evangelical wing of the Anglican church, said that there is room in the Anglican church for both Arminians and Calvinists, and he had very flattering things to say about John Wesley.

I’ve got a bunch of books about the 39 Articles on a cd. It’s fun sometimes to just go through all of them to see what they have to say on a particular article. I did that recently in looking at Article XXV, curious to see if any admitted the propriety of saying we have 7 sacraments rather than 2 sacraments with 5 lesser or minor sacraments (all authors seemed to think making the distinction was important). Maybe next I’ll run through them all to see what they have to say about Article XXVIII. Here’s the list:

E. J. Bicknell–A Theological Introduction to the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England

T. P. Boultbee–An Introduction to the Theology of the Church of England in an Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion

E. H. Browne–An Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Aricles, Historical and Doctrinal

G. Burnet–An Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England

A. P. Forbes–An Explanation of the Thirty-Nine Articles

E. C. S. Gibson–The Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England

E. T. Green–The Thirty-Nine Articles and the Age of the Reformation

C. Hardwick–A History of the Articles of Religion

E. A. Litton–Introduction to Dogmatic Theology on the Basis of the Thirty-Nine Articles

G. F. Maclear and W. W. Williams–An Introduction to the Articles of the Church of England

Thomas Rogers–The Catholic Doctrine of the Church of England; an Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Articles

W. H. G. Thomas–The Principles of Theology; an Introduction to the Thirty-Nine Articles

W. G. Wilson and J. H. Templeton–Anglican Teaching; an Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Articles
 
aidanbradypop,

When you think about it, it really shouldn’t be any more surprising than the fact that the Eastern Orthodox are not in full Communion with Rome either.

Anglo Catholics share many Catholic beliefs. The primary reason I haven’t entered into Communion with Rome is the requirement to submit religious mind and will to the Roman Pontiff. However, I view the Pope with respect, as does my Rector.

To answer Steve’s OP question regarding whether or not belief and practice of the Eucharist is a “deal breaker as far as faith and tradition is concerned”; I would answer no, not for me.

I agree with Steve’s statement, " It is, after all, the purpose of the Eucharist; to bring unity between God and man in Jesus Christ. . ."

There are Anglicans who do take serious issue with Rome’s view of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation, as the 39 Articles demonstrate. So, belief and practice concerning the Eucharist would be a deal breaker for some Anglicans, and certainly for many Protestants.

Anna
Anna, thanks for all your posts. I realize that there are many Anglicans who are very close in belief to the Catholic postition. It seems, however that there are many who don’t hold this view.

While I am not surprised that it has been those in the liturgical fatith traditions which have responed, I was hoping to hear more from the Evangelical/Fundamentalist crowd as far as a jusification for rejecting the Eucharist. The idea for the thread came as a result of many non-Catholic statements on other threads that seem to place the Eucharist in the non-essential column as far as what it means to be a Christian.

It seems we have not heard from any of these folks thus far. To the Catholic, the Eucharist is so essential that we would not have a Church without it. That seems to be a pretty wide gulf to cross before unity can be considered.
 
Yes it will be the unifying agent between the Orthodox and Catholic for this Sacrament is common to both Catholic and Orthodox. It will come when each Orthodox and Catholic will begin to discover each other from the local level. I will give you a secret. This will begin in Canada and the United States for it is here that Orthodox and Catholics live side by side. It is there in these two countries where contacts between the two great witnesses can begin. I believe God has brought the Orthodox into these two countries so as to make contacts with the Catholic Church there. The unity will start when the lay persons will take an interest in visiting each other. It is coming yet slowly but in time more great interests will take place. The unity for which we all seek will begin there and then spread out. Your Pope is an incredible Pastor as he is from the Americas and probably has inherited this great interest within his own experience before he was elected to serve as Peter’s successor.
I couldn’t agree more with everything you said here. 👍
 
Yes, it’s interesting to see how far the 39 Articles can stretch. Even J. C. Ryle, a pretty staunch Calvinist on the Evangelical wing of the Anglican church, said that there is room in the Anglican church for both Arminians and Calvinists, and he had very flattering things to say about John Wesley.

I’ve got a bunch of books about the 39 Articles on a cd. It’s fun sometimes to just go through all of them to see what they have to say on a particular article. I did that recently in looking at Article XXV, curious to see if any admitted the propriety of saying we have 7 sacraments rather than 2 sacraments with 5 lesser or minor sacraments (all authors seemed to think making the distinction was important). Maybe next I’ll run through them all to see what they have to say about Article XXVIII. Here’s the list:

E. J. Bicknell–A Theological Introduction to the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England

T. P. Boultbee–An Introduction to the Theology of the Church of England in an Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion

E. H. Browne–An Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Aricles, Historical and Doctrinal

G. Burnet–An Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England

A. P. Forbes–An Explanation of the Thirty-Nine Articles

E. C. S. Gibson–The Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England

E. T. Green–The Thirty-Nine Articles and the Age of the Reformation

C. Hardwick–A History of the Articles of Religion

E. A. Litton–Introduction to Dogmatic Theology on the Basis of the Thirty-Nine Articles

G. F. Maclear and W. W. Williams–An Introduction to the Articles of the Church of England

Thomas Rogers–The Catholic Doctrine of the Church of England; an Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Articles

W. H. G. Thomas–The Principles of Theology; an Introduction to the Thirty-Nine Articles

W. G. Wilson and J. H. Templeton–Anglican Teaching; an Exposition of the Thirty-Nine Articles
jrtrent,

That’s quite a list you have there. Having them on CD is an advantage.

What differences did you find regarding the Eucharist?

Anna
 
What differences did you find regarding the Eucharist?
I’ll have to get back to you on that. Some are pretty long-winded, so it will take a while to read up on Article XXVIII in all of them (and I should probably read XXIX, XXX, and XXXI while I’m at it).
 
I’ll have to get back to you on that. Some are pretty long-winded, so it will take a while to read up on Article XXVIII in all of them (and I should probably read XXIX, XXX, and XXXI while I’m at it).
I expect you will find a good deal of unanimity.

GKC
 
I’ll have to get back to you on that. Some are pretty long-winded, so it will take a while to read up on Article XXVIII in all of them (and I should probably read XXIX, XXX, and XXXI while I’m at it).
jrtrent,

Actually, that would be a good topic for another thread, if you have the time and inclination to start one.

I think Steve’s intent for this thread is headed in a different direction.

My apologies to you, Steve. One thing leads to another. It’s so easy to go off topic. I’ll try to do better.

Anna
 
. . .I was hoping to hear more from the Evangelical/Fundamentalist crowd as far as a jusification for rejecting the Eucharist. The idea for the thread came as a result of many non-Catholic statements on other threads that seem to place the Eucharist in the non-essential column as far as what it means to be a Christian.

It seems we have not heard from any of these folks thus far. To the Catholic, the Eucharist is so essential that we would not have a Church without it. That seems to be a pretty wide gulf to cross before unity can be considered.
Steve,
I hope they will enter the discussion. For some reason, it’s difficult to find Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christians willing to engage in discussion regarding the Eucharist, especially when John Chapter 6 is on the table.

Back in Feb. of 2010, I started a thread entitled, Baptists, Does Scripture point to the Catholic Lord’s Supper/Eucharist?. As you know, many of my posts over the last 4 years read like a diary of my spiritual journey (which is still in progress). I did start as a Southern Baptist. Seems like a Century ago.

As I stated in my last post on the Baptist/Eucharist thread, “I gave an invitation to Baptists to discuss John Chapter 6. Sadly, only one Baptist actually posted on this Thread, and he did not address John Chapter 6.”

I was very disappointed, but remain hopeful for this thread. 🙂

Anna
 
I hope they will enter the discussion. For some reason, it’s difficult to find Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christians willing to engage in discussion regarding the Eucharist, especially when John Chapter 6 is on the table.
The references to John 6 always throw me off-track a bit. In Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist circles, when a person speaks of John 6, they are referring to verses like these:

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6 is almost always given as a reference to proof texts for Calvinism, not an understanding of the Lord’s Supper. It took me while when first joining this forum to realize that some people have a different topic in mind when they make reference to John 6.
While I am not surprised that it has been those in the liturgical fatith traditions which have responed, I was hoping to hear more from the Evangelical/Fundamentalist crowd as far as a jusification for rejecting the Eucharist. The idea for the thread came as a result of many non-Catholic statements on other threads that seem to place the Eucharist in the non-essential column as far as what it means to be a Christian.
I think I’m confused on what you mean by “rejecting the Eucharist.” Having spent many years in each of two non-liturgical churches, Presbyterian and Baptist (the two churches my parents attended when I was a child), I know that they regularly hold the Lord’s Supper and do so with due reverence, honor, and respect in fulfilling a commandment given by Christ. Chapter XXIX of the Westminster Confession of Faith gives their understanding and practice of this ordinance. Other than the Salvation Army, I can’t think of a group that rejects the practice of observing it. What kind of churches, or what kind of rejection, did you have in mind?
 
I think I’m confused on what you mean by “rejecting the Eucharist.” Having spent many years in each of two non-liturgical churches, Presbyterian and Baptist (the two churches my parents attended when I was a child), I know that they regularly hold the Lord’s Supper and do so with due reverence, honor, and respect in fulfilling a commandment given by Christ. Chapter XXIX of the Westminster Confession of Faith gives their understanding and practice of this ordinance. Other than the Salvation Army, I can’t think of a group that rejects the practice of observing it. What kind of churches, or what kind of rejection, did you have in mind?
I am not sure of how the Reformed Baptist partake in the Eucharist, but in Southern Baptist the Eucharist is something that is usually done once a quarter. It is purely symbolic to them and hold no sacramental value. It is respected but a Southern Baptist could go their whole life without ever taking it. 🤷
 
I am not sure of how the Reformed Baptist partake in the Eucharist, but in Southern Baptist the Eucharist is something that is usually done once a quarter. It is purely symbolic to them and hold no sacramental value. It is respected but a Southern Baptist could go their whole life without ever taking it. 🤷
You can read chapter 30 in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith to see the complete treatment of the Lord’s Supper. Interestingly, when the Southern Baptist Convention was organized in 1845, all of the delegates belonged to congregations and associations that had adopted the Philadelphia/Charleston Confession of Faith as their own. That confession’s chapter 32 appears to be identical to that of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith used by Reformed Baptists, so I would be surprised if there is much difference in belief.

My experience is that monthly or quarterly observance is pretty standard among Reformed Baptist churches, just as it is in Southern Baptist churches (one source I read said there are regional differences, with SBC churches in the South tending to quarterly while those in the Northeast and West tending toward monthly observance). As to what it means, below are a few excerpts from the London/Philadelphia/Charleston Confessions:

Of the Lord’s Supper
The supper of the Lord Jesus, was instituted by Him, the same night wherein He was betrayed, to be observed in His churches unto the end of the world, for the perpetual remembrance, and showing forth the sacrifice of Himself in His death, confirmation of the faith of believers in all the benefits thereof, their spiritual nourishment and growth in Him, their further engagement in and to all duties which they owe unto Him; and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with Him, and with each other.
In this ordinance, Christ is not offered up to His Father, nor any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin, of the quick or dead, but only a memorial of that one offering up of Himself by Himself, upon the cross, once for all; and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God for the same. . .
The outward elements in this ordinance, duly set apart to the use ordained by Christ, have such relation to Him crucified, as that truly, although in terms used figuratively, they are sometimes called by the names of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ, albeit in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.
Worthy receivers outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified and all the benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally, or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.

So while it is “only a memorial” and an oblation of praise unto God, yet it is also something that provides “spiritual nourishment and growth” and “confirmation of the faith,” with the body and blood of Christ being “spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance” such that “worthy receivers outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified and all the benefits of His death.”

To me, that’s not a rejection of the Eucharist, but maybe it is in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Would anything short of transubstantiation be considered a rejection of the Eucharist?
 
So while it is “only a memorial” and an oblation of praise unto God, yet it is also something that provides “spiritual nourishment and growth” and “confirmation of the faith,” with the body and blood of Christ being “spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance” such that “worthy receivers outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified and all the benefits of His death.”

To me, that’s not a rejection of the Eucharist, but maybe it is in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Would anything short of transubstantiation be considered a rejection of the Eucharist?
Ummmmm, IMHO…yes. By simply seeing it as a memorial or symbolic, not the TRUE Body and Blood of Christ and has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins is a rejection of the Eucharist. Would you agree or respectfully disagree?
 
Ummmmm, IMHO…yes. By simply seeing it as a memorial or symbolic, not the TRUE Body and Blood of Christ and has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins is a rejection of the Eucharist. Would you agree or respectfully disagree?
Well, you already quoted me as saying that I don’t believe the Baptist position on the Lord’s Supper is a rejection of the Eucharist, but I certainly agree that you have the right to define it the way you see fit.

The OP said originally that the Eucharist is “so easily dismissed” by some, and more recently said, “I was hoping to hear more from the Evangelical/Fundamentalist crowd as far as a justification for rejecting the Eucharist.” I’m thinking that there are very few, if any, that see themselves as dismissing or rejecting the Eucharist, and that that may account for the lack of responses the OP was looking for. If acceptance of the doctrine of transubstantiation is how non-rejection is defined, maybe a new thread asking why people reject the doctrine of transubstantiation would garner more responses from the people the OP wanted to reach.
 
Well, you already quoted me as saying that I don’t believe the Baptist position on the Lord’s Supper is a rejection of the Eucharist, but I certainly agree that you have the right to define it the way you see fit.

The OP said originally that the Eucharist is “so easily dismissed” by some, and more recently said, “I was hoping to hear more from the Evangelical/Fundamentalist crowd as far as a justification for rejecting the Eucharist.” I’m thinking that there are very few, if any, that see themselves as dismissing or rejecting the Eucharist, and that that may account for the lack of responses the OP was looking for. If acceptance of the doctrine of transubstantiation is how non-rejection is defined, maybe a new thread asking why people reject the doctrine of transubstantiation would garner more responses from the people the OP wanted to reach.
I started on awhile back. The majority of posters wer LCMS and Anglican. I didn’t really get the answers I was looking for. However, I few people did state that Christ did not mean the bread and wine would become His Body and Blood.
 
You can read chapter 30 in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith to see the complete treatment of the Lord’s Supper. Interestingly, when the Southern Baptist Convention was organized in 1845, all of the delegates belonged to congregations and associations that had adopted the Philadelphia/Charleston Confession of Faith as their own. That confession’s chapter 32 appears to be identical to that of the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith used by Reformed Baptists, so I would be surprised if there is much difference in belief.

. . . .So while it is “only a memorial” and an oblation of praise unto God, yet it is also something that provides “spiritual nourishment and growth” and “confirmation of the faith,” with the body and blood of Christ being “spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance” such that “worthy receivers outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified and all the benefits of His death.”

To me, that’s not a rejection of the Eucharist, but maybe it is in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Would anything short of transubstantiation be considered a rejection of the Eucharist?
jrtrent,

Excellent information all around. 👍

While The Lord’s Supper/Holy Eucharist/Holy Communion/Holy Mass are used interchangeably by Sacramental Christians, that is not the case for many Protestants.

In all my years in the Southern Baptist Church, I never heard the word “Eucharist” used to refer to The Lord’s Supper.

I think the information in your post points to a problem regarding the definition of the “Eucharist,” which is vital to Steve’s question in the OP:
. . . .It occurs to me, however, that the Catholic Church does not claim the doctrine of the Trinity as the source and summit of its faith, but rather the Eucharist. Yet this, most important of all things Christian, according to Catholic belief, is so easily dismissed. It is my contention that there will never be unity between Christians until there is unity in belief and practice of the Eucharist. It is, after all, the purpose of the Eucharist; to bring unity between God and man in Jesus Christ, which is the entire mission of the Church.

Is this a deal breaker as far as your faith tradition is concerned?
In order to answer Steve’s question, one must look to the Catholic view of the Eucharist and then discuss agreements and disagreements.

It would be very difficult to say whether or not the “Eucharist” is a “deal breaker,” as far as Protestant faith and traditions are concerned, without knowing what the Catholic Church believes. See **Catechism of the Catholic Church 1322-1419 **

Very interesting discussion. I have more to say; but must get some things done outside forum life. Will return as soon as I can.

Appreciate your contributions to the discussion and look forward to more. 🙂

Anna
 
To Anna and others who want to answer.

The Church states that the Catholic Church (and those in communion w/Rome) and The Orthodox Church have a valid Eucharist. All other Eucharists are invalid. Soooooo lol

How can there be unity in the Eucharist if many denominations have an invalid Eucharist?

Some Protestant denominations flat out deny the RP in the host. 🤷
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top