Unity of believers: defining doctrines vs. simple gospel.

[mesl4]

I have read many posts saying that all the other (non-Catholic) churches lead to division, I was thinking the opposite. In reading church history, I thought it was so sad that there had to be divisions among fellow Christians who loved God, simply because people defined things differently. It was sad to me when Arius (?) came into the council to present the idea he had on the relationship of Jesus and Father, and the majority yelled, “heresy!” and it through everything into a big fuss and divisions, etc. I thought, “Man, couldn’t they just’ve left it as 'we don’t really know the exact relationship but that he is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Saviour of mankind and deserves our worship, will come again to judge the living and dead, died and rose” as the gospels/epistles state? If it was confusing, then maybe it didn’t really matter that much. Seems like there were several verses in the NT that state what the pure/simple gospel was to be believed (Son of God, died and rose for our sake, to resurrect us as well, and to love him and others as primary importance). I wonder if that is what defines the body of Christ and the Church. That would include many more, bring unity, not division. That would include the “cults”: Mormons, JWs, 7th Day Adv, Protestants, Catholics, and ??? If we’re not against him we’re for him right? Can you imagine the unity when we all see Christ coming and raise our hands in praise and worship, looking forward to uniting w/him? :dancing: :extrahappy: :bounce: :bowdown2: :clapping: :bowdown:
I think all the above believers would run to him and noone would care who defined the trinity in which way, or who held to certain practices, etc. God would see us from the inside out and unite all those lovers of him to himself. Anyway, that’s how I envision the future. Maybe I’m being optomistic

 

[Trishie]

I know how you feel. Jesus wants us to be united. He prayed to the Father:
“I pray also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may be holy by being one as we are.” [John 17]

He also said,

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God still, and trust in me.
There are many rooms in my Father’s house; if there were not, I should have told you. I am going now to prepare a place for you, and after I have gone to prepare you a place, I shall return to take you with me; so that where I am you may be too…

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me. If you know me, you know my Father too. From this moment, you know Him and have seen Him. To have seen me is to have seen the Father.” [John 14:1-4, 6-7]

 

[Trishie]

My friend, take courage in these words from the Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic, LUMEN GENTIUM, solemnly promulgated by his holiness Pope Paul v1 on November 21,
1964

"15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits.

Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth."

 

[bpbasilphx]

We are to be united in TRUTH, not merely unity for unity’s sake.

Arius was teaching ANOTHER Jesus, the wrong one, and the flock of Christ did NOT recognize it.

And THIS is the simple Gospel.

 

[ralphinal]

We are to be united in TRUTH, not merely unity for unity’s sake.

Arius was teaching ANOTHER Jesus, the wrong one, and the flock of Christ did NOT recognize it.

And THIS is the simple Gospel.

I agree 100%.

We should add as well that Jesus KNEW that following him correctly would lead to fathers agains sons. It was clear that he understood that the world would be against his followers. This means no compromising the Truth for peace and quiet. If someone is teaching lies, we should expose them. If someone is teaching a way that is incorrect, we should correct them. Peace and false unity is no substitute for the right relationship with Christ.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Arius (?) came into the council to present the idea he had on the relationship of Jesus and Father, and the majority yelled, “heresy!” and it through everything into a big fuss and divisions, etc. I thought, “Man, couldn’t they just’ve left it as 'we don’t really know the exact relationship but that he is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Saviour of mankind and deserves our worship, will come again to judge the living and dead, died and rose” as the gospels/epistles state? If it was confusing, then maybe it didn’t really matter that much.

When I hear someone speculating that certain truths don’t “really matter that much” I give pause. In it’s essence, the truth itself is Jesus Christ (Jn 14:6). Scripture itself is Christ in it’s essence because He is the Word (Jn 1:1). We are told to advance sound doctrine (Titus 2:1). You see how the truth reveals Christ. Thus, doctrines are of the utmost importance.

 

[TriuneUnity]

We are to be united in TRUTH, not merely unity for unity’s sake.

Arius was teaching ANOTHER Jesus, the wrong one, and the flock of Christ did NOT recognize it.

And THIS is the simple Gospel.

We’re on different sides of the Christian spectrum, bpb, but I agree with you 100%.

 

[mesl4]

. This means no compromising the Truth for peace and quiet. If someone is teaching lies, we should expose them. If someone is teaching a way that is incorrect, we should correct them. Peace and false unity is no substitute for the right relationship with Christ.

Yeah on obvious things (like Jesus being a man who says he is the Son of God/Messiah, born of a virgin, died,rose,) those are things we know are true and were verifiable at the time. The Trinity was not understood well which is why the debate came along I thought. It’s not clear in scripture and took much digging to come up w/that conclusion. Why can’t it be Truth enough just to say what Jesus said…that he is one with the Father, from the Father, in the Father, Father in him that he’d send the Comforter/HOly Spirit to teach us, etc. That they are one. But not get all technical on how that oneness is because does it matter? What matters is loving him, and trying to follow him and know what he wants us to do and how to live and how to love. Does he really care if we understand the trinity? HOw can we understand the ways of GOd anyway? How can we understand the trinity/relationship of the godhead when it is so mysterious? So why have to define it and cause division among those that have a hard time. If people agree w/the same principles as Jesus taught and lean on him for righteousness, isn’t that is message?

 

[ralphinal]

Lots of stuff. I will try to break it down.

Yeah on obvious things (like Jesus being a man who says he is the Son of God/Messiah, born of a virgin, died,rose,) those are things we know are true and were verifiable at the time.

By simply putting Son of God in that list, you negate what that means. To be God’s Son, in the way Jesus said it, is to imply that he is of the same substance as God and, in some ways, equal to him. The Early Jews saw it that way because they tried to stone him, saying he made himself equal to God.

The Trinity was not understood well which is why the debate came along I thought. It’s not clear in scripture and took much digging to come up w/that conclusion. Why can’t it be Truth enough just to say what Jesus said…that he is one with the Father, from the Father, in the Father, Father in him that he’d send the Comforter/HOly Spirit to teach us, etc. That they are one. But not get all technical on how that oneness is because does it matter?

The Holy Spirit lead us to the understanding that we have. IT is VERY important because if you do not understand what little we can about the Trinity, you can end up in either Polytheism (Three gods, united in goals) or a false understanding that the Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit is too or he is just a force like electricity.

What matters is loving him, and trying to follow him and know what he wants us to do and how to live and how to love.

There is some truth to this. You must understand that knowing what he wants us to do includes his desire that we understand that which he has revealed to us.

Does he really care if we understand the trinity?

If he did not care, he would not have lead us to what understanding we have

HOw can we understand the ways of GOd anyway? How can we understand the trinity/relationship of the godhead when it is so mysterious?

The answer to both is revelation: God himself told us. Due to limits of human intellect, we cannot know or understand it fully.

So why have to define it and cause division among those that have a hard time. If people agree w/the same principles as Jesus taught and lean on him for righteousness, isn’t that is message?

Then why did Jesus pray that we be one as he and the Father are one? Let us take a current example: homosexual marriage. How can different Christian denomination have different conclusions about it if we are all looking at the same Book?

 

[mesl4]

by ralphinal
Lots of stuff. I will try to break it down.

By simply putting Son of God in that list, you negate what that means. To be God’s Son, in the way Jesus said it, is to imply that he is of the same substance as God and, in some ways, equal to him. The Early Jews saw it that way because they tried to stone him, saying he made himself equal to God.

The Holy Spirit lead us to the understanding that we have. IT is VERY important because if you do not understand what little we can about the Trinity, you can end up in either Polytheism (Three gods, united in goals) or a false understanding that the Father is the Son and the Holy Spirit is too or he is just a force like electricity.

There is some truth to this. You must understand that knowing what he wants us to do includes his desire that we understand that which he has revealed to us.

If he did not care, he would not have lead us to what understanding we have

We can be one without understanding it or getting it right. I don’t have to know water is H2O in order for it to benefit me. For me to be thirsty, and drink, and know it’s what I need and that it’s in me. It really doesn’t matter if I know what it’s made of. If I don’t know what Jesus/God/HS is made of , but I seek him and yearn for him and strive to follow his teachings on how to love others, I can’t imagine he would let that person be condemned for that.

Let me be clear, I do believe in the Trinity and am a Christian but I just don’t see the need to argue about the relationship of the Trinity. I think/hope that my LDS friends will be saved because of their love for God and desire to please him. They worship the Father and believe in the oneness of Father Son and Holy Ghost, but a oneness in purpose. One as we are one. It’s pretty Biblical actually. even if they have a polytheistic theology, and follow a false prophet, they don’t know it. Aside form the polygamy history, they arent’ teaching a lifestyle contrary to any Biblical teachings are they?

The answer to both is revelation: God himself told us. Due to limits of human intellect, we cannot know or understand it fully.

Then why did Jesus pray that we be one as he and the Father are one? Let us take a current example: homosexual marriage. How can different Christian denomination have different conclusions about it if we are all looking at the same Book?

There are different interpretations because people read into it aside from what it says. The Bible clearly states homosexuality is an abomination. It is not loving to allow someone to sin or go against God’s will. If someone says that, they are going against the Bible. It is easy to know if someone is against the Bible when there are clear teachings. The trinity is not a clear teaching though.

 

[mercygate]

Yeah on obvious things (like Jesus being a man who says he is the Son of God/Messiah, born of a virgin, died,rose,) those are things we know are true and were verifiable at the time. The Trinity was not understood well which is why the debate came along I thought. It’s not clear in scripture and took much digging to come up w/that conclusion. Why can’t it be Truth enough just to say what Jesus said…that he is one with the Father, from the Father, in the Father, Father in him that he’d send the Comforter/HOly Spirit to teach us, etc. That they are one. But not get all technical on how that oneness is because does it matter? What matters is loving him, and trying to follow him and know what he wants us to do and how to live and how to love. Does he really care if we understand the trinity? HOw can we understand the ways of GOd anyway? How can we understand the trinity/relationship of the godhead when it is so mysterious? So why have to define it and cause division among those that have a hard time. If people agree w/the same principles as Jesus taught and lean on him for righteousness, isn’t that is message?

God may not care if I understand the Trinity but the question of the godhead is VERY important, and unity on the subject is important because an error in the beginning makes for a catastrophe down the road. It is critical that the Church understand (to the extent the human mind can even approach this stuff) what she teaches. The difference between Jesus who is a “man” with a divine spirit or a Jesus who is a divine spirit wearing a man’s body, or a man who is just a man who acts under the power of God is HUGE. The nature of salvation (from what?) absolutely and totally depends on Who Jesus IS.

He is the way, the truth and the life. TRUTH matters. Big time!

 

[mercygate]

God may not care if I understand the Trinity but the question of the godhead is VERY important, and unity on the subject is important because an error in the beginning makes for a catastrophe down the road. It is critical that the Church understand (to the extent the human mind can even approach this stuff) what she teaches. The difference between Jesus who is a “man” with a divine spirit or a Jesus who is a divine spirit wearing a man’s body, or a man who is just a man who acts under the power of God is HUGE. The nature of salvation (from what?) absolutely and totally depends on Who Jesus IS.

He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Truth matters.

 

[ralphinal]

We can be one without understanding it or getting it right. I don’t have to know water is H2O in order for it to benefit me. For me to be thirsty, and drink, and know it’s what I need and that it’s in me. It really doesn’t matter if I know what it’s made of. If I don’t know what Jesus/God/HS is made of , but I seek him and yearn for him and strive to follow his teachings on how to love others, I can’t imagine he would let that person be condemned for that.

Yes, but if you start teaching that Jesus, the Father, and the HS are not one God, you are no longer worshiping the same God.

Let me be clear, I do believe in the Trinity and am a Christian but I just don’t see the need to argue about the relationship of the Trinity. I think/hope that my LDS friends will be saved because of their love for God and desire to please him. They worship the Father and believe in the oneness of Father Son and Holy Ghost, but a oneness in purpose. One as we are one. It’s pretty Biblical actually. even if they have a polytheistic theology, and follow a false prophet, they don’t know it. Aside form the polygamy history, they arent’ teaching a lifestyle contrary to any Biblical teachings are they?

Polytheism is inherently anti-Biblical. Sorry. No other way around it. Yes, the moral code they have is fine. Following a false prophet is problematic as well.

There are different interpretations because people read into it aside from what it says. The Bible clearly states homosexuality is an abomination. It is not loving to allow someone to sin or go against God’s will. If someone says that, they are going against the Bible. It is easy to know if someone is against the Bible when there are clear teachings. The trinity is not a clear teaching though.

You are half right: it is all about people reading their own issues into it. Part of the issue JS had with the Trinity is that he did not understand it. We cannot change God because we do not understand him. The Trinity is as clear as humans can understand.