Universae Ecclesiae

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(I submitted this question to an apologist already [haven’t gotten an answer yet], but I just wanted to see how the rest of CAF would respond.)

How does Universae Ecclesiae affect seminaries operated by religious orders? If their seminarians want to learn the rubrics of the extraordinary form, would they be allowed to under this stipulation in the instruction:

“Ordinaries are asked to offer their clergy the possibility of acquiring adequate preparation for celebrations in the forma extraordinaria. This applies also to Seminaries, where future priests should be given proper formation, including study of Latin and, where pastoral needs suggest it, the opportunity to learn the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite.”
 
Not only are they allowed to learn the traditional Mass, the seminary should help them out by making them aware of resources available for their education if they seminary does not offer the necessary courses itself.
 
It’s an interesting question and there is no universal answer. Allow me to explain. All men studying to be priests should be allowed to learn the forma extraordinaria. That much is clear.

Next, we must understand that not all male religious attend seminaries. Most of us are formed in theologates for religious only or at Pontifical universities. We have to take whatever courses are available at those schools to meet their graduation requirements. If they offer a course on the EF, then it works. If they don’t offer it, then you have to find a place that does so. The superior has to allow you to attend within reason.

This means that if the course is offered within your province your superior can allow you to attend. Normally, we do not allow religious to leave their provinces. There are times, when it is allowed, for such things as study. This is where the second part of that statement would help. If it is for a pastoral good, then the superior can legitimately allow a religious to go outside of the province to study the EF.

Now comes the glitch. Every priest can celebrate the EF. However, those priests who are religious CANNOT celebrate the EF for the public without the permission of their superior. The superior cannot grant the permission unless he’s allowed to do so by the laws that govern the community. You have the right to learn it, if it’s available in your area or if there is a good reason to leave your area to study it… You’re allowed to cebrate it alone.

If your community does not allow its priests to celebrate the EF for the public, then the pastoral need does not apply to you. The chances that you will be clebrating the EF for the public are non existent until such time as the rules and laws of your community change or the major superior grants the permission.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thanks for the response Br. Jr.

Here’s some more information. I will be attending the Old College Undergraduate Seminary program in August at the University of Notre Dame with the Congregation of Holy Cross. I’ve already spoken with the Director of Vocations about my interest in the extraordinary form. I asked him if there was a possibility I could be learning it at Moreau Seminary (the major seminary of C.S.C.) Though I don’t remember his exact wording, the connotation of what he said left me hopeful. He also said that there were still two C.S.C. priests on ND’s campus that celebrated TLM but that an Old Collegian shouldn’t necessarily be worrying about the extraordinary form until later.

So I’m really hoping that I’d be able to learn both forms of the Mass once (or if I am so blessed) as to be ordained a priest.
 
Thanks for the response Br. Jr.

Here’s some more information. I will be attending the Old College Undergraduate Seminary program in August at the University of Notre Dame with the Congregation of Holy Cross. I’ve already spoken with the Director of Vocations about my interest in the extraordinary form. I asked him if there was a possibility I could be learning it at Moreau Seminary (the major seminary of C.S.C.) Though I don’t remember his exact wording, the connotation of what he said left me hopeful. He also said that there were still two C.S.C. priests on ND’s campus that celebrated TLM but that an Old Collegian shouldn’t necessarily be worrying about the extraordinary form until later.

So I’m really hoping that I’d be able to learn both forms of the Mass once (or if I am so blessed) as to be ordained a priest.
Just focus on becoming a good Brother of the Holy Cross. Remember, Fr. Jacques Dujarie founded the Brothers of the Holy Cross to satisfy the hunger that people had for education in science and faith. To do this, one must first fill oneself with knowledge of science and faith. It was later that Blessed Basil Anthony Moreau added the auxiliary priests to the congregation. The priesthood was not essential to the life of the congregation.

What was and continues to be essential to the Missioin of the Holy Cross is trust in Divine Providence, love of one’s brothers and the Church, fidelity to the vision and mission of the early brothers and Blessed Basil and Fr. Jacques.

If you can live up to the ideals and way of life of these great and holy men who were the first Brothers of the Holy Cross, you can then begin to think about the Extraordinary Form of the mass. The EF will not make you a good and holy brother. Only the example and guidance of the early brothers can help you learn how to be a good son of the Holy Cross. The EF belongs to the universal Church. However, before you can think that big, you must think small. Look at St. Andre Besset, pray to him and ask him to make you more like him, to be better able to understand your mission as a Holy Cross Brother.

And if it’s God’s will that you become an auxiliary priest in the congregation, God will speak through the Major Superior and he will call you to Holy Orders. At that time, then you can think big dreams about this form or that form, as long as you do not forget the mission that God gave to the congregation, to teach science and faith to those who hunger for both. It is a wonderful mission and a wonderful congregation. I feel a holy envy towards you for being called to it. Only few select souls are called to live the life and mission of the Congregation of the Holy Cross.

I will thank God for calling me to be part of the most insignificant religious family in the Church and ask God and St. Francis to help me earn some graces to offer up for you.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Brother JR,

may be you can answer me two questions:

1./ What can be the reason for a superior general not to allow the traditional form of the Mass? I attended recently a conventual Mass at Marytown Libertyville IL in the prpetual adoration shrine. I was beautiful, but very similar to the 1962 Mass, except the (I suppose occasinal) concelebration

2./ Unless for contemplative orders (who do not met people any way) what can be the reason for a Superior the deny the graces of the ordination from their members, and from those people whom the religious serve in their life? You mentioned earlier that the bishops ‘suck’ (my word) the priests to the diocesan work. Why not resist this, instead of rejecting the power at all?
 
This means that if the course is offered within your province your superior can allow you to attend. Normally, we do not allow religious to leave their provinces. There are times, when it is allowed, for such things as study. This is where the second part of that statement would help. If it is for a pastoral good, then the superior can legitimately allow a religious to go outside of the province to study the EF.

Now comes the glitch. Every priest can celebrate the EF. However, those priests who are religious CANNOT celebrate the EF for the public without the permission of their superior. The superior cannot grant the permission unless he’s allowed to do so by the laws that govern the community. You have the right to learn it, if it’s available in your area or if there is a good reason to leave your area to study it… You’re allowed to cebrate it alone.
I think once he has learned the EF (or still learning it) it would behoove a priest to celebrate it often just to keep sharp. In a way it’s like playing the piano or organ. You put it aside, you slowly forget how to play and after a few years you don’t want to anymore. That’s probably one of the reasons many older priest don’t want to say the EF. And it works the same for those who study Latin in schools. Those who were told in the 60’s and 70’s that they was going to be no more future in Latin choose other fields of study if at all. Then 40 years later, many now wish they they hadn’t listened to those pundits and hadn’t stopped their studies in the Latin and the EF.
 
Thanks, Br. Jr. Your words mean a lot.

I’ll take your advice from now on and try to be a good brother before thinking of the priesthood. St. Andre Bessette, C.S.C., is a great role model; I try to ask him daily to impart on me some of his humbleness.

I actually truly love the Congregation of Holy Cross from reading its constitutions. Hopefully, I’ll do Blessed Basil Moreau some justice when I go to Notre Dame in August for the OC orientation.
 
Brother JR,

may be you can answer me two questions:

1./ What can be the reason for a superior general not to allow the traditional form of the Mass? I attended recently a conventual Mass at Marytown Libertyville IL in the prpetual adoration shrine. I was beautiful, but very similar to the 1962 Mass, except the (I suppose occasinal) concelebration
In some communities, the superior does not have the authority to grant this permission. It must be approved by a General Chapter of the community. Superiors can only approve and enforce what is allowed to them by those whom they govern or by the founder. If a community explicitly has it in its statutes that it will celebrate the OF for whatever reason, the superior cannot authorize the EF. He has to wait for a General Chapter to change the statutes. Changes in statutes only happen with the permission of the Holy Father. The delegates father, discuss and vote. Their decisions are submitted to the Holy See for approval.
2./ Unless for contemplative orders (who do not met people any way) what can be the reason for a Superior the deny the graces of the ordination from their members, and from those people whom the religious serve in their life?
Religious communities are raised up by the Holy Spirit to meet a need in the Church. That need may not be parrochial or even sacramental. There are many founders that would not allow their priests to celebrate mass on a regular basis, because the community did not need it. For example, in the rule of St. Francis it says that if there are more than one priest in the house, only one may celebrate mass. The others must attend mass with the rest of the community.

There were two reasons for this. First, in those days there was no concelebration. If a brother was a priest and wanted to celebrate mass, he would have to do so alone. That was unacceptable and still is, in the Franciscan family. Second, fraternity takes priority over every other ministry. Those brothers who are priests will concebrate, if they are in a religious house. If they are assigned to a parish, they will take turns celebrating mass for the faithful. Also, if they have promised a mass intention, they must fulfill it. This was not the only founder who had such strict rules. So do the Carmelites, Benedictines, Dominicans, Jesuits and several other orders.

These founders and their successors did not deny the people the grace of the mass and they do not do so today. They remain faithful to their founders and to their constitutions. The Church teaches us that both forms of the mass are equally valid, equally holy and equally efficacious in grace. There is no more grace in one than there is in the other. To make such a comparsion it’s like comparing the different rites.

The superiors have several obligations:
  1. To be faithful to their founders.
  2. To obey the statutes that govern their communities.
  3. To preserve unity inside their communities.
  4. To ensure that their communities serve the Church according to the original charism, not according to the requirements of the laity.
  5. To serve the faithful where ever they commit to an apostolate, be it a parish, school, shelter, or other.
To do number 5, they must first comply with numbers 1 - 4. If the superior fails in numbers 1 - 4, his community fails, because what it provides for the faithful may make the faithful happy, but will do no good for the religious. His first duty is to the religious. Every superior has a moral duty to protect his community to ensure that it’s faithful to its charism and that it remains alive. If he begins to push things that divide the community, he is leading it to its death.

What many superiors do is to allow the celebration of the EF on a case by case basis. If it’s OK with the religious in the house, then the superior will grant the one religious the permission to celebrate it for the public. If the religious in the house are not comfortable with it, then the superior has a moral duty to protect them first. In this case, he has a valid reason to deny the request, because it’s not good for the religious in that house. He’s not denying the faithful the benefit of the mass, just not the EF.

Other superiors compromise. They allow the EF on certain occasions. As I said, the superior can only allow what the rule and constitutions of his community allow him to authorize. He cannot go against those rules. Superiors are elected to enforce the rule, constitutions, Church law and to protect and promote the charism of the community.
You mentioned earlier that the bishops ‘suck’ (my word) the priests to the diocesan work. Why not resist this, instead of rejecting the power at all?
I don’t understand the question.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thanks, Br. Jr. Your words mean a lot.

I’ll take your advice from now on and try to be a good brother before thinking of the priesthood. St. Andre Bessette, C.S.C., is a great role model; I try to ask him daily to impart on me some of his humbleness.

I actually truly love the Congregation of Holy Cross from reading its constitutions. Hopefully, I’ll do Blessed Basil Moreau some justice when I go to Notre Dame in August for the OC orientation.
Don’t let the naysayers tell you differently. The Brothers and Fathers of the Holy Cross have done great work for the Church. They are needed, especially in the fields of education and catechesis, which is their special charism. Bl. Basil introduced the priests into the congregation to meet the sacramental needs of the brothers and those poor communities that did not have priests. It was always his intention to preserve the original vision of the congregation, education and catechesis.

Given that we have millions of poor immigrants in the USA and these folks have no access to good education and have very poor catechesis, the Holy Cross Brothers are needed more than ever before.

We (Franciscans) are giving up many parishes, schools, hospitals and other works among the Anglo middle class to go where the immigrants are, but the most that we can do is feed them, house them and live among them as poor as they are. It is congregations like the Holy Cross who will rescue these people from spiritual and material misery, providing them with good education and catechesis.

Franciscans, Missionaries of Charity, Missionaries of the Poor and Daughters of Charity will give them a fish to eat. The Holy Cross, Jesuits, Christian Brothers, and Salesians will teach them to fish.

We can preach the Gospel by living it. The Holy Cross is called to teach it. This is the beauty of the religious life in the Church. Each charism is part of a big tapestry that reveals God’s love and plan for humanity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thanks, Br. Jr. Your words mean a lot.

I’ll take your advice from now on and try to be a good brother before thinking of the priesthood. St. Andre Bessette, C.S.C., is a great role model; I try to ask him daily to impart on me some of his humbleness.

I actually truly love the Congregation of Holy Cross from reading its constitutions. Hopefully, I’ll do Blessed Basil Moreau some justice when I go to Notre Dame in August for the OC orientation.
Enjoy you time there. I did my MA in theology at ND. One of my favorite spots for prayer was a bench not far from the Old College overlooking St. Mary’s Lake. My next favorite spot, although it is not a very isolated place, was the statue of the the woman at the well. Oh, of course there was also the grotto, and the basilica (especially Our Lady’s chapel in the early morning), and while walking the loops around both lakes. There were also the dorm chapels. The chapel in Malloy Hall (the theology building) is really nice. I love Moreau seminary chapel or the benches on St. Joe’s Lake by the seminary (where they filmed Rudy). Heck, there are just too many really great places to pray at Notre Dame.
 
Franciscans, Missionaries of Charity, Missionaries of the Poor and Daughters of Charity will give them a fish to eat. The Holy Cross, Jesuits, Christian Brothers, and Salesians will teach them to fish.Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
And the Carmalites, Benedictines, and Dominicans fit into this how…?

🙂

(You seriously need to work on a book, Brother).
 
The superiors have several obligations:
Is not the majority of the religious orders established before Vatican II, and thus independent from the forms of the Mass?

Also for the priesthood of the majority of the members. Wasn’t that the rule before Vatican II? What changed later.

It seems to me that you claim the power of recent man made changeable decisions over orders hundreds of years old. Why cant a decision of the seventies or eighties change as easily as it was made on that time?
 
And the Carmalites, Benedictines, and Dominicans fit into this how…?
Ahhhh, the beauty of the Church. Christ has called the Carmelites and Benedictines to a life of prayer. They nurture the spirit of the Church. Without the contemplative, the Church has no backbone.

He called the Dominicans into existence to preach and to care for souls. They are to be itinerant preachers who bring the Gosple to where ever its needed. They are also to form the rest of us.
(You seriously need to work on a book, Brother).
I have a manuscript written. Someday, I may publish it.
Is not the majority of the religious orders established before Vatican II, and thus independent from the forms of the Mass?
The last religious order to be founded was the Society of Jesus. Those orders that had their own rites were allowed to keep them, by the Council of Trent. Those who did not have their own rites had to adopt what was once called the Francisan’s mass, which is what we know as the Tridentine Mass, because the Council of Trent took it and polished it up. Then Pope Pius V finished the work a few years later.

However, there were some customs that the older orders had, including the Franciscans. Trent allowed them to keep those customs. For example, Franciscans did not have communion rails, kneelers, the altar was separate from the wall (unless the church had been built that way prior to their arrival). They had tabernacles on the main sanctuary, which was not the custom of the Church. They stood for the Eucharistic prayer and for Holy Communion, kneeling only for the consecration and genuflecting before receiving holy communion. They tried to blur the lines between the priest and the non-ordained friars in the community by not allowing priests to celebrate daily mass. If there was more than one priest in the house, the superior would appoint one of them to celebrate mass and everyone else attended. They were not allowed to use Gregorian Chant until Vatican II. They were not allowed to chant the LOTH. These customs were kept. This is what were referred to as usages.

After Vatican II, everyone started to celebrate the mass according to the missal of Paul VI. The difference was in the readings and prayers. Each religious order had its own calendar. The readings and prayers do not match those of the universal Church. Just last week, we Franciscans celebrated the Solemnity of St. Lawrence of Brindisi instead of Corpus Christi. We moved Corpus Christi to Sunday. This way, we can celebrate both our holy days and those of the universal Church. Sometimes it’s the other way around. A holy day of the universal Church cannot be moved, so we move our own.
Also for the priesthood of the majority of the members. Wasn’t that the rule before Vatican II? What changed later.
Not every religious order was founded as an order of priests. Many were founded as brotherhoods and priests are welcome to join them. Benedictines and Franciscans come to mind, but there are others. Priests are not allowed to control those orders. They are one vote along with their brothers. If that’s what you’re asking.

An order like the Dominicans and Jesuits, those are orders of priests. They have what they call lay brothers. These are religious, just as Dominican or Jesuit as the fathers, but their ministry is different. They do whatever is necessary to support the work of the fathers.

Among Benedictines and Franciscans, the ordained and non ordained are all brothers and they all do the same thing. The only time that you seee a difference is in the celebration of the sacraments and anything that is strictly related with Holy Orders, such as granting faculties. Only a priest can grant faculties. There is always either a superior or a vicar who is a priest. Both cannot be non-ordained brothers. But their ministry and way of life is identical.
It seems to me that you claim the power of recent man made changeable decisions over orders hundreds of years old. Why cant a decision of the seventies or eighties change as easily as it was made on that time?
Decisions can only be changed if they were mean to be provisional. Other than that, they can only be changed by the supreme Law Giver. That is alwasy the Holy Father. No one else can change these decisions and no one else has the right to demand that they change. Church law is very clear that there is no appeal above the pope.

As far as the orders are concerned, the popes do not touch the orders. They make changes to societies of apostolic life, to religious congregations, secular institutes and confraterntiies, but not to orders.

Pope have not touched orders ever in the history of the Church. It is the belief of the Church tha the founders of the orders were inspired and the rules that the founders wrote are really commentaries on how to live the Gospel. There are only five rules. Every order has to follow one of those rules, except for the Jesuits. They are not bound to follow any rules. This was an innovation that St. Ignatius introduced into the Church and the Holy See approved it.
  1. Basilian
  2. Benedictines
  3. Augustinian
  4. Franciscan
  5. Carmelite
Congregations can choose to follow any of these rules or none at all. They can create statutes that they change as time passes. Those would be like what you say. They can change with the passing of time, the needs of the community and the needs of the Church.

Orders may not change their rules. They can write constitutions that address points that are not in the rules. Whatever is in the rule is untouchable.

As far as anything else in the Church, the pope can change it at his discretion or he can authorize anyone else to change it.

I’m not sure if that answers your question.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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