Unity in the Orthodox Churches

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The following interchange between myself and Isa Almisry on an Apologetics thread raised some off topic questions. So I’m bringing it here in hopes someone can answer those questions.
question:
Again, is this majority vote within each patriarchate? Do the various Orthodox Churches (separated from Rome) have differing teachings in any areas of doctrinal faith and/or in morals?

Isa Almisry’s response:
No. And we did that all without a supreme pontiff.

Isa’s response indicates complete unity in teaching on faith and morals in the various orthodox churches. (I’ll take her word for it, unless someone else knows different.)

The question it raised for me was how much unity there was between the churches when it came to liturgical sharing. A couple of specific areas:
  1. Reception of the sacraments by the laity.
    Can someone who belongs to, say the Russian Orthodox Church, fulfill their Sunday obligation by going to a Greek Orthodox Mass - when it’s not a case of necessity. (Do they call it Mass?)
    Same question for Baptism, Confession, Confirmation, Marriage.
  2. Priests. Would an Orthodox priest of one branch ever be allowed to celebrate Mass at a Church of a different branch?
    In the Catholic Church, priests of different rites are allowed to say Mass in parishes that are of a different rite. They can also serve on a regular basis. (Eg. I know one Latin rite parish where one of the assistants for several years came from India and was of the Malobar rite. ) I was wondering if the unity between the various Orthodox Churches had a similar practice.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Nita
 
I’m pretty sure there is no problem of any Orthodox receiving the Sacraments in any of the Orthodox branches.

That said, there is no agreement on issues like rebaptism, some say it is forbidden, others (Greek O) I think go ahead and rebaptize. (I had a big thread on this, but it was lost in the forum crash of 06)
Also, there is no agreement on how “true” the Confession of Dositheos is, the issue of toll houses, indulgences, etc. Here are some threads:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=254497

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=219006

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=207554
 
The following interchange between myself and Isa Almisry on an Apologetics thread raised some off topic questions. So I’m bringing it here in hopes someone can answer those questions.

Isa’s response indicates complete unity in teaching on faith and morals in the various orthodox churches. (I’ll take her word for it, unless someone else knows different.)

The question it raised for me was how much unity there was between the churches when it came to liturgical sharing. A couple of specific areas:
  1. Reception of the sacraments by the laity.
    Can someone who belongs to, say the Russian Orthodox Church, fulfill their Sunday obligation by going to a Greek Orthodox Mass - when it’s not a case of necessity. (Do they call it Mass?)
    Same question for Baptism, Confession, Confirmation, Marriage.
  2. Priests. Would an Orthodox priest of one branch ever be allowed to celebrate Mass at a Church of a different branch?
    In the Catholic Church, priests of different rites are allowed to say Mass in parishes that are of a different rite. They can also serve on a regular basis. (Eg. I know one Latin rite parish where one of the assistants for several years came from India and was of the Malobar rite. ) I was wondering if the unity between the various Orthodox Churches had a similar practice.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

Nita
  1. A member of a canonical Orthodox Church of one jurisdiction can recieve communion in any canonical Orthodox Church of any other jurisdiction. There is no “Sunday Obligation” persay(you’re expected to be at Church, missing might be sinful depending on the reason) . It is known as the “Divine Liturgy” as opposed to “Mass”. So yes; as an Orthodox Christian under the Patriarch of Antioch I can attend and commune in the Russian Church down the street, a Greek Church, etc. Although the priest would either want a copy of a baptismal certificate or to talk to my usual parish priest beforehand as Orthodox priests will turn away someone who approaches if they do not know them or have not spoken with them.
  2. Orthodox hierarchs can and do concelebrate with hierarchs of other Orthodox jurisdictions as we are one Church.
You can safely take Isa’s word concerning the unity of teaching in Faith and morals among the various jurisdictions. Isa is a guy though. 😃 The unity of faith and the safeguarding of the Faith and teaching is of the utmost importence to the Orthodox Church.
 
Can someone who belongs to, say the Russian Orthodox Church, fulfill their Sunday obligation by going to a Greek Orthodox Mass - when it’s not a case of necessity. (Do they call it Mass?)
Same question for Baptism, Confession, Confirmation, Marriage.
  1. Priests. Would an Orthodox priest of one branch ever be allowed to celebrate Mass at a Church of a different branch?
    In the Catholic Church, priests of different rites are allowed to say Mass in parishes that are of a different rite. They can also serve on a regular basis.
Divine eucharistic worship is not called Mass - this is expression based on Latin - is called in English Divine liturgy. What is “sunday obigation” - is this neccesary to go to Church on Sunday?? If so - Orthodox could attend other Orthodox church, but important- to know priest so can go to confession. Must confess, pray and fast from midnight on days to receive communion. Priest must know your name and know that you have been to confession to commune you - so best in own parish. It would be most unusual for orthodox peson or take his child to different church to be baptized and annointed with myron. Marriage might be in different church.

Orthodox priests from Greece and Rumania have been to my own parish to celebrate Divine Liturgy with our metropolit. Below is video of Divine Liturgy of Patriarch Aleksij on feast of St. Grigorij of Neokesareiskij. Push arrow to make video run.

media.tv-soyuz.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=72&Itemid=44
 
I’m pretty sure there is no problem of any Orthodox receiving the Sacraments in any of the Orthodox branches.

That said, there is no agreement on issues like rebaptism, some say it is forbidden, others (Greek O) I think go ahead and rebaptize. (I had a big thread on this, but it was lost in the forum crash of 06)
Also, there is no agreement on how “true” the Confession of Dositheos is, the issue of toll houses, indulgences, etc. Here are some threads:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=254497

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=219006

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=207554
Thanks for the links Catholic Dude. Was really glad to find the link from Alexius to the Orthodox Catechism (in the 3rd thread link you gave). It probably won’t touch on the questions I asked here - but I have very little knowledge of the Orthodox who are not under the Pope (or even those who are under the Pope), so it is nice to have a more objective source for what they believe. Not much exposure to Eastern Catholicism here in the U.S. - and especially in the little town I live in.

I didn’t have much success getting answers on the other thread. Answers always seemed to be combative or derogatory rather than informative :confused: . (Catholics as well as Orthodox; and I’m not excluding myself! Forgive me Lord.) I feel especially bad since we hold so many more religious beliefs in common with the Orthodox than with other Christian religions. I’d rather be a close “sister” than a feuding “sister”.

God bless,
Nita
 
  1. A member of a canonical Orthodox Church of one jurisdiction can recieve communion in any canonical Orthodox Church of any other jurisdiction. There is no “Sunday Obligation” persay(you’re expected to be at Church, missing might be sinful depending on the reason) . It is known as the “Divine Liturgy” as opposed to “Mass”. So yes; as an Orthodox Christian under the Patriarch of Antioch I can attend and commune in the Russian Church down the street, a Greek Church, etc. Although the priest would either want a copy of a baptismal certificate or to talk to my usual parish priest beforehand as Orthodox priests will turn away someone who approaches if they do not know them or have not spoken with them.
  2. Orthodox hierarchs can and do concelebrate with hierarchs of other Orthodox jurisdictions as we are one Church.
You can safely take Isa’s word concerning the unity of teaching in Faith and morals among the various jurisdictions. Isa is a guy though. 😃 The unity of faith and the safeguarding of the Faith and teaching is of the utmost importence to the Orthodox Church.
Thanks Nicholas.
Can I ask what is meant by “canonical” Orthodox Church? (versus one that would not be called canonical)

I’ll remember to use the proper terminology (“Divine Liturgy”) in the future.

And, I will certainly never refer to Isa as “her” again! :o

God bless,
Nita
 
Divine eucharistic worship is not called Mass - this is expression based on Latin - is called in English Divine liturgy. What is “sunday obigation” - is this neccesary to go to Church on Sunday?? If so - Orthodox could attend other Orthodox church, but important- to know priest so can go to confession. Must confess, pray and fast from midnight on days to receive communion. Priest must know your name and know that you have been to confession to commune you - so best in own parish. It would be most unusual for orthodox peson or take his child to different church to be baptized and annointed with myron. Marriage might be in different church.

Orthodox priests from Greece and Rumania have been to my own parish to celebrate Divine Liturgy with our metropolit. Below is video of Divine Liturgy of Patriarch Aleksij on feast of St. Grigorij of Neokesareiskij. Push arrow to make video run.

media.tv-soyuz.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=72&Itemid=44
Hi Volodymyr,

“Sunday obligation” refers to the Catholic regulation that we must attend Mass on Sunday - unless there is a valid reason not to (sickness, unable to get to Church, etc.). To miss Mass on Sunday without a valid reason is considered a serious sin.

I checked out the video. Wish I’d understood the language. I really appreciate the beauty you’ve retained in your liturgies. I grew up with the Latin liturgy and miss the beauty and sacredness it visibly expressed.

God bless,
Nita
 
Thanks Nicholas.
Can I ask what is meant by “canonical” Orthodox Church? (versus one that would not be called canonical)

I’ll remember to use the proper terminology (“Divine Liturgy”) in the future.

And, I will certainly never refer to Isa as “her” again! :o
Not a problem. I know it means “Liz” in Spanish (it means “Jesus” in Arabic). I used to get invitations to join the Miss Illinois pageant for Miss America.

As for canonical, it means one whose bishops are in the diptychs, on which, see the next post.
 
If you go to any mass at a church under the Vatican, at mass they will commemorate the pope of Rome, and then the local bishop. This is also a change, an important one, that the Vatican has instituted in a practice called the diptychs, and the Orthodox practice is still as it was in the first millenium: when I go to Divine Liturgy, the priest has a cloth, called the antimens, with means (in Latin!, the term came about when both Old and New Rome used Latin officially) “instead of the table” i.e. the bishop’s altar. It is signed by the bishop, given us permission to celebrate Divine Liturgy on it, because the bishop is the oridinary minister. As St. Ignatius writes:

Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8,

Now at Divine Liturgy the priest commemorates our bishop (Mark, a former Pentacostal, btw) and our primate (Phillip) of the Autonomous Archdiocese of North America, to show our communion with our bishop and the head of the synod to which he belongs. Where Bishop Mark celebrates, he has no antimens (as bishop, he needs no permission) but he commemorates all the bishops of the archdiocese and and the synods head, Metropolitan Philip, to show their communion. When Metropolitan Philip celebrates DL, he commemorates the heads of all the heads of all the Archdioceses/synods of the Patriarchate of Antioch, and the Patriarch, Ignatius IV (the 163rd successor of St. Peter in his first See, Antioch). Patriarch Ignatius at DL commemorates all the other patriarchs of the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Orthodox Church. This practice of diptychs is meant to show the unity of the Church throughout the world, and as a sign of who is Orthodox. When someone is struck from the diptychs, it means that bishop, and all who commemorte him, are not in communion. This happened recently with the patriarch of Jerusalem, who had been mismananging Church property amongst other problems. The synod of Jerusalem, met, struck him from the diptychs, the other patriarchs, investigating the situation in a synod of their own in Constantinople supported the synod and struck him from the diptychs, and he was deposed. It also happened in Moscow, where the argument with the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople reached a point that the PoM struck the EP from the diptychs. The other patriarchs, however, told both of them that they, the remaining patriarchs, were striking neither from their diptychs. So they were going to keep them in one Church so they had better come up with a solution, which they did.

Now, in the diptychs as modified by the Vatican, the pope of Rome’s name is mentioned at every mass in every church all over the world. In the Early Church, we don’t see that: no Church in Egypt, for instance, commemorated the Pope of Rome except the Church where the Pope of Alexandria was celebrating Divine Liturgy. The Vatican sends out who is in the diptychs, and he alone decides the list. In the early Church, it was not so, and Popes of Rome on occasion were struck from the diptychs: for instance the date 1054 is really not the correct date for the schism, but has been promoted in the West. For the Orthodox, the split occured when Benedict VIII inserted the filioque (at the emperor Henry II’s demand) into the Creed recited at the DL. When the EP received the notice of Benedict’s ascension with the filioque in his confession, the pope was struck from the diptychs. (The Universal Ecumenical Councils had forbidden altering the Creed on the pain of deposition). One of the issues of the delegation from Rome in 1054 was to insist that the other Patriarchs put the pope of Rome back into the diptychs.

Another practice that the Vatican has done is the metochia/titular Churches. The metochion is an “embassy” Church: each patriarchate has a parish in each of the the other patriarchates. In that Church, the patriarch of the “foreign” patriarch is commemorated, not that of the patriarch. For instance, St. Rafael Hawaaweeny (1st Orthodox bishop ordained in the New World, an Arab ordained by Russians). was attached as deacon in the metochion of Antioch in Moscow. In that Church the Patriarch and Synod of Antioch, not Moscow, were commenorated. The metochian coordiantes relations between the patriarchs and their patriarchates. The way the Vatican has it now, they have instead titular Churches: each cardinal (the college itself being an innovation that doesn’t date until after the Greast Schism) gets a titular Church in Rome, although he has no function in it, its just there to justify him as being a member of the curia electing the pope of Rome, although the bishop in question may never otherwise set foot in Rome, except for his mandatory ad limina visit (an innovation of only the last 5 or 6 centuries). The major basilicas are the metochia of the other patriarchates: since they are not in communion with the Vatican, they are defunct. Ironically the Vatican, St. Peter’s is technically the metochion of Constantinople.

Now this all may sound unimportant, just symbolic. But it is not symbol over substance, but the substance of the symbol.

As SS Ignatius and Clement show, the Early Church saw the bishop as the font of Catholicism and unity. And when you look into how the Church of the first milleminium wove that into the life fo the Church, you see that the Orthodox continue the same, whereas the Vatican has changed them into “all roads lead to Rome,” which was not the practice of the Church.

I’ll post more later, I think I’m at the limit.
 
Thanks Nicholas.
Can I ask what is meant by “canonical” Orthodox Church? (versus one that would not be called canonical)
In communion with the rest of the Church.

An example would be the SSPX or Old Catholics. They both use Catholic in their name and consider themselves to be Catholic but they are not in communion with the Pope. They would be non-canonical.

There are a number of schismatic and vagante groups that use the term Orthodox but are not in communion with the Church. They are non-canonical.

Yours in Christ
Joe
 
The following interchange between myself and Isa Almisry on an Apologetics thread raised some off topic questions. So I’m bringing it here in hopes someone can answer those questions.

Isa’s response indicates complete unity in teaching on faith and morals in the various orthodox churches. (I’ll take her word for it, unless someone else knows different.)

The question it raised for me was how much unity there was between the churches when it came to liturgical sharing. A couple of specific areas:
  1. Reception of the sacraments by the laity.
    Can someone who belongs to, say the Russian Orthodox Church, fulfill their Sunday obligation by going to a Greek Orthodox Mass - when it’s not a case of necessity. (Do they call it Mass?)
    Same question for Baptism, Confession, Confirmation, Marriage
.
I’ll give you an example, from my own family:
I, an Arab Orthodox, was married to my ex-wife, at the time Romanian Orthodox, by a Russian Orthodox priest, ordained by his foster-father, the Latvian Orthodox (yes, Seinfeld fans, the Church exists, but not as portrayed on Seinfeld) metropolitan, in the American (Orthodox Church in America) Cathedral in Chicago. The only issue was that the priest asked for proof of my bride to be’s baptism.
My oldest son was baptised by an Arab Orthodox priest in the same American Orthodox cathedral (we chrismate/confirm immediately after baptism). His godmother was a Coptic Orthodox who was going to an American Orthodox parish. My second son was baptized in an Antiochean/Arab Orthodox parish with the assitence of a Western Rite Orthodox priest.
  1. Priests. Would an Orthodox priest of one branch ever be allowed to celebrate Mass at a Church of a different branch?
    In the Catholic Church, priests of different rites are allowed to say Mass in parishes that are of a different rite. They can also serve on a regular basis. (Eg. I know one Latin rite parish where one of the assistants for several years came from India and was of the Malobar rite. ) I was wondering if the unity between the various Orthodox Churches had a similar practice.
Yes. All Western Rite Orthodox (there aren’t many) must be biritual, to use the Vatican term for it.
All priests can serve anywhere, they just need permission from their home bishop and the bishop in whose Church he will be serving. The laity also are supposed to have letters of good standing to transfer to another parish. You are somewhat more tied to your parish in Orthodoxy. If you have a father confessor who is not your parish priest, that’s ok (and for the priest’s family, mandatory), but you should let your parish priest know.
 
.
I’ll give you an example, from my own family:
I, an Arab Orthodox, was married to my ex-wife, at the time Romanian Orthodox, by a Russian Orthodox priest, ordained by his foster-father, the Latvian Orthodox (yes, Seinfeld fans, the Church exists, but not as portrayed on Seinfeld) metropolitan, in the American (Orthodox Church in America) Cathedral in Chicago. The only issue was that the priest asked for proof of my bride to be’s baptism.
My oldest son was baptised by an Arab Orthodox priest in the same American Orthodox cathedral (we chrismate/confirm immediately after baptism). His godmother was a Coptic Orthodox who was going to an American Orthodox parish. My second son was baptized in an Antiochean/Arab Orthodox parish with the assitence of a Western Rite Orthodox priest.

Yes. All Western Rite Orthodox (there aren’t many) must be biritual, to use the Vatican term for it.
All priests can serve anywhere, they just need permission from their home bishop and the bishop in whose Church he will be serving. The laity also are supposed to have letters of good standing to transfer to another parish. You are somewhat more tied to your parish in Orthodoxy. If you have a father confessor who is not your parish priest, that’s ok (and for the priest’s family, mandatory), but you should let your parish priest know.
Saying “Latin” or “Roman” would suffice here. I’m sure you know that the Vatican is a city and not the Catholic Church itself, yes? Please show the Catholic Church some respect, regardless of how much you dislike us.

And what is this “Arab Orthodox?” I can’t find anything about them. I know of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch, but I have never heard of any “Arab Orthodox.” Is this a real entity?

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew
 
I’m pretty sure there is no problem of any Orthodox receiving the Sacraments in any of the Orthodox branches.
I am sure you mean no disrespect, but Holy Orthodoxy does not consist of “branches” any more than the Papal Catholic church is “branches”. It is one church.

The synods in Holy Orthodoxy generally conform to national or regional patterns, just like the ancient church, and similar to your national conferences of bishops, the USCCB or CBCEW for examples.
 
Saying “Latin” or “Roman” would suffice here. I’m sure you know that the Vatican is a city and not the Catholic Church itself, yes? Please show the Catholic Church some respect, regardless of how much you dislike us.

And what is this “Arab Orthodox?” I can’t find anything about them. I know of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch, but I have never heard of any “Arab Orthodox.” Is this a real entity?

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew
Just to pick a nit here, most Catholics will refer to the Holy See and the Curia there as “The Vatican”. I know.

No disrespect intended.

And the Vatican is not a real city anyway, it’s a neighborhood of Rome artificially separated by politics.

There are Arab Orthodox in Syria, Jordan, Israel, the Palestine state and Egypt. If you don’t know this I am surprised. Most are Melkite Orthodox, in other words they worship using the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom/Saint Basil. Many are part of the Patriarchate of Antioch. There are some within the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and those in Africa follow the Pope of Alexandria.

Isa is an Arab.

I am Polish.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
*Michael

Volga Swim Team 2005
*
 
Other than language and history, are there differences in the Orthodox Churches? Liturgically maybe? Not terminology or titles so much…
 
Just to pick a nit here, most Catholics will refer to the Holy See and the Curia there as “The Vatican”. I know.

No disrespect intended.

And the Vatican is not a real city anyway, it’s a neighborhood of Rome artificially separated by politics.

There are Arab Orthodox in Syria, Jordan, Israel, the Palestine state and Egypt. If you don’t know this I am surprised. Most are Melkite Orthodox, in other words they worship using the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom/Saint Basil. Many are part of the Patriarchate of Antioch. There are some within the Patriarchate of Jerusalem and those in Africa follow the Pope of Alexandria.

Isa is an Arab.

I am Polish.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
*Michael

Volga Swim Team 2005*
Cheers, my fellow Orthodox Pole! 😃
 
Other than language and history, are there differences in the Orthodox Churches? Liturgically maybe? Not terminology or titles so much…
There are slight variations.

You can see that for yourself if you observe the differences between the Byzantine-Slavonic Catholics (Ruthenians and Ukrainians) and the Melkite Catholics, who are Arabs. You might not be able to visit, but perhaps you will find material on You-tube that will help, there is a lot of stuff out there.

Both will follow the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom. The Vatican term applied the differences is 'Recension". I think the term is suitable.

Michael
 
There are slight variations.

You can see that for yourself if you observe the differences between the Byzantine-Slavonic Catholics (Ruthenians and Ukrainians) and the Melkite Catholics, who are Arabs. You might not be able to visit, but perhaps you will find material on You-tube that will help, there is a lot of stuff out there.

Both will follow the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom. The Vatican term applied the differences is 'Recension". I think the term is suitable.

Michael
Ok, but by and large, they all follow some form of the same Liturgy?
 
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