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TrueLight
Guest
Okay, cool.
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TrueLight
Guest
Skeptic, are you saying female servers are forbidden or not forbidden? I wasn’t sure by the post.
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ProVobis
Guest
No, but it doesn’t take a server to respond or “assist.” the latter incidentally meaning that the person attends the Mass.
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JReducation
Guest
We’ve already discussed what is allowed and what is not allowed and how that which is allowed should be done so that it’s not disruptive. This point has been discussed on these threads to death.
I’m only giving a theological response to a point. But I have no interest in a confrontation. Let’s leave it here.
Actually, quite a bit.
- It was the Franciscans who promoted and preserved what is today the Extraordinary Form and we have helped preserve it to this day. If you go this site you’ll see our connection to UE.
St. Francis of Assisi “saved” the old mass - The Franciscans of the Immaculate have volunteered to modify the EF so that it can be celebrated according the Franciscan liturgical calendar and customs. This would allow the Ministers the freedom to make use of the UE. As the 1962 EF missal stands, it can only be used when it does not conflict with the calendar of the order, which is different from the Roman lilturgical calendar. However, it’s a calendar that affects the liturgical life of 1.7 million Franciscan men and women. That’s not a group that the Vatican can ignore.
- We are trying our best to accommodate the faithful who ask for the EF. However, there were questions about Summorum Pontificum. The UE has answered them. One of the questions was:
b. What are the powers of the religious superior?
c. Because a friar is a priest, does that give him special privileges that set him apart from his brothers?
These questions are now answered. It gives the Franciscan family something that it can work with and not violate its tradition or its rule of life and still provide the EF when the superior says that a friar can celebrate it.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Skeptic92
Guest
In the 1962 Missal (the EF) Female servers are forbidden by the Rubrics itself, not just by the Canon Law of the time, I went on to say that female servers in the Ordinary Form is only allowed at the discretion of the entire hierarchy, from Pope to Priest, and can be disallowed at any point in that hierarchy.
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TrueLight
Guest
Thanks.
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FAB
Guest
The discipline of the Extradinary Form of the mass goes far beyond just the preist learning Latin. The liturgy, books, ministers, vestments, servers, altar set up all would required a substanscial investment of time, money and training. Before any group in a parish decide to insist that this form of the mass be done, they should first consider are they willing to personally make those investments. If not, it seems unreasonable to demand such.
The mass, as mentioned, excludes women from any participation. Unless this were to change, it indicates a giant step backwards for the Church.
I believe the notes when it comes to preparation in the siminary of should and can, indicate that the implementation of such studies are linked to the demand for the mass.
From working in a parish and with contacts in others, I just don’t see any ground swell of people saying, were is our Latin mass, we want it to return, actually quite the opposite. This seems to more of an attempt to sooth divisions with the SSPX and other groups by saying that both forms of the mass can go exist within the Church.
The mass, as mentioned, excludes women from any participation. Unless this were to change, it indicates a giant step backwards for the Church.
I believe the notes when it comes to preparation in the siminary of should and can, indicate that the implementation of such studies are linked to the demand for the mass.
From working in a parish and with contacts in others, I just don’t see any ground swell of people saying, were is our Latin mass, we want it to return, actually quite the opposite. This seems to more of an attempt to sooth divisions with the SSPX and other groups by saying that both forms of the mass can go exist within the Church.
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JReducation
Guest
You’re right. To the best of my knowledge, in those diocese where female servers are allowed, the operative term is “allowed”. Pastors were not told that they “had to” allow it. The bishop simply gave permission. Unless the bishop says that it must be allowed, the pastor is free to discontinue the practice. I can’t see a bishop saying that.
As to the term assist, I’m not sure when that started to be used to mean the same as attend. I’ve seen very ancient documents that make a clear distinction between the acolyte, subdeacon and deacon assisting and the congregation attending.
Could that have been another English fluke? Just as we say in English “to pray the Mass” but that phrase is not used in other languages. Other language use “to say the mass” or “to sing the mass” depending on which one it is, or “to celebrate the mass”.
We do have many strange uses of words in English.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Denise1957
Guest
Thank you for your reply. So, I take it that there are no Franciscan communites that are under Ecclesia Dei.We’ve already discussed what is allowed and what is not allowed and how that which is allowed should be done so that it’s not disruptive. This point has been discussed on these threads to death.
I’m only giving a theological response to a point. But I have no interest in a confrontation. Let’s leave it here.
Actually, quite a bit.
a) What constitutes a stable group?
- It was the Franciscans who promoted and preserved what is today the Extraordinary Form and we have helped preserve it to this day. If you go this site you’ll see our connection to UE.
St. Francis of Assisi “saved” the old mass- The Franciscans of the Immaculate have volunteered to modify the EF so that it can be celebrated according the Franciscan liturgical calendar and customs. This would allow the Ministers the freedom to make use of the UE. As the 1962 EF missal stands, it can only be used when it does not conflict with the calendar of the order, which is different from the Roman lilturgical calendar. However, it’s a calendar that affects the liturgical life of 1.7 million Franciscan men and women. That’s not a group that the Vatican can ignore.
- We are trying our best to accommodate the faithful who ask for the EF. However, there were questions about Summorum Pontificum. The UE has answered them. One of the questions was:
b. What are the powers of the religious superior?
c. Because a friar is a priest, does that give him special privileges that set him apart from his brothers?
These questions are now answered. It gives the Franciscan family something that it can work with and not violate its tradition or its rule of life and still provide the EF when the superior says that a friar can celebrate it.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
It’s good that UE can be applied to your community. I take it then, that you will want to regularly assist at the the EF within your community, since it seems very important to you that it was the Franciscans who helped preserve it, which is a wonderful thing. However, the EF, to my knowledge, has not been the norm in most Franciscan communities for some decades
The FSSP, ICK, and GS, for the past few decades, have been on the forefront preserving the EF. They have had to endure hardships, because of it, and yet they do not complain. It is something they gladly do, out of love for our Lord.
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JReducation
Guest
I’m not sure if I totally agree with your last sentend. I believe that groups such as the SSPX brought the issue to the attention of the Holy See. I agree with that. I don’t think that the Holy See issued the indult first and then Summorum Pontificum to appease the SSPX and company. I think that the Holy See truly beleives that this is a legitimate request.
I’ll explain why I say this. In a recent statement, Pope Benedict made it energetically clear that his issue with the SSPX had to do with their break with the Primacy, not with the Tridentine mass. He was asked this question about Summorum Pontificum. His answer was that it had nothing to do with the SSPX.
Fraternally,
Br. Jr, OSF
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Skeptic92
Guest
I would argue the exact opposite, it makes a clear distinction, between the roles of Men and Women in the Church, Altar Servers are taking the place of Clerics, if you ever attend a Mass in a Seminary you’ll see this Altar Servers as you and I know them are not used, but Clerics are (obviously in Choir Dress), and in Abbeys (especially the one I am attached to I can vouch for) Brother-Priests are used unless one is out at another Abbey or a Parish, then a Brother is employed, long before the laity are considered. As Altar Servers take the place of clerics, and are even in Clerical dress (Cassock and Surplice), it appears to be confusing when you have females acting in a purely male (essentially Clerical) role.
From my work with the Youth Service in my Diocese (as a representative as one of the youth, and also links to a Religious Congregation) I can say that in my diocese at least, Teenagers, and young adult are more likely to request the EF and regularly attend the EF, and in fact the “Youth Mass” that WAS incredibly folky feel good, and very loose on the Rubrics, was changed to a very traditional OF Mass (with talks of the Archbishop celebrating a Solemn Pontifical Mass in the EF) with Latin, Gregorian Chant etc, this was not done by me (as it was not my place to change it), but at the request of those attending, even providing Canon Law and quotes from the GIRM, that showed some of the actions of the priest were illicit, and against the Rubrics, and they asked for the Mass to be changed.
Tradition will return to the Church, but I expect it wont be by either the OF or EF, but an amalgamation of the two, which will then become the only form of the Latin Rite.
The English Language is a terrible one, many words can mean many, many different things, with most terms being very ambiguous (it must be a nightmare for translators!) I expect this is because the English Language doesn’t have one root language, it’s a combination of Norse, French, Latin, German, Greek, Hebrew and many other languages, recipe for disaster (N). If I remember the proclamation from His Holiness Blessed John Paul II, the Bishop can not require Priests to allow female Altar Servers, but it is always at each levels discretion, apart from a choice not to implement them, they can be forbidden at any Level, I.E If the Bishops conference of a country chose to not allow female servers in there Jurisdiction, they were forbidden in that country. It’s a complicated matter Canon Law, I think we should leave it to the Canon lawyers!You’re right. To the best of my knowledge, in those diocese where female servers are allowed, the operative term is “allowed”. Pastors were not told that they “had to” allow it. The bishop simply gave permission. Unless the bishop says that it must be allowed, the pastor is free to discontinue the practice. I can’t see a bishop saying that.
As to the term assist, I’m not sure when that started to be used to mean the same as attend. I’ve seen very ancient documents that make a clear distinction between the acolyte, subdeacon and deacon assisting and the congregation attending.
Could that have been another English fluke? Just as we say in English “to pray the Mass” but that phrase is not used in other languages. Other language use “to say the mass” or “to sing the mass” depending on which one it is, or “to celebrate the mass”.
We do have many strange uses of words in English.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
God Bless You Brother
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malphono
Guest
I’m not sure they’d be considered to be “under” the PCED, but the FI (Franciscans of the Immaculate) do, AFAIK, tend to prefer the EF.
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MarkThompson
Guest
This is not really true in my experience. Actually, it is the fact that English has so many words, from so many backgrounds, that makes it capable of extremely precise diction. How many other languages have groups of words that are so close, yet with differentiable shades of meaning, as English has with “mortal,” “fatal,” “lethal,” and “deadly,” or “bawdy,” “ribald,” “blue,” “crude,” and “crass”? The difficulty is not that most of these terms are too ambiguous; in fact they’re so specific that there is humor you might describe as “bawdy but not blue” or “blue without lapsing into crudeness,” and that actually means something identifiable to an English-speaker. Many languages would not be capable of making the same fine distinctions, at least not in a simple phrase without lengthy circumlocution.
This is why you so often read, in people who critique translations of Latin into English, about all the “rich meaning” that gets lost in our “impoverished English.” The truth is that Latin has a lot fewer words than English does, so each word has to have a broader range of signification. That’s why discussions like this one about the meaning of the word fas cannot settle on where it falls on the spectrum from “okay to do” to “a sacred duty.” You simply have to know what was meant.
So the allegedly “lost meaning” with a Latin-to-English translation is often only that overflow which does not fit into the precision of English word choice. I personally have always found English capable of much greater specification than Latin, and my understanding is that people who speak German say the same about that language.
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FAB
Guest
From working with female servers, there is no confusion as to their role and that it is not one of being a cleric. I don’t want to change this to a discussion as to if a female servers should be allowed, that decision has already been made and the answer was yes. The role of women also extends to the role of lectors also to EMHC, since it mihght be assumed that a large enough mass would still make those roles necessary.
It would be a mistake to try to lessen the role women now have in the Church. It was because of women that the early Church grew and many of the congrations of Church houses were headed by women, we know this from Paul’s letters.
You are talking about two different things, a request for the EF or having the OF closely follow the rubics. The example you give is annidotal.
Before considering that somehow teenagers are clamering for the EF, I would have to see some real solid surveys from teens exposed to both forms.
I don’t buy the idea that tradition had ever left the Church. That somehow we are less because every mass isn’t a high mass with choir, incense and chant.
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ProVobis
Guest
I strongly agree. The once-barbaric language contains ambiguous second person, too many homophones, too many vulgar expressions, but is one of the favorites of the Protestants. If anything the Greek and the Latin have actually saved it from being totally barbaric. Ask any lawyer.
Both Pope Paul and Pope JPII banned female servers. It is only through a loophole in the Canon Law that “allows” bishops to use them.
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laszlo
Guest
The completely silent Mass is around since the beginning of the first millennium. After the XIX Ecumenical council only the very small minority of the masses was high Mass: the emphasis is on the action of God, not the people. The frequent high mass is recent development. (In the first millennium there was only one Mass a week except for Feasts)
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ProVobis
Guest
If memory serves me correctly, Pope Pius X used a German expression that can be more closely translated as “sing the Mass.”
That said, “praying the Mass” in English sounds more to the point than saying a lot of prayers during Mass. I wouldn’t use the same expression in Polish, however; they’d laugh at me. It would be more like translating “It’s raining cats and dogs” for them.
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TrueLight
Guest
Thank the Lord for high masses!
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JReducation
Guest
None of the religious orders come under Ecclesia Dei, because religious orders are exempt religious. They answer directly to the Holy See or to the Sacred Congregation, depending on the issue. The religious congregations answer to the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. If you look very carefully, none of the institutes under Ecclesia Dei are orders. Ecclesia Dei has no jurisdiction over the orders, only over the bishops and the institutes that are under them. Religious who work in a diocese or for a diocese, answer to the bishop concerning pastoral matters and disciplines. Whatever Ecclesia Dei asks the bishops to do and is passed along to diocesan staff, will include the religious on that staff.
UE applies to the entire Latin Church, not just the Ecclesia Dei institutes.
Ordinarily, we attend either the conventual mass or mass at a local parish as determined by the local Guardian. It is his job to watch over the spiritual welfare of the fraternity. Therefore, he decides what is best for us. Most Guardians will ask the brothers for (name removed by moderator)ut, although they do not have to do so. The government on this issue is very complex. The rule explicitly says that the friars cannot do anything that is not commanded by Francis or his canonically elected successors. However, it also says that the all superiors, except Francis, must obey the vote of the brothers in a chapter.
To make the EF official mass of any Franciscan fraternity, the chapter has to decide that. The Guardians and Ministers can decide for isolated events, but they cannot make it the ordinary form for the community. Only Francis has that kind of authority.
That’s why it’s being done by obediences. It’s much easier to get some kind of consensus that way than to get 1.7 million Franciscan men and women to agree on this one point, especially if you’re asking them to use the Roman Missal. That has not been our missal. Our missal was the Seraphic Missal and now the Roman-Franciscan Missal, which is the Franciscan usage in the Roman Rite. There is the issue of concordance. The Roman Missal does not coincide with the Franciscan liturgical calendar, it never did, because it never had to do so. Franciscans had the Seraphic Missal for that purpose, as many other orders had their own missals.
If you’re going to ask any religious family to use the EF and if that means giving up their holy days and our solemnities, I doubt that will fly. I can see many people voting against it. If you adjust the EF calendar to coincide with the calendar of the religious family, put in the proper collects, readings and other details necessary then it will get a lot of support.
There are many religious, including Franciscans, who like the ancient form, but as done by the friars or the monks, respectively, not by secular priests. Secular priests do not have the same customs. This was a problem yesterday. We had the feast St. Margaret of Cortona. That’s not in the Roman Missal or on the calendar of the Universal Church. In the OF calendar it was a regular Easter Monday. On our calendar it was a feast. In the Seraphic Missal it would have been a first class feast.
I think that with time, these calendars can be harmonized and will be harmonized. That takes time and skill. It’s not something that you ask an amateur to do. Otherwise, it will be a mess.
All of us do what we do for the love of God, whether it’s celebrate the EF, feed the hungry, run a pregnancy center, annoint the sick, clean a toilet or celebrate the OF. When you do what is necessary to please Jesus and to aleviate his suffering, it is always difficult.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JReducation
Guest
There are a number of languages in which I would not use “pray the mass”. They would look at you as if you had lost your mind.If memory serves me correctly, Pope Pius X used a German expression that can be more closely translated as “sing the Mass.”
That said, “praying the Mass” in English sounds more to the point than saying a lot of prayers during Mass. I wouldn’t use the same expression in Polish, however; they’d laugh at me. It would be more like translating “It’s raining cats and dogs” for them.
I can see it now. * “You say the mass or you sing the mass. Of couse you pray at mass.”* That’s the answer that we would get from most European language speakers.
When I was in the missions in South America, the term in Quichua is to “celebrate”. To say, sing or pray is foreign to their way of thinking. These are things that you do during the celebration of the mass. You speak. You sing. You pray. They too use the term “to attend” not “to assist”, except when they’re speaking in Spanish. Then they turn it around. Then you attend to the mass and you assist to mass (asistir a la misa). But you never assist at mass (assistir en misa), unless you’re in the sanctuary serving.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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