Unity

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I have a question for all of you,

I would like to ask and see what unity means to you? What do you all think unity will be like and how it will come about for all the Churches? I will post my thoughts later, I’m at work now.
 
Actually, unity is not something that Catholics have to work for. The Catholic Church possesses unity. The Church is composed of those who are united in both faith and government. Unfortunately, there are some groups (protestants, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) who have broken away from this unity. But this in no way affects the unity of the Church, which is perfectly united.

Often today we are told that unity is something that we must work for, but that is not what the Church has always taught. We may indeed work for to bring heretics and schismatics into unity with us, but heretics (protestants) and schismatics cannot destroy the unity of the Church, for the Church possesses perfect unity.

When someone, or some group, rejects a teaching of the Church, or the role of the Pope, rather than affecting the unity of the Church, they cut themselves off from the Church. That is what the Church has always taught. The following encyclical explains this very well.
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13satis.htm
 
Unity to me means that we as christians see all humans with the eyes of Jesus Christ. Loving our brothers and sisters no matter what they look like. Being united in Jesus Christ and doing ALL that he commanded us to do. 👍 God Bless.
 
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RSiscoe:
Actually, unity is not something that Catholics have to work for. The Catholic Church possesses unity. … Often today we are told that unity is something that we must work for, but that is not what the Church has always taught.
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This is an equivocation. Of course the Church has “unity”, but the point is, how do we bring people into that unity: how do we evangelize. From Satis Cognitum:
It is then undoubtedly the office of the church to guard Christian doctrine and to propagate it in its integrity and purity. But this is not all: the object for which the Church has been instituted is not wholly attained by the performance of this duty. For, since Jesus Christ delivered Himself up for the salvation of the human race, and to this end directed all His teaching and commands, so He ordered the Church to strive, by the truth of its doctrine, to sanctify and to save mankind.
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The Church has “unity” but we must do something, given that we have something.
 
"Unity" like in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church ?
 
Originally Posted by RSiscoe
Actually, unity is not something that Catholics have to work for. The Catholic Church possesses unity. … Often today we are told that unity is something that we must work for, but that is not what the Church has always taught.
FMRTRAD:
This is an equivocation. Of course the Church has “unity”, but the point is, how do we bring people into that unity: how do we evangelize.
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Sorry for the delay in responding. I have tried to respond two other times, but they keep getting deleted. Let’s try it one more time.

There are two points here: the unity of the Church, and brining others into that unity.

The reason I wrote what I did in my first post is because many people today do not understand that the Church possesses perfect united. They see groups that are not in the Church (Protestants, Orthodox, etc.) and think this has destroyed the unity of the Church. When a group breaks away from the Church they seperate themselves from the Church, but in no way affect the unity of the Church. You seem to understand this, but many today do not. Therefore, they think we must work to have unity in the Church. Actually what we are to work for is to bring Protestants, Jews, and others, into the unity of the Church. There is a subtle distinction that has been lost and led to some serious errors.

Those who fasely believe that the Church does not have unity, but must attain it, have falen into some serious errors that are doing serious harm to the Church. What they are attempting to di is to bring about a different kind of “unity”. Not a unity where others convert and enter into the unity of the Church, but rather a "unity in diversity: that is a unity of the Catholic Church with other Churches - a mixture of the true religion with false religions - God and the devil.

A few years ago, Cardinal Kasper, who is the President of the “Pontifical Council for promoting Christian unity” (God help us) said the following:

“Today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being ‘catholics’. This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II”.

He went on to say that the ecumenism of today seeks a “unity in diversity”, which means a unity of the true Church with false religions. This is very far from the truth.

It is true that we should desire to bring others into the Church. That is one of my main goals in life. However, many no longer seek to bring people into the Church. Instead they seek a false unity with those of other religions, without them coming into the Church.

A good example of this false unity is the new group that the American Cathoic Bishops have just signed on to. I forget the name, but it is a group existing of all denominations coexisting as one body. This is the kind of “unity” that Cardinal Kasper promotes and the kind Pope Leo XIII condemns in the encyclical I posted above.
 
Before we even approach unity, we have to have it in our own church. Calling others by such labels as: Liberal, Conservative, Fundamentalist Catholic, Etc. shows a lack of unity among Catholics, never mind other churches. The four marks of our church are; ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC. We must work for these Marks in our own parishes before we look outside for unity.

May God bless you,
Deacon Tony
 
Deacon Tony560:
Before we even approach unity, we have to have it in our own church. Calling others by such labels as: Liberal, Conservative, Fundamentalist Catholic, Etc. shows a lack of unity among Catholics, never mind other churches. The four marks of our church are; ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC. We must work for these Marks in our own parishes before we look outside for unity.

May God bless you,
Deacon Tony
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Good post. For people to be united, there must be, not only a unity of government, but also a unity of faith, or “unity of belief”. In other words, people must think the same (have the same faith) in order for there to be true unity.

That is why God set up His Church as a teaching Church so that the faithful would learn from the Church what to believe. If everyone “thinks for themselves” on matters of faith, there will be no unity, but only confusion (just look at the 30,000 + Protestant denominations). It is a fact that Catholics began to question the teachings of the Church (question the faith) for the most part in the mid 60’s and there after. Up to 1960 the Church was in pretty good shape. In fact, there is an interesting quote from Pius XII on the state of the Church in the late 50’s. I wish I had it handy. Basically, things were going very well: many conversions, strong faith, etc. Then came the 60’s and Catholics began to fall away from the faith in great numbers. Today in the US, it is reported that only 15% of Catholics attend Mass weekly. And many of those do not accept Church teaching on many issues.

Does anyone have any idea what caused this? Was there any significant event in the early 60’s that caused confusion within the Church? Since we know when the problems began (mid 60’s) we should try to find out what happened at that time to cause it. Any ideas?
 
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RSiscoe:
Actually, unity is not something that Catholics have to work for. The Catholic Church possesses unity. The Church is composed of those who are united in both faith and government. Unfortunately, there are some groups (protestants, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) who have broken away from this unity. But this in no way affects the unity of the Church, which is perfectly united.
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Amen.

“Make every effort to preserve the unity which has the Spirit as its origin and peace as its binding force. There is but on body and one Spirit, just as there is but one hope given all of you by your call. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and works through all and is in all.” Ephesians 4: 1-5
 
Dear friends

Unity of faith will not come about without tolerance. Everyone strives towards a personal relationship with Christ Jesus and this love then in this relationship must pass from us , out of us, to each other. We do not do this when we submerge ourselves in pride. Pride is the SOLE cause of disunity.

In pursuing a personal relationship with Christ Jesus we must recognise that there are differing spiritualities within this, this is echoed in the different orders within the church, Fransican, Dominican, Carmelite etc, which have all been ordained as possessiing full union with the One Holy catholic and Apostolic church and new orders may be formed in the future with Papal Approval. There is room for diversity of spirituality in the church as long as there is adhereance to the precepts of the Church.

What is for me spiritually is not for you, but we share two things in common and two things that will never seperate us as the Body of Christ, THE SACRAMENTS and LITURGY and those bind ALL spiritualities within this One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in Christ Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, proceeding to God the Father.

As for unity with other Christian denominations, whilever there is a dispute over the Real Presence of Christ Jesus in the Eucharist, there will be disunity. There can be no compromise on our part in such matters nor in matters regarding reconciliation, absolution, female priests,married priests and Marian devotion, etc

We are all united as Christians by Baptism, Baptism is valid in any Christian Denomination if the materials and form are there. Once Baptised all are part of the Body of Christ and are unified as such.

Further as a member of the human race of which Christ Jesus shared in our humanity, there is no getting away from the fact that we are unified in Him in our very humanity and as such unified with all other human beings, therefore everyone wears the face of Christ and we should love all humanity and seek to tolerate and find similar ground, to bring about unity and increase love and kindness between all people’s of faith or of no faith. Further than this all now are in Christ since He died for all humanity and all whether they realise it or not are striving towards God in Christ Jesus, there is no unity but in Christ and there is no unity achieveable outside of obedience to Him, the Holy Spirit and God the Father

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
You are correct when you speak of different orders; and even differing kinds of spirituality (as long as it is Catholic). However, I must comment on the following.

Teresa9 said:
"As for unity with other Christian denominations, whilever there is a dispute over the Real Presence of Christ Jesus in the Eucharist, there will be disunity. There can be no compromise on our part in such matters nor in matters regarding reconciliation, absolution, female priests,married priests and Marian devotion, etc
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You are right. Ther can be no comptimise on such matter as you have mentioned, nor on any other doctrines that form part of the Catholic Faith. We cannot compromise the faith, for the mere appearnce of “unity”, since faith is greater than unity.
We are all united as Christians by Baptism, Baptism is valid in any Christian Denomination if the materials and form are there. Once Baptised all are part of the Body of Christ and are unified as such.
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Not really. It is true that through Baptism a person becomes a member of the body of Christ. But a non-Catholic “Christian” is either a heretic or a schismatic, and both of them are cut off from body of Christ. Actually, since they maintain the character of Baptism on their soul, theologians tell us that they are still members of the body, but that they are dead members. Anyone who rejects the Catholic Church is rejecting the faith “once delivered”; and since “without faith it is impossible to please God” these people are not in the state of grace, and therefore, not a “living” member of the body of Christ, since they are not a member of the Church.
Further as a member of the human race of which Christ Jesus shared in our humanity, there is no getting away from the fact that we are unified in Him in our very humanity and as such unified with all other human beings
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Our unity to Jesus is not via our human nature, but by way of the state of grace. Are you united to a satanist in Christ? Of course not. It is true that you share a human nature with them, but that does not unit them to Christ: they are united to Christ by the Holy Ghost (state of grace).

God established Christian unity, and it is much higher than the unity of humanity - it is a supernatural unity with God. The Church is the kingdom of God on earth, and it possesses a supernatural unity with God.
 
Dear friend

Not really. It is true that through Baptism a person becomes a member of the body of Christ. But a non-Catholic “Christian” is either a heretic or a schismatic,etc etc etc

No-one can reject what they have truly not known, no-one is schismatic or a heretic unless they knowingly reject. What you speak of is full knowledge (which few indeed have) and reject the Catholic faith. You speak from your perspective of knowledge and relationship with Christ from within His church, you lack knowledge of what it is not to know the Truth in absolute terms. Not that a soul should remain ignorant, but each journeys their own path led by God to Jesus, hopefully ending in union with Him in His Catholic church and each is not always possessing in the same understanding nor depth thereof. As regards Baptism we have to see in this we are united in Christ, once baptised a soul is then on the journey in Christ and as such unity exists though it is not in the Catholic faith, there is a unity. If you believe that all those outside of the Catholic faith have no unity in Christ, you are mistaken. Once baptised a soul receives the Truine God within them and if there is no unity with other Christian faiths in this, then I will eat my hat! There is no room in the heart of Christ for intolerance!

Our unity to Jesus is not via our human nature, but by way of the state of grace. etc

Unity is in Christ in His sharing in our very human nature, all humanity now bears the face of Christ and what you do to the least of these you now do to Christ. We are unified in Christ as humanity. He did not die for those who would only have faith, He died for all of humanity. You do not know the heart of another, only God knows that and as such you cannot write off humanity because of their religious beliefs. You mention satanists, yes they bear the face of Christ, everyone whether they realise it or not are in Him now that He has died for the whole of humanity to restore reconciliation in, by and through Him, however what a person does with their free will in religious choice is their decision, it does not change the fact that they are in Christ whether they recognise it or not, and He wil be their Judge and King, so we are unified with all in Christ and should love all, yes even our enemies whether spiritual or by physical proximity. We are not unified in our humanity but we are by Christ Jesus’ share in our humanity. You may strongly dislike someone’s religious beliefs or even their personality, but you may not stop loving them, if you love them you will talk to them about the Word of God, but you will never make them feel inhuman, nor stupid, nor beat them down because their faith is not the same as yours!!!

God established Christian unity, etc etc

We will be surprised who is in the Kingdom of Heaven and I may indeed not find myself there. Nor may you not be there. Those who will be there will be those who love unconditionally…as God does…whether we sin or not, we are unified in Him in His unending love for us all, for all humanity as all humanity is His creation and all are loved equally. Yes we are to unite our will with His, but His gifts are not equal, what He calls one to He does not call another, He calls one to die for Him, He calls another to nurse the sick, He calls another to serve in His church, He calls another to work of forklift trucks, see we all are called some way and in this we recognise that whatever faith someone holds, they are God’s children and bear the face of Christ, unity is not in what faith you hold, it is in the knowledge that this is not our world nor our church nor our faith nor our possessions, everything and everyoen belongs to God and in this we see our Eternal unity in Him

God Bless you and much love and peace to you and those you love

Teresa
 
Teresa9,

God Bless you too.

You are confusing the objective with the subjective. I am not judging anyone subjectively; however, a Protestant is, objectively, as heretic. If he is “invincibly ignorant” of the truth, that is between himself and God.

Regarding “tolerance”. Actually it is very uncharitable to see our brother in error and tolerate it. Charity is untied to truth, and there is no charity in the toleration of heretical beleifs. The statement I just made is almost word for word taken out of the encycical I gave the link to above above (second Post).

I would be very interested in hearing your opinion of that encyclical. And keep in mind that this is part of the Churches magesterium, which we must accept.
 
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RSiscoe:
Not really. It is true that through Baptism a person becomes a member of the body of Christ. But a non-Catholic “Christian” is either a heretic or a schismatic, and both of them are cut off from body of Christ. Actually, since they maintain the character of Baptism on their soul, theologians tell us that they are still members of the body, but that they are dead members. Anyone who rejects the Catholic Church is rejecting the faith “once delivered”; and since “without faith it is impossible to please God” these people are not in the state of grace, and therefore, not a “living” member of the body of Christ, since they are not a member of the Church.
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This may be helpful. It’s from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

“All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”

“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”

Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.” (CCC 836, 838)

In Christ,
Joanna
 
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Joanna:
This may be helpful. It’s from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

“All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”

“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”

Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.” (CCC 836, 838)

In Christ,
Joanna
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Dear friend

Thank you Joanna this is exactly what I mean

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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Teresa9:
Dear friend

Thank you Joanna this is exactly what I mean

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
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Dear Teresa,

I rather thank you and RSiscoe. Your discussion led me to reread the section “The Church is catholic” and a beautiful paragraph on the Jews.

“Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

" And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus." (CCC 839, 840)

In Christ,
Joanna
 
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Joanna:
This may be helpful. It’s from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

“All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.”

“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”

Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.” (CCC 836, 838)

In Christ,
Joanna
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Joanna,

Thanks for posting that. Thanks also to Teresa for having this discussion. Hopefully we will all benefit from it. This will be my last post on the boards until Christmas. I have decided to do a “fast” of these boards for the remainder of lent. I have last post to make before signing off.

I am one who prefers the older Catechisms to the newer ones. I find that the faith is taught with much more precision in the older Catechisms. My favorite is The Catechism of the Council of Trent, but I also enjoy The Baltimore Catechism.

If you notice in the quotes give above, we see statements such as “an imperfect unity”, or “a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” We are even told that the Orthodox Churches communion with the Catholic Church “is so profound” that is barely lack anything.

But when we are speaking of a supernatural union, there are no grey areas. Everything is very black and white - no middle ground. For example, when it comes to supernatural charity (which is the state of grace) one either has it, or not; they are either in the state of grace or mortal sin. There is no grey area. The same is true for the two other supernatural virtues of faith and hope. Either one has the faith, or they don’t. There is no middle ground.

Since true Christian unity is supernatural unity, there is no grey area. Just like with the state of grace. Either one is united to the Church, or they aren’t. The new Catechism refers to the unity with the “*Orthodox Churches” *calling it “so profound that it lacks little…”. But since it does lacking something, there is actually no supernatural union at all: therefore, no true Christian union. That is why they are unable to receive communion, because to receive Our Divine Lord, there must be in supernatural union with Christ’s Church.

This is explained very clearly in the encyclical “Satis Cognitum”, of Leo XIII, that I posted the link to above. If one reads and understands this encyclical, it will make reading the new Catechism even better, as it will add a certain amount of clairty to what they Catechism teaches. I would suggest reading the Encyclical a few times so that it sinks in. There are also many very good quotes from the Church fathers all throughout it.

Take care and may you all have a fervent Advent and a very merry Christmas.

God Bless.

Robert

PS. Please include me (and my family) in your prayers, as I will certainly include everyone in mine.

PPS If anyone has anything to say, please feel free to e-mail me at RSiscoeKY@aol.com since I will be off the boards till Christmas.
 
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RSiscoe:
Joanna,

Thanks for posting that. Thanks also to Teresa for having this discussion. Hopefully we will all benefit from it. This will be my last post on the boards until Christmas. I have decided to do a “fast” of these boards for the remainder of lent. ]

Advent is suppose to be a little like lent. But next week, we will light the pink candle and be consoled.

Deacon Tony SFO
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