Universae Ecclesiae

[MarkThompson]

I find it interesting that some here believe that criticism is wrong, but they themselves criticize, and sometimes strongly so, those with whom they disagree. They criticize someone for being critical, or what perceive as being critical, even when it isn’t directly critical at all (and they will even stretch the truth somewhat, and feel justified in doing so). As long as a person feels justified in their criticisms of others, it’s alright for them; but they do not afford others this same right. This is not a mature stance at all.

This would be clearer if you just came out and said who you were talking about, Denise, rather than speaking such vague insinuations.

 

[archangel04]

Thank you for the compliment. Patience is a challenge for me. I’ll offer a little aside her that is not germain to the thread, but helps understand where I’m coming from. First, I’m a convert form Judaism to Catholicism. That was many years ago, 1965. It took a lot of patience to answer many questions from Catholics and Jews alike.

Second, I was married. My wife, oldest son and my father were killed in an auto accident. I was left a widower with a 9 yr old daughter and a 4 yr old son with autism. Today they are independent adults. Even my son with autism holds a job, owns a home and does a million things for himself. However, I had to practice being patient with God, life, my kids and me.

Third, I left a career to pursue religious life and went back to school to get a doctorate in theology. That was quite a challenge when you’ve been out of the classroom for a long time. Again, I had to be patient. I had always been in charge, both at work and at home. Once inside religious life I had to ask for permnission to go for a walk, to get toothpaste, to wash my habit, to sleep an extra hour, to go to bed early, to visit a sick relative, to attend my mother’s funeral. All of this teaches you that you’re not entitled to anything. You are nothing. You are just an instrument in God’s hands that he uses as he wishes.

I beleive that this has taught me a valuable lesson in life. Critics and criticism are not the sign of a poor man or a person who is an instrument. The instrument never critiques the artist nor the work. It allows itself to be used, sometimes abused too. A tool is a humble thing. It accepts what it is, a simple tool. Those who have an agenda against either form of the mass are the rebellious tools.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I am very sorry for your loss, I did not know about this, especially that you were once married. Well it seemds God still has plans for you! I am glad you are on here to educated us in what you have learned and your wisdom. Feel good that there is a stubborn 25 year old guy who is learning a lot and hopefully be able to attain humility .

 

[cyejbv]

Everything that you say is very true. One also has to remember that by the time that Vatican II rolls around the number of secular priests in the Latin Church has become the dominant population. There was also the desire to take some of the monastic flavor out of the celebration of the mass and place the focus on three points: Word, Eucharist and Priesthood.

In the end, the 1962 missal is very different from the missal of Pius V. The missal of Pius V is a modification of a form used by the mendicants and the monks, both of whom clebrated conventual masses. They had customs and formation that the secular clergy of the 20th century did not have. Many secular priests felt that their liturgical formation was very monastic. If they wanted to be religious, they would have joined an order. There was an attempt to take the monastery out of the mass. That was not a bad idea. It actually helped the monastic and mendicant orders too, because it separated, once and for all, the religious life from Holy Orders. You could see the difference. After Vatican II, the parish mass was different from the conventual mass.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Would you BrJR or anyone, be willing to recommend something a girl could read as per what you discuss above for clarification and understanding. I am not sure how to quote/ ask a question/ quote ask a question, but specifically understanding the mass differences you mention as they relate to secular priests/religious and liturgical formation: it seems significant in understanding the UE better, but I don’t even have the right questions to ask.

Any suggestions for books encyclicals etc would be greatly appreciated!
Many thanks
Pax!

 

[JReducation]

Would you BrJR or anyone, be willing to recommend something a girl could read as per what you discuss above for clarification and understanding. I am not sure how to quote/ ask a question/ quote ask a question, but specifically understanding the mass differences you mention as they relate to secular priests/religious and liturgical formation: it seems significant in understanding the UE better, but I don’t even have the right questions to ask.

Any suggestions for books encyclicals etc would be greatly appreciated!
Many thanks
Pax!

There are no encylicals on the difference between the way that religious orders and diocesan priests celebrate the mass. These were really customs that developed over the centuries. Canon Law allows you to keep an ancient custom, even if the law changes.

However, you may want to read about the religious orders of men. As you read, you will see many references to how they celebrate both the liturgy of the mass and the liturgy of the hours. You may want to begin by reading about the Benedictine Monks. The Benedictines set the pace for liturgy. Their life centers around liturgy.

If you go to How St. Francis “saved” the Traditional Mass you will find some articles on which another friar and I collaborated on the Franciscan tradition of celebrating mass. Friar Joseph does the history of the mass and I do the history of the space.

You may also want to read about the Carmelite and Dominican Friars and the Carthusian monks. They had their own rite.

I wish I could point to a book that has it all condensced. If anyone knows about it or wants to write it, let me know.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[cyejbv]

If you go to How St. Francis “saved” the Traditional Mass you will find some articles on which another friar and I collaborated on the Franciscan tradition of celebrating mass. Friar Joseph does the history of the mass and I do the history of the space.

Perfect, thank you, thank you thank you!

Br JR
If you are so inclined to post, and there exists a link, to all articles you have done or on which you have collaborated, may I ask Please Do! Your charity and clarity is incredible as you have thus far explained UE.

I do not mean to get off thread topic, (this sentence is always followed by getting off thread topic, isn’t it?) but how you came to convert and to bear the loss of your family-‘wow’ is the best word I have.
Br JR I’m astounded at your (I don’t love this word but) serenity. God’s grace has been scandalous for you? Anyway back on topic: thanks for the information, and finally: I agree with earlier poster’s comments about your patience- which above request about link isn’t intended to exploit, of course!

Pax and MANY thanks again.
God Bless You Br JR

 

[Denise1957]

1. (of Universiae Ecclesiae)
   “In Dioceses without qualified priests, Diocesan Bishops can request assistance from priests of the Institutes erected by the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, either to celebrate the forma extraordinaria or to teach others how to celebrate it.”

I was trying to find a list of all of the institutes erected by Ecclesia Dei that can be contacted by the bishops who are looking for a qualified priest to celebrate or to teach other priests how to celebrate the forma extraordinaria. I can’t find the official website of Ecclesia Dei Commission, but found a support group for Ecclesia Dei, which lists the Institites, for those here interested, though it may not be up-to-date:

ecclesiadei.org/Resources.htm

 

[JReducation]

1. (of Universiae Ecclesiae)
   “In Dioceses without qualified priests, Diocesan Bishops can request assistance from priests of the Institutes erected by the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, either to celebrate the forma extraordinaria or to teach others how to celebrate it.”

I was trying to find a list of all of the institutes erected by Ecclesia Dei that can be contacted by the bishops who are looking for a qualified priest to celebrate or to teach other priests how to celebrate the forma extraordinaria. I can’t find the official website of Ecclesia Dei Commission, but found a support group for Ecclesia Dei, which lists the Institites, for those here interested, though it may not be up-to-date:

ecclesiadei.org/Resources.htm

I don’t believe that Ecclesia Dei has its own site, because they are no longer an indepedent office. They are a department under the Sacred Congregation for the Faith.

The list looks pretty good. The three ED institutes in the USA are FSSP, Christ the King and St. John Cantius.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Denise1957]

I don’t believe that Ecclesia Dei has its own site, because they are no longer an indepedent office. They are a department under the Sacred Congregation for the Faith.

The list looks pretty good. The three ED institutes in the USA are FSSP, Christ the King and St. John Cantius.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks.

Maybe it’s already been posted here, but I found the website for the Canons Regular of St. John Cantius. The site looks to be well set-up for those priests who may want information on how to learn to celebrate the TLM (forma extraordinaria):

sanctamissa.org/en/

 

[pnewton]

However, my fear would be that the use of words such as “should” or “are asked to” will not be strong enough encouragement to seminary authorities to provide for the teaching of the E.F.

I think Pro Vobis addresses this concern well.

I wouldn’t worry about the strength of the words from one document. (Ecclesia Dei was a decree and where did that go?) Translations tend to dilute meanings and strength. As long as the idea is reinforced, that itself makes it stronger.

There is no doubt as to the will and mind of the Holy Father on preservation and promulgation of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. The language allows some resistance, but I am optimistic and believe the best of most of our clergy. Maybe even most priests will not be interested in this, but I am sure that the bishops will, as a rule, support those who do seek this out.

I likewise think that most will accept the Holy Father’s lead in what the forms of the Mass are to be called and the use of the word “Novus Ordo” will fade. Sure, on both sides there will be those that resist this, but time will reduce this resistance.

 

[JReducation]

I think Pro Vobis addresses this concern well.
There is no doubt as to the will and mind of the Holy Father on preservation and promulgation of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. The language allows some resistance, but I am optimistic and believe the best of most of our clergy. Maybe even most priests will not be interested in this, but I am sure that the bishops will, as a rule, support those who do seek this out.

I likewise think that most will accept the Holy Father’s lead in what the forms of the Mass are to be called and the use of the word “Novus Ordo” will fade. Sure, on both sides there will be those that resist this, but time will reduce this resistance.

There are going to be some practical considerations that will be addressed. Priests and brothers are required to have graduate degrees in theology. To get degrees, you must attend a graduate school that is accredited. Call it a seminary, university, school of theology or Vatican Romper Room. The name is irrelevant.

Accreditation procedures are different from one country to the next. In fact, they are the easiest in the USA, because the state doesn’t have to accredit an institution. The most important accreditation to most schools is from a regional accrediting body of institutions. I remember when I was in South America, in Ecuador, the State has to accredit you. Every course and course curriculum has to meet the approval of the Ministry of Education’s Department of Tertiary Education. It’s quite a challenge to get a theology degree accredited.

To insert these courses into the degree program, they will have to be written by curriculum designers and submitted to committees and senates for approval. Then they are to be submitted to the accrediting agency. If you’re going to offer these courses either as electives or part of the core curriculum, they have to carry credit weight and a point value or they add nothing to the degree and only extend the number of years that a man spends in graduate school.

As a former dean, my suggestion would be that they be presented as electives. Why? Because the Church is not saying that everyone who goes through theology has to take these courses. She not even saying that everyone who is going to be a priest must take these courses. She’ s saying that they must be available. This is fair. They should be available. They have to be well organized and taught by people who understand what they’re teaching. They should be more than a weekend workshop. At the same time, to make them part of the core curriculum would be nonsensical. There are many men in theology who are not going to be priests. They are getting the four-year degree because it’s required by their religious community. They may want to take these courses or they may want to take other theology courses that they will use in their ministry.

I don’t think that the bishops and the religious superiors are going to refuse to do this. I do think that the deans and presidents of the schools are going to be ruffled, because this is a lot of work. But . . . it’s not the first time that they are ruffled. Those of us who have been in the field of higher education are always having fly balls thrown at us and if you’re good at what you do, you catch the ball and run with it. If it upsets you to the point of paralyzing you, it’s time to retire. I did. I reached a point when I had enough of educational leadership. :sad_yes:

I still love teaching though.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[malphono]

There are going to be some practical considerations that will be addressed. Priests and brothers are required to have graduate degrees in theology. To get degrees, you must attend a graduate school that is accredited. Call it a seminary, university, school of theology or Vatican Romper Room. The name is irrelevant.

Accreditation procedures are different from one country to the next. In fact, they are the easiest in the USA, because the state doesn’t have to accredit an institution. …

To insert these courses into the degree program, they will have to be written by curriculum designers and submitted to committees and senates for approval. Then they are to be submitted to the accrediting agency. If you’re going to offer these courses either as electives or part of the core curriculum, they have to carry credit weight and a point value or they add nothing to the degree and only extend the number of years that a man spends in graduate school. …

It seems to me this is unnecessarily complicated and presents unneeded hurdles. This same issue came up a week or so ago in the other (now closed) [thread=560975]thread[/thread] on this same topic. Rather than repeat myself here, I’ll simply link to the [post=7862282]post[/post] there.

 

[laszlo]

The three ED institutes in the USA are FSSP, Christ the King and St. John Cantius.

What is your source that the St John Cantius fathers belong to the Ecclesia Dei?

I attend their masses since three years, and never heard about it. Neither their webpage mentions it

canons-regular.org/go/about/

They are a Canons regulars established in the Arcdiocese of Chicago. Last year they had some negotiations in Rome, but I know nothing about the result.

 

[archangel04]

What is your source that the St John Cantius fathers belong to the Ecclesia Dei?

I attend their masses since three years, and never heard about it. Neither their webpage mentions it

canons-regular.org/go/about/

They are a Canons regulars established in the Arcdiocese of Chicago. Last year they had some negotiations in Rome, but I know nothing about the result.

Do you know what they were negoticating? I’ve been to rosary prayer at their Church in Chicago. One of their older priest I think was trying to recruit me after Rosary lol

 

[Brendan]

To insert these courses into the degree program, …

That is the crux of the matter. There is no Vatican requirement that the requisite coursework in Latin be part of any degree program.

Having sucessfully completed an M.Div program does not obligate a bishop to one someone.

The bishop may legiitmately require that any person presenting themselves for ordination also have sufficent knowledge of Latin to comply with the Canonical requirements.

That would, of course, be outside any degree program that a government or other body would define.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

That is the crux of the matter. There is no Vatican requirement that the requisite coursework in Latin be part of any degree program.

Having sucessfully completed an M.Div program does not obligate a bishop to one someone.

The bishop may legiitmately require that any person presenting themselves for ordination also have sufficent knowledge of Latin to comply with the Canonical requirements.

That would, of course, be outside any degree program that a government or other body would define.

Two things.

First, the bishop picks the seminary and program that his candidate go to. Seimarians are not free agents. You can not be a seminarian without sponsorship of a diocese or religious institute. Those who attend seminaries for the M.Div. that are not so sponsored are not seminarians.

Second, a bishop has no say in who gets ordained for religious institutes. The superior asks the bishop to do the ordination but the superior is that ordiands ordinary, not the bishop. The bishop gets two choices when approached by a superior, he can say yes he will do the ordination or no he will not. He does not get to see the transcripts of the ordinand. If he says no, the superior will approach another bishop, until he finds one that will say yes.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I think its a great idea to offer these things as electives but I see issues that can arise if done this way.

The issue is what if not enough students sign up for them? Most schools have a minimum seat count, if not enough students register for a class the class is canceled.

I had this happen with a required class.

 

[Denise1957]

What is your source that the St John Cantius fathers belong to the Ecclesia Dei?

I attend their masses since three years, and never heard about it. Neither their webpage mentions it

canons-regular.org/go/about/

They are a Canons regulars established in the Arcdiocese of Chicago. Last year they had some negotiations in Rome, but I know nothing about the result.

A support group for Ecclesia Dei lists them on thie website as belonging to Ecclesia Dei. It’s not absolute proof, though. I’m fairly certain that the Canons Regular are in full communion with Rome. I saw one of their priests interviewed, I think it was on EWTN. They concelebrate, I believe. Both the OF and the EF.

Support group for Ecclesia Dei:

ecclesiadei.org/Resources.htm

 

[At_Trent]

This Bishop can read

Switzerland [May 16, Kreuz] Bishop Vitus Huonder met with about 60 priests at the Benedictine Cloister of Einsiedeln. The Vienese Psychiatrist and Opus Dei Numerary, Raphael Bonelli gave a talk about celibacy. In his preaching, Msgr Huonder spoke about the Instruction ‘Universae Ecclesiae’. The Bishop encouraged the priests to follow the Instruction. He stressed especially the right of the Traditionalists for the Old Mass. Every Bishop has been bound by the Pope, to support the desire for the Old Mass – Msgr Huonder said.
eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2011/05/immemorial-mass-is-duty-swiss-bishop.html

 

[Denise1957]

A support group for Ecclesia Dei lists them on thie website as belonging to Ecclesia Dei. It’s not absolute proof, though. I’m fairly certain that the Canons Regular are in full communion with Rome. I saw one of their priests interviewed, I think it was on EWTN. They concelebrate, I believe. Both the OF and the EF.

Support group for Ecclesia Dei:

ecclesiadei.org/Resources.htm

Actually, on looking at the website again, it doesn’t actually say that the groups listed are under Ecclesia Dei, but lists the groups as ‘addresses,useful resources’; so maybe they are not under Ecclesia Dei after all. It’s difficult to tell, exactly. Sorry about the confusion.

 

[malphono]

That is the crux of the matter. There is no Vatican requirement that the requisite coursework in Latin be part of any degree program.

Having sucessfully completed an M.Div program does not obligate a bishop to one someone.

The bishop may legiitmately require that any person presenting themselves for ordination also have sufficent knowledge of Latin to comply with the Canonical requirements.

That would, of course, be outside any degree program that a government or other body would define.

Yes, and that pretty much goes along to the observation I made and [thread=560975]linked to[/thread] in my earlier [post=7889638]post[/post]. Interestingly enough, my original comment concerned religious more than diocesan candidates, but of course it can apply to either.