Unity with so much dissention?

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued)
It would be nice to engage dissenters in dialog in such a way that it didn’t escalate to a fight. I believe we can achieve that on this very board, if not on this very thread. Here, I’ll try starting right now to do my part. Well, maybe I’m not quite ready to give up a little animosity.

Ultimately, the issue is not about me or you or whoever. Ultimately, the issue is about authority and our willingness to accept it or reject it.

If the issue is not about me or you or anybody else, then what issue is there?

You want to stamp out anti-authoritarian attitudes. You might start by looking at the authorities and their little crusaders the way many people see them.

You see, we are like monkeys climbing the tree of knowledge that we all have climbed since Adam and Eve gave us the idea. We want to get up top because we want to see the view. Sometimes the monkeys at the top look down and see all the smiling faces looking up at them. When the ones at the bottom look up, all the see is a bunch of tail ends. (OK, just kidding. I was told that joke at my last job in a bureacracy and thought I’d try to sneak it in here.)

If one rejects it than one needs to be honest about it and not go about like nothings going on.

Yes, you are right. They should put a scarlet letter on their forehead, wear sackcloth and ashes, and grovel outside the Church as the real Catholics enter for their ceremony for which those beggars outside will never be able to dress properly. I wish they’d just go away; let’s turn on the sprinkler and maybe they’ll at least be showered…

I am all for proper catechesis, but some will not even accept the truth after being instructed in it. In this case they need to be honest and follow their convictions.

Yeah, and if it doesn’t sink in after the second time, shout it very loudly. If that doesn’t work, repeatedly threaten them, tell them they are hellbound and are mixed up, and that they should really leave the Church in shame for pretending to be like one of us.

The Church is voluntary. No one is forced to belong to her. If the call to fidelity cost us numbers, so be it. The truth is not about numbers, the truth stands on its own even if no one believes.

You are right. The Church should not risk the public disgrace of having me as a member. She baptized me in the cradle (btw are you a cradle or convert) and says, as AAA apologists have upheld, that I am a Catholic forever even if I’m excommunicated or denounce my faith.

Quite seriously, if you are saying that those who have problems with some beliefs and aren’t actively trying to change at any given moment, should not call themselves Catholic because we aren’t, then you yourself are guilty of heresy, sir. If you ask us to leave the Church, then you have committed the spiritual (but not physical) equivalent of an abortion.

We imperfectly believing marginal Catholics are very inconvenient and embarrassing for the angels who populate the pews every week. Cast them out of the Body of Christ and let them wither without the life-giving power of the Eucharist.

Come to think of it, why don’t we restart the Inquisition while we’re at it? Maybe if you torture me enough I’ll confess to whatever you think I should, then you can feel all good that you have helped save my soul.

Alan

 

[The_Augustinian]

Certainly, on an intellectual level, I would agree, that there’s a quite odd cognitive dissonance between the “cafeteria” Catholic’s practice and their own beliefs. Why remain in a Church with which they disagree? That question has puzzled me. I used to be very harsh with these Catholics, because they seemed to be picking and choosing what they wanted to believe.

But, thinking about it, I realized that we men, we creatures of God, are not like angels: we are not pure intellect, able to irrevocably choose between good and evil. Created to a lesser level, we struggle with our beliefs as the time goes on, and I think it’s not good to make those who struggle with these issues feel unwelcome in the Church.

On the other hand, while we may be lenient with the rank-and-file laymen, we ought to be twice as hard with the teachers in charge: the Richard McBriens, Joan Chittisters, and the like outspoken dissenters. They are the wolves and sheep’s clothing, who confuse God’s people. As such, their teachings, insofar as they are out of step with the eternal teachings of the Church, ought to be suppressed, preferably as quietly as possible so as to not let the dissenters make a big stink about it.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

The Augustinian:

On the other hand, while we may be lenient with the rank-and-file laymen, we ought to be twice as hard with the teachers in charge: the Richard McBriens, Joan Chittisters, and the like outspoken dissenters. They are the wolves and sheep’s clothing, who confuse God’s people. As such, their teachings, insofar as they are out of step with the eternal teachings of the Church, ought to be suppressed, preferably as quietly as possible so as to not let the dissenters make a big stink about it.

I don’t know these people, but I agree that teachers who use the Church’s authority for their position should not teach against what the Church teachese. If I put on a program in our diocese, soon the diocese will require each person such as me to sign an agreement that we will not go against Church teachings when using her resources and teaching in her name.

Alan

 

[dennisknapp]

quote=AlanFromWichita
It would be nice to engage dissenters in dialog in such a way that it didn’t escalate to a fight. I believe we can achieve that on this very board, if not on this very thread. Here, I’ll try starting right now to do my part. Well, maybe I’m not quite ready to give up a little animosity.

If the issue is not about me or you or anybody else, then what issue is there?

You want to stamp out anti-authoritarian attitudes. You might start by looking at the authorities and their little crusaders the way many people see them.

You see, we are like monkeys climbing the tree of knowledge that we all have climbed since Adam and Eve gave us the idea. We want to get up top because we want to see the view. Sometimes the monkeys at the top look down and see all the smiling faces looking up at them. When the ones at the bottom look up, all the see is a bunch of tail ends. (OK, just kidding. I was told that joke at my last job in a bureacracy and thought I’d try to sneak it in here.)

Yes, you are right. They should put a scarlet letter on their forehead, wear sackcloth and ashes, and grovel outside the Church as the real Catholics enter for their ceremony for which those beggars outside will never be able to dress properly. I wish they’d just go away; let’s turn on the sprinkler and maybe they’ll at least be showered…

Yeah, and if it doesn’t sink in after the second time, shout it very loudly. If that doesn’t work, repeatedly threaten them, tell them they are hellbound and are mixed up, and that they should really leave the Church in shame for pretending to be like one of us.

You are right. The Church should not risk the public disgrace of having me as a member. She baptized me in the cradle (btw are you a cradle or convert) and says, as AAA apologists have upheld, that I am a Catholic forever even if I’m excommunicated or denounce my faith.

Quite seriously, if you are saying that those who have problems with some beliefs and aren’t actively trying to change at any given moment, should not call themselves Catholic because we aren’t, then you yourself are guilty of heresy, sir. If you ask us to leave the Church, then you have committed the spiritual (but not physical) equivalent of an abortion.

We imperfectly believing marginal Catholics are very inconvenient and embarrassing for the angels who populate the pews every week. Cast them out of the Body of Christ and let them wither without the life-giving power of the Eucharist.

Come to think of it, why don’t we restart the Inquisition while we’re at it? Maybe if you torture me enough I’ll confess to whatever you think I should, then you can feel all good that you have helped save my soul.

Alan
[/quote]

This is not a call for an Inquisition or a witch hunt, but a call to personal honesty.

The people who dissent can stay in the Church as long as they wish. My only concern is that they be honest with themselves…that is all.

Why is this such a hard thing to understand. I am not trying to read heart or judge someones eternal destiny. My concern is for issues that foundational to who we are as Catholics.

For me the issue should not be personal, but about Truth.

Peace

 

[Elzee]

After the death of Pope John Paul II a reporter asked a Bishop if the Pope would consider American ‘Cafeteria Catholics’ as ‘Catholic’. The Bishop I thought, had a great answer. It was similar to “I think he would rightly think that we are all on the road to conversion. Some people are just further down the road than others.”

I can’t remember the Bishop’s name or the exact quote, but this was the essence of it. It really enlightened me.

 

[coralewisjr]

AlanFromWichita:

Here’s how to promote unity.

Do not worry, and do not judge.

Many very “orthodox” Catholics used to be “cafeteria” Catholics.

For the past few years, I have had a number of very extraordinary experiences that can only be described as intensive spiritual warfare along with severe bipolar illness. Luckily I am stabilizing, but I went through times of holding steadfast to Catholic faith because that’s all I had to make it through some days, and at times wishing the entire Church would collapse. This was partly due to some very unfortunate experiences I had with certain Church officials which actually contributed to my spiritual and mental illness. It was only through the Holy Spirit and good spiritual direction that I was healed – I’d say 99% at this point, and feel better than ever most of the time.

My point in bringing all this up is that sometimes people go through phases of different understanding of the whole concept of reality, and by consequence, the meaning of the Church, her teachings, and her actions. Many of the times when I was most harshly accused of dissenting against the Church, it was really just the opposite in my heart. In my heart I was defending her against the ignorance of her own leaders. Orthodox Catholics called me every name in the book, right here on this very forum. They were talking to a manic-depressive trying to get a grip on reality and his role in the Church. I was called non-Catholic, anti-Catholic, evil, doomed to eternal fire, and I forgot what all else by you loving Catholics who were only trying to educate me and perform spiritual acts of mercy.

Well guess what? Something finally snapped. I recognized that I have to not care whatsoever about the guilt trip and scare tactics that were being laid on me in order to lay aside the shackles that were keeping me down. I finally decided I don’t really care what any other Catholic, even if he’s the Pope, thinkgs about a matter; I was going to get a grip on my own version of reality and then go from there.

I can probably look at the forums and see how I have healed all along, and I can assure you the condemnation I got in the name of “charible education” was very painful.

If you want someone to come over to your side, go over to where they are and walk with them as a friend. Call to them from your side. Don’t, however sling mudballs at them and call them dirty names and tell them how unfit they are or they will never come your way.

You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

You can gain respect of more cafeteria Catholics by listening than by lecturing. Many of them have real issues that could possibly be worked if people were non-judgmental in hearing their pain, and helping them. I know we have it in us on this forum because I’ve seen it.

Speak to a brother in anger, or tell him he is less of a Catholic than you because believes this or that or does this or that, and you, my friend, are sinning just as much as he and you will be judged by your own measure.

Peace,
Alan

Alan, your illness has made you strong and wise. I’m so glad that you’re 99% healed now and I hope that you stay well for most - if not all - of the rest of your life.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

[AlanFromWichita]

dennisknapp:

This is not a call for an Inquisition or a witch hunt, but a call to personal honesty.

I hear you, and I believe you see it that way. I am sorry if I mischaracterized what you said. I should be more careful, because I’m certain the last day or so I have a pretty good angry filter going for what I read, so I mistake love for hate and vice versa. If I have stereotyped you wrongly, then I do apologize.

I meant every word of what I said against someone at some time, but in my passive-aggressive nature I just built up all this rage for 46 years and decided to let it all out on anyone I saw on these “kick the bums out” thread. I was really yelling against the worst of everyone I’ve ever known, so again I’m sorry that I spewed it right on you. May I offer you a coupon to get your suit cleaned?

The people who dissent can stay in the Church as long as they wish. My only concern is that they be honest with themselves…that is all.

Thank you.

Why is this such a hard thing to understand. I am not trying to read heart or judge someones eternal destiny. My concern is for issues that foundational to who we are as Catholics.

For me the issue should not be personal, but about Truth.

Peace

The problem isn’t in a zeal to promote the truth, but to do it wisely. Paul acts weak around the weak, in order to win the weak.

Strange thing. I never smoked until once I tried cigars for a few months. For the first time I joined some of my male in-laws for cigars. Suddently they all liked me more because that made me seem “less perfect” and “more of a real person” to them than I apparently had seemed. Thus I gained their hearts by smoking a cigar with them. Luckily, I have since quit cigars.

I wonder if that’s why Jesus drank with the sinners? A sinner is more likely to take advice from a drinking buddy than some clean-cut authority figure who seems to have a perfect life. If Jesus came as a powerful king, those dudes in the tavern would never have even gotten to meet Him.

Alan

 

[reen12]

Dear dennisknapp,

quote: dennisknapp

The truth is not about numbers, the truth stands on its own even if no one believes.

The truth is a Person, Jesus.

He goes after the small, lost sheep, tends his
wounds and speaks gently to it, in it’s confusion
and even its error.
“I would that not one of these be lost.”

Perhaps it got lost to *begin *with, because of
its confusion and error.

Could we not help Jesus tend His flock with
His attitude, instead of the method of
Thomas Acquinas and his definitions?

Acquinas spoke to the saved.
Jesus speaks to the lost.
reen12

 

[dennisknapp]

AlanFromWichita:

I hear you, and I believe you see it that way. I am sorry if I mischaracterized what you said. I should be more careful, because I’m certain the last day or so I have a pretty good angry filter going for what I read, so I mistake love for hate and vice versa. If I have stereotyped you wrongly, then I do apologize.

I meant every word of what I said against someone at some time, but in my passive-aggressive nature I just built up all this rage for 46 years and decided to let it all out on anyone I saw on these “kick the bums out” thread. I was really yelling against the worst of everyone I’ve ever known, so again I’m sorry that I spewed it right on you. May I offer you a coupon to get your suit cleaned?

Thank you.

The problem isn’t in a zeal to promote the truth, but to do it wisely. Paul acts weak around the weak, in order to win the weak.

Strange thing. I never smoked until once I tried cigars for a few months. For the first time I joined some of my male in-laws for cigars. Suddently they all liked me more because that made me seem “less perfect” and “more of a real person” to them than I apparently had seemed. Thus I gained their hearts by smoking a cigar with them. Luckily, I have since quit cigars.

I wonder if that’s why Jesus drank with the sinners? A sinner is more likely to take advice from a drinking buddy than some clean-cut authority figure who seems to have a perfect life. If Jesus came as a powerful king, those dudes in the tavern would never have even gotten to meet Him.

Alan

Again, I am not making a judgment call on the status of someone’s soul.

All I am asking for is personal integrity. I for one could not belong to an institution that I disagreed with, but that’s just me.

We should love all people, and part of that love is showing them the truth for their sake. Wouldn’t you agree?

Peace

 

[dennisknapp]

reen12:

The truth is a Person, Jesus.

Acquinas spoke to the saved.
Jesus speaks to the lost.
reen12

But they both spoke the truth.

Is truth not of value anymore?

Peace

 

[reen12]

Dear dennisknapp,

Truth is always of value.

The best way that I can respond to your question, is to
recommed the article on Benedict XVI in this
month’s issue of Crisis magazine.

I read it at breakfast this morning and almost
jumped out of my chair with joy!

OK, this is how I see apologetics:

There will *always *be a need for some Catholics
to be very familiar with the work of Thomas Acquinas.

Someone comes along, well-versed in their
own tradition, and issues a challenge to the
Catholic faith in a fashion that* requires* the
work of Thomas Acquinas to refute. I’m at
peace with this.

It is in the realm of evangelization that I can
see difficulty. As I said, that difficulty of
mine was addressed in the article on the
new Pope. Wonderful! It states what I’ve
thought for a while now.
In John Paul II we had a philosopher.
In Benedict XVI we have a theologian par excellence.

Both of these men will have a great impact on
the life of the Church far forward from their
own time.

---

We cannot engage people, who have embraced
existentialism, with Acquinas. Nor secular
humanism, for that matter.
We might reach them with the good news,
in their existenial concerns. Not with theological
propositions; not with a defense of the Faith
in Acquinian fashion, but by the gospel itself…
biblically.

Then, if they embrace the faith and have a problem
with a particular element of same, bring on the
masters of Acquinas!
[And better you, than me! I’d mess it up for sure]

Just my take.

reen12*

 

[dwc]

What I’ve wondered since I’ve been reading this board is why the term Cafeteria Catholic is generally reserved for those who question church teachings on ABC or homosexuality or abortion, but never for those who disagree or fail to perfectly practice the church’s social justice teachings? It seems to me, reading several threads going on, that many very proudly orthodox catholics disregard, minimize and fail to perfectly practice the call to care for the poor, the sick, the unjustly convicted, the mentally ill, etc.

I’m one of those Catholics Alan mentioned – you know, the one who faithfully gives for each and every collection and campaign, attends mass faithfully, paints the school, helps build playgrounds, stocks the food pantry, volunteers at the school – you know, all that little stuff that helps the church run – yet doesn’t know all the wonderful theological points people argue over in this forum. So I’m asking a sincere question – is there a particular reason cafeteria catholics are only those who pick and choose among the church’s sexual teachings, as opposed to her teachings in all the other areas?

 

[scylla]

Thanks reen,

I am a Catholic, who considers himself orthodox, who once was outside the Church non-denom because earlier I was a Cafeteria Catholic. I think this is because I grew up in the 80’s with limited catechesis and a “have it your way” society influence. I wanted a religion on my terms so I drifted away.

My Cafeteria Catholicism upbringing led me to problems with authority (I had enough Catholicism in my background to question pastoral authority) in non-denominationalism and other churches which led me to study my way back to communion with the Catholic Church.

I have never read anything by Pope Benedict, but I will take a look at that as it looks interesting to me.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[reen12]

Hi, scylla,

I’m glad for your reply.

May I ask if the Catechism of the Catholic Church
played a part in your studies?

The article on Benedict XVI is well worth your
time, I think.

Best regards,
reen12

PS: I grew up in the 1950’s, and let me tell you,
catechetics was rigorous in those days. I
wouldn’t want to return to that, but I sure
don’t think that felt banners, guitar strumming,
and weak catechesis is the answer either!

 

[dennisknapp]

dwc:

What I’ve wondered since I’ve been reading this board is why the term Cafeteria Catholic is generally reserved for those who question church teachings on ABC or homosexuality or abortion, but never for those who disagree or fail to perfectly practice the church’s social justice teachings? It seems to me, reading several threads going on, that many very proudly orthodox catholics disregard, minimize and fail to perfectly practice the call to care for the poor, the sick, the unjustly convicted, the mentally ill, etc.

I’m one of those Catholics Alan mentioned – you know, the one who faithfully gives for each and every collection and campaign, attends mass faithfully, paints the school, helps build playgrounds, stocks the food pantry, volunteers at the school – you know, all that little stuff that helps the church run – yet doesn’t know all the wonderful theological points people argue over in this forum. So I’m asking a sincere question – is there a particular reason cafeteria catholics are only those who pick and choose among the church’s sexual teachings, as opposed to her teachings in all the other areas?

Catholic social teaching is important, but to violate it does not go against Natural law, as with ABC and homosexuality.

Also, there is some room to move in regards to Catholic social teachings. There is the ability to help the poor, and resources to do so that may hinder some from giving to the poor.

What is important in Catholic social teaching is the desire to help others, coupled with your ability to do so.

Peace

 

[reen12]

Hello, dwc,

quote:** dwc**

It seems to me, reading several threads going on, that many very proudly orthodox catholics disregard, minimize and fail to perfectly practice the call to care for the poor, the sick, the unjustly convicted, the mentally ill, etc.

Since I am seriously mentally ill [schizotypal, depression,
dissociation, post-traumatic stress, high anxiety] and
had a father who had schizophrenia and a mother who
is in the advanced stages of Altzheimer’s, perhaps I
can address the last part of your quote above.

When I was hospitalized for MI, the pastoral care
staff brought communion around and were
available if I wanted to speak with them.

The nursing home where my mother is, is run
by a Catholic hospital, adjacent to the home.
There are nuns there and the lay staff is
wonderful. I told my husband, “They have
more statues of the Blessed Mother than a
European cathedral!”

When my father was living, there was a Catholic
Church right down the road, where he could
walk for Mass if he felt up to it.

Each of us is given gifts and life experiences
that fit us for a particular work in the Church.
If people fail to engage the mentally ill, it is
more from a lack of knowledge, than a lack of
charity, I think.

You’re strong enuff to work in a food pantry.
I no longer am. [fibromyalgia]

If people are caring well for their families, their
ability to devote time to various efforts at
social justice vary over time. But many people
I know contribute money to the local Rescue
Mission, or clothing, or cleaning supplies.

Some people tend to do things quietly, in a
way that never particularly shows, I’ve found.

“Blessed are those that hunger for righteousness,
for they shall have their fill.”

Let those who feel called to stand up for the
unjustly convicted do so. But one human being
cannot possibly address all injustice. Those
injustices that they* can* affect are often things
that the Lord plunks down right in front of their
eyeballs.

Because of my difficulties with mental illness,
these forums provide me with a chance to
interact with people on topics I know a fair
amount about, without getting overly stressed.

Surely, it is an act of charity, on the part of
my fellow posters, to provide me with this
sense of fellowship…even if it is often devoted
to arcane points theological.

Be well, dwc,
reen12

 

[dwc]

Thanks reen and Dennis, for your replies. Can I ask one further question – with regard to the natural laws being the reason why the CC term is reserved for the sexual teachings – is that tied into infallible dogma in any way?

 

[dennisknapp]

dwc:

Thanks reen and Dennis, for your replies. Can I ask one further question – with regard to the natural laws being the reason why the CC term is reserved for the sexual teachings – is that tied into infallible dogma in any way?

Here is a link regarding Natural Law:

newadvent.org/cathen/09076a.htm

Hope it helps.

Peace

 

[slinky1882]

Church Militant:

Those who fail to believe or follow do not invalidate the truth or the unity of the truth that binds us together. We know where they stand because there is one voice of truth that they say they dissent from. We love them and share with them and pray for and with them, but in the end, if they reject the truth, then they have made their choice and Penny’s very attitude is the type that will have to admit that her eternal destiny is her own choice and doing. I don’t want her to leave or lose her soul, I want her to run this race with me and fight the battles alongside me, but if she doesn’t…someone else will, and when I get to heaven, if she is not there with me then there will be tears, but Jesus made us a promise. Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more, nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away.
Pax vobiscum,

CM is correct, Those that choose to doubt or even pervert can no more undo the Divine unity of the Church than the Union of the Trinity. Even if all feel away, the Divine would remain. Thanks and God Bless.

 

[Mickey]

reen12:

Since I am seriously mentally ill [schizotypal, depression,
dissociation, post-traumatic stress, high anxiety]

Hi reen!

Someone very close to me suffers from dissociation and fibromyalgia. It can be debilitating both mentally and physically. I will pray for you.

Prayers and Blessings,
Mickey