Universal Health Care

[apromisemade]

cynic;

They didn’t have that money in hand to begin with, the gov with held it. But if you mean in general, then get a different job, learn new skills, start a business, etc. Immigrants come here all the time and flourish. There IS opportunity here, but it is up to the individual to decide whether to find the opportunity or not. If they do not, then that is their problem. This is not the 1930’s. Granted, times are tough now, but they weren’t for the last 25 years.

For example, my fiance and I are both out of work. So, we have decided to open a pizzaria! We aren’t begging for money from the Gov, we are going to make our own way. This time last year, neither one of us thought we would be where we are today. But, we are, and we are going to make our own future. We see an opportunity. We aren’t at the welfare office. If this pays off for us, why should I have to pay my employees $10.00 with benefits? Why should I have to pay more in taxes? Why? Because we worked harder and took a chance??? I don’t think so.

Okay.

Name me a job or vocation that would allow one the income and means to afford a liver transplant that would cost, oh, I don’t know, $50,000+ dollars (and that’s a really low estimate). And the clock is ticking, you need a transplant soon or you will die.

Quite frankly I find your suggestion of “get a better job” for people who can’t afford health care to be extremely naive.

I can see it now…

“I’m a single mother working as a house keeper and can barely afford daycare for my kids. I just might get in a car crash someday and need months of rehabilitative treatment, but it would take half my life to save up the money I might need for just that. I can’t do it with the job I have now. I know! I’ll go to college! All I’ve gotta do is take out a ton of loans, go bankrupt a few times (as buisness owners often do) to get a tanning salon going, and next thing you know I’ll be making more money than Donald Trump!”

Get real.

Oh, and by the way, paying an employee ten dollars and hour is not really making that big of a sacrafice. Student employees get paid that much doing work study at my school.

 

[cnctony]

An interesting forum. Apparently no one here understands the constitution and what our Federal government is supposed to provide for the “United States of America”

The Constitution of the United States of America
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html#preamble

No where does it say that we the American People should provide or it is a right to have health care. I understand that many may think because we are a wealthy nation that we can afford to pay for everyones health care. Sure we can pay for this and we can pay for that and we can pay for everything! If you lived you life this way you would be living in the street and begging for food.

Are you people MAD.

Our Federal Government has a duty as described by the Constition. Our officials pledge "“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office (of President) (Senator) (Congressman) of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

Our President constantly defiles this oath and does what he thinks is cool.

The Story of the Creation of the Nation’s First Hospital
uphs.upenn.edu/paharc/features/creation.html
Pennsylvania Hospital was founded in 1751 by Dr. Thomas Bond and Benjamin Franklin “to care for the sick-poor and insane who were wandering the streets of Philadelphia.” At the time, Philadelphia was the fastest growing city in the 13 colonies. In 1730, the population numbered 11,500 and had grown to 15,000 by 1750 (the city continued to grow and by 1776, its 40,000 residents made Philadelphia the second largest English-speaking city in the British Empire).

This Hospital was not paid for by the federal Government nor was it financed by the federal government.

YOU ARE RIGHT!!! WE ARE A PROSPEROIUS NATION AND WE SHOULD TAKE CARE OF OUR POOR AND SICK! HOWEVER THAT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!!!

IF YOU FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT THIS THEN START AN ORGANIZATION AND COLLECT FUNDS AND PAY FOR THE HEALTH CARE OF YOUR NEIHBORS.

 

[apromisemade]

An interesting forum. Apparently no one here understands the constitution and what our Federal government is supposed to provide for the “United States of America”

The Constitution of the United States of America
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html#preamble

No where does it say that we the American People should provide or it is a right to have health care. I understand that many may think because we are a wealthy nation that we can afford to pay for everyones health care. Sure we can pay for this and we can pay for that and we can pay for everything! If you lived you life this way you would be living in the street and begging for food.

Are you people MAD.

Our Federal Government has a duty as described by the Constition. Our officials pledge "“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office (of President) (Senator) (Congressman) of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

Our President constantly defiles this oath and does what he thinks is cool.

The Story of the Creation of the Nation’s First Hospital
uphs.upenn.edu/paharc/features/creation.html
Pennsylvania Hospital was founded in 1751 by Dr. Thomas Bond and Benjamin Franklin “to care for the sick-poor and insane who were wandering the streets of Philadelphia.” At the time, Philadelphia was the fastest growing city in the 13 colonies. In 1730, the population numbered 11,500 and had grown to 15,000 by 1750 (the city continued to grow and by 1776, its 40,000 residents made Philadelphia the second largest English-speaking city in the British Empire).

This Hospital was not paid for by the federal Government nor was it financed by the federal government.

YOU ARE RIGHT!!! WE ARE A PROSPEROIUS NATION AND WE SHOULD TAKE CARE OF OUR POOR AND SICK! HOWEVER THAT IS NOT THE JOB OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!!!

IF YOU FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT THIS THEN START AN ORGANIZATION AND COLLECT FUNDS AND PAY FOR THE HEALTH CARE OF YOUR NEIHBORS.

But the Constitution does say we have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapieness (well that’s actually the Declaration of Independence, but still).

People* die* from not being able to afford health care, in this country.

Babies have died from high fevers because their mothers couldn’t afford to take them to the hospital or their health insurance wouldn’t cover them, even in emergency situations.

 

[Toughguy]

apromisemade;

Name me a job or vocation that would allow one the income and means to afford a liver transplant that would cost, oh, I don’t know, $50,000+ dollars (and that’s a really low estimate). And the clock is ticking, you need a transplant soon or you will die.

One job? $50,000? Ummm a school teacher. Car salesman, Public works employee, Carpenter, garbageman, Secretary, Accountant and many more.

Quite frankly I find your suggestion of “get a better job” for people who can’t afford health care to be extremely naive.

Yeah? How come? I’ve been in that position(and am now), I did it. My dad did it. My girlfriend did it(and had open heart surgery with no healthcare, by the way), my aunt did it, my cousin did it, my neighbors did it, my boss did it, my friends did it, Obama did it, the guy fixing the potholes did it, the owner of the local chinese resturant did it, MEXICANS who crossed the border did it! And by the way, I think you mean can’t afford healthcare insurance. The law already say’s that hospitals cannot NOT treat you, even if you have no insurance.

I can see it now…

“I’m a single mother working as a house keeper and can barely afford daycare for my kids. I just might get in a car crash someday and need months of rehabilitative treatment, but it would take half my life to save up the money I might need for just that. I can’t do it with the job I have now. I know! I’ll go to college! All I’ve gotta do is take out a ton of loans, go bankrupt a few times (as buisness owners often do) to get a tanning salon going, and next thing you know I’ll be making more money than Donald Trump!”

Get real.

Oh, I’ll have to tell my aunt that story. My aunt, who left her deadbeat husband, dragged her three kids up from Texas, bought a townhouse, got a job, pay’s her bills, feeds her kids(with no help from deadbeat daddy), got school loans for college, and is almost a registered RN.

I’ll be sure to pass the information to her, that it cannot be done.

Oh, and by the way, paying an employee ten dollars and hour is not really making that big of a sacrafice. Student employees get paid that much doing work study at my school.

On top of the tips they recieve? Either way, it should be up to me, not Obama, not Pelosi, not Reid, ME, the OWNER of the business.

A little additional information, regarding minimum wage. FACT: 2 million people in the US earn minimum wage. Half of them are students, who have a parent or parents who have jobs.

 

[Toughguy]

apromisemade;

But the Constitution does say we have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of hapieness (well that’s actually the Declaration of Independence, but still).

5 million dollars would make me happy. Can the government give it to me? Or mayby you can, apromiseismade? And the Dec. of Ind. pertains to oppressive governments and singular tyrants, not healthcare, or welfare, or any other forced charity. To do otherwise, is to become what the Dec. of Ind. proclaimed against.

People* die* from not being able to afford health care, in this country.

Babies have died from high fevers because their mothers couldn’t afford to take them to the hospital or their health insurance wouldn’t cover them, even in emergency situations.

The infant mortality rate in the US is: 6.2 75% of the population has some sort of major medical coverage

The infant mortality rate in Canada is: 5.4 Canada has “free” healthcare.

Sometimes, life sucks apromisemade

 

[apromisemade]

One job? $50,000? Ummm a school teacher. Car salesman, Public works employee, Carpenter, garbageman, Secretary, Accountant and many more.

Uh-huh :ehh:

Making the standard salary in this country, it would take your average school teacher an entire year and then some to save up enough money for such a surgery. Assuming they didn’t spend their money on anything else, and I mean anything.

My mom is a college educated that worked two full time jobs, both executive leadership positions at two seperate nonprofit organizations, and her salary barely exceeded $40,000.

And yes, they can and will refuse you treatment if you can’t pay for it. Unless of course we’re talking about the emergency room, and by then it will cost, you, the taxpayer, way more money than if that person had just been able to get less extreme treatment in the first place.

Would you rather your precious money be used to pay for a $100 dollar check up or a $250,000 dollar trip to the ER that could end in death anyway? Do you even care if a pregnant mother from Ohio and her baby die of complications because she worked at a pizza place couldn’t afford a checkup that would’ve cost her a few hundred dollars? Or is it just not your problem (true story). What if that mother had been working at your pizza place because that was the only job she could find in this economy, making minimum with no coverage, and died because she couldn’t afford a doctors visit?

 

[apromisemade]

Sometimes, life sucks apromisemade

Children dying from preventable diseases here in the U.S all because of greedy insurance agents and a difference of a few hundred dollars, and all you can say is “life suck sometimes”

The lack of compassion on this thread is almost as appalling as the ignorance.

 

[cnctony]

You can send money to Africa or South America or Asia. I see the comercials to help a poor starving child. I understand the poverty around the world. I hurt for the poor and needy. I constantly give money to deserving soles for food, I work for “Cup of Cool Water” that provides labor for whatever someone needs. I have also helped build several houses for “Habitat for humanity”. I fix cars for free. I stop when someone is broke down on the highway. I help when I am asked and I ask when I can help.

When I was under employed and had no insurance, I went to a doctor that charged 25.00 for an office visit. When I got a job and had insurance that same Doctor charged 125.00 to my insurance, I paid a 20.00 copay. Our Health care and Lawyers are out of control. My Doctor explained to me that he has to pay over $100,000.00 a year for Insurance againstance malpractice.

It seems to me our (Lawyers, Insurance Companies) or (lawmakers, Lobbiest) are destroying our Health Care System.

The biggest problem is that YOU the American PEOPLE ARE TOO STUPID TOO SEE IT. YOU DUMB A@#'S AWARD PEOPLE MILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS PEOPLE THAT SUE DOCTORS AND HEALTH CARE INSTITUTIONS.

I understand that these doctors and insurance companies who KILL others from mistakes or ignorance or stupidity should pay but who pays in the end? YOU DO!!! YOU MORON!!! The lawsuit should cause Doctors and Insurance companies to go out of Business and prevent them from ever working in that field again instead of paying out MILLIONS THAT COME OUT OF MY POCKET AND YOUR POCKET.

WAKE UP AMERICA !

 

[atassina]

Universal Health Care is a wonderful idea. It is working so well in the rest of the world. For example, you only have to wait just three years for gall bladder surgery in England. And Canadians have such a high opinion of their health system that they are flocking to the United States for health care. Now, don’t you just want that in the USA?

 

[Toughguy]

apromisemade;

Uh-huh :ehh:

Making the standard salary in this country, it would take your average school teacher an entire year and then some to save up enough money for such a surgery. Assuming they didn’t spend their money on anything else, and I mean anything.

Oh. You didn’t say pay for it cash in full. Most people don’t pay cash for their cars.

My mom is a college educated that worked two full time jobs, both executive leadership positions at two seperate nonprofit organizations, and her salary barely exceeded $40,000.

And yes, they can and will refuse you treatment if you can’t pay for it. Unless of course we’re talking about the emergency room, and by then it will cost, you, the taxpayer, way more money than if that person had just been able to get less extreme treatment in the first place.

I never said accept the emergency room. What do you want, “free” teeth cleanings courtesy of the tax payer? Get real. And if someone breaks their arm, how do you get “less extreme treatment in the first place” for that?

Would you rather your precious money be used to pay for a $100 dollar check up or a $250,000 dollar trip to the ER that could end in death anyway? Do you even care if a pregnant mother from Ohio and her baby die of complications because she worked at a pizza place couldn’t afford a checkup that would’ve cost her a few hundred dollars? Or is it just not your problem (true story). What if that mother had been working at your pizza place because that was the only job she could find in this economy, making minimum with no coverage, and died because she couldn’t afford a doctors visit?

Oh stop the BS! You are either exagerating or talking nonsense. I, myself, have recieved free treatment! My cousin had “free” kidney transplant, for God’s sake! And spare me the poor, single mom ****! I don’t fall for, or bow down to bleedingheart stories and hypothetical situations. Doctors WILL provide free treatment! Not all, but most. Hospitals will provide free treatment(or a payment plan) Women doctors especially, will provide free or payment plan treatment! They are a business too, not just a health insurance vacuum!

 

[Toughguy]

apromisemade;

Children dying from preventable diseases here in the U.S all because of greedy insurance agents and a difference of a few hundred dollars, and all you can say is “life suck sometimes”

The lack of compassion on this thread is almost as appalling as the ignorance.

No, life sucks because not everybody can have “FREE” healthcare! And you are full of it and your bs stories, you commie! How many people have brought to a doctor and paid, out of your own pocket?! Do you refuse your tax returns every year, and let the gov keep it? No? Then shut the H up and put your money where your mouth is!

Ignorance, at least we aren’t liars, you bs artist.

 

[nancit]

Universal Health Care is a wonderful idea. It is working so well in the rest of the world. For example, you only have to wait just three years for gall bladder surgery in England. And Canadians have such a high opinion of their health system that they are flocking to the United States for health care. Now, don’t you just want that in the USA?

Let’s not forget how good the government is at running Social Security, Medicare, FEMA, Vetrans’s Affairs, the IRS, the INS, heck…even your local DMV!!!

 

[cynic]

They didn’t have that money in hand to begin with, the gov with held it. But if you mean in general, then get a different job, learn new skills, start a business, etc. Immigrants come here all the time and flourish. There IS opportunity here, but it is up to the individual to decide whether to find the opportunity or not. If they do not, then that is their problem. This is not the 1930’s. Granted, times are tough now, but they weren’t for the last 25 years.

Well, the obvious reply is then who is going to do the jobs that pay less than $10, or more than $10 but still not quite enough to adequately save for retirement? So you are basically implying that only self-employed risk-takers and well paid professionals should have enough to survive on once they retire. Other workers “didn’t work hard enough”

We aren’t at the welfare office.

The employees aren’t either!

 

[nancit]

Well, the obvious reply is then who is going to do the jobs that pay less than $10, or more than $10 but still not quite enough to adequatly save for retirement? So you are basically implying that only self-employed risk-takers and well paid professionals should have enough to survive on once they retire. Other workers “didn’t work hard enough”

The employees aren’t either!

No…what he is saying is that anyone has the ability to further their potential here. And how many people work for less then $10 today? And who are they? Generally, teens! Jobs that pay $10/hr or less…are not meant to be careers…they are meant for those who are working on furthering their education, acquiring more skills and planning for future careers.

 

[nancit]

Children dying from preventable diseases here in the U.S all because of greedy insurance agents and a difference of a few hundred dollars, and all you can say is “life suck sometimes”

The lack of compassion on this thread is almost as appalling as the ignorance.

Oh please…and the over-exaggeration and overly emotional appeals in this thread are even worse and much more appalling!

Talk about ignorance…first off, people are not denied needed medical care, they cannot be…as there is a FEDERAL LAW that prohibits it!

Try reading up a bit on EMTALA, passed in 1986 and signed into law by Ronald Reagan!

 

[Toughguy]

cynic;

Well, the obvious reply is then who is going to do the jobs that pay less than $10, or more than $10 but still not quite enough to adequately save for retirement?

I’m not following.

So you are basically implying that only self-employed risk-takers and well paid professionals should have enough to survive on once they retire. Other workers “didn’t work hard enough”

No, other workers made the wrong choices. Or only worked one job. Or were lazy. Or didn’t care when they were young. Who knows the reason why? And it’s not a matter of “should”, it’s a matter of “who”. WHO wanted a better job? WHO wanted to save for retirement. WHO made the right choices. WHO didn’t knock up his girlfriend. etc.

The employees aren’t either!

What employees?

 

[cynic]

No…what he is saying is that anyone has the ability to further their potential here. And how many people work for less then $10 today? And who are they? Generally, teens! Jobs that pay $10/hr or less…are not meant to be careers…they are meant for those who are working on furthering their education, acquiring more skills and planning for future careers.

There are plenty of adults earning more, but not enough for an individualised retirement account that will support them. Van drivers, cleaners, manufacturing workers… factor in the cost of living, the rents people pay in the U.S, and there’s nowhere near enough. While they are all busy up-skilling and moving on, every one of them at the same time, who does that work, and where are all the higher paying positions to absorb them? It assumes that everyone has the mental capacity, spare time (low pay = neccessity for long hours) and money (since when is it free?) for further education. Look at the median income and decide how many adults below it can save the amount required. What they get back in tax reductions is going to be minimal. As some are at pains to point out “the poor don’t pay tax”.

Getting ahead as the be-all solution. well it’s kind of divisive, since you know that many cannot do so at an early enough age to make savings a viable solution. This might sound like a like a loser mentality, but I really don’t care, because in reality you don’t want too many people to get ahead. It reduces the availability (and increases the cost) of labour. You *want *some people to be losers, but don’t want to be forced to subsidize a portion of their living costs in old age. Common bud, this is dressed up 19th Century Social Darwinism.

 

[EnchantedEve]

I have not read every post here, so forgive I have repeated someone else.

Why universal healthcare does not work:

1. No price structure. Without supply and demand to raise and lower prices, there is no way for the government to know how much of a given product to supply. This always results in shortages and rationing.
2. When a product is free, it will always necessarily increase demand, since there is no longer something to limit your consumption of scarcity, since there is no longer a price.
3. As other people have brought up, the fact the health care and its price always trended downward in the past due to increased demand is hard to ignore. Penicillin, relatively unregulated when first produced by Merck in 1940, had caught on in widespread and affordable form in less than 20 years from when Fleming developed it in 1928.
4. Regulations and restrictions make the medical field less attractive as a career. Doctors currently must go through years of medical school and residency, which is absorbitantly expensive, than have to be licensed and heavily insured. All of this makes the career discouraging, and one of the reasons why there is a shortage of full medical professionals. Its prospects as a money-making career grow slimmer and this is unavoidable. Doctors are human too and have need that needs filling. Add to this having to ration healthcare or limit service and this will make a doctor’s career even more unworkable. This will eventually make services more strained than they already are. If the government assumes all these costs themeselves, than it will further drain the possibility of making healthcare something government can sustainably fund.
5. The fact that it is not working elsewhere. Sweden, Germany, Italy and the UK are all trying to find ways to increase market incentives since they are experiencing or are expecting to experience further problems.
6. The fall of alternative medicines and new discoveries. Rationing and government mandates will eventually push the desire to make new discoveries or try alternate methods all but inconceivable. With the need for government approval and permission in everything, as well as official scrutiny, alternative methods will all but evaporate and therefore make less probable the possibility of less expensive or natural methods being used. Rationing will make trying new products and ideas less practical and more risky, and the incentive to discover new products for profit will be gone.
7. Limited alternatives for care. If the government tells you no, who can you turn to? The market offers abundant possibilities and alternatives. When the government cancels these as “unnecessary” or “unapproved,” where do you go then. This already happens elsewhere so it will certainly happen here.

The list goes on, as does the list as to why the current system is not working and why the free market in healthcare does not exist and has not in a very long time. But I will stop here for now.

 

[ProlifeMD]

The taxpayers already pay a lot for health care. Ten to twenty years ago the government was subsidizing medical education the amount of $10 from the government for every $1 spent by the student. Unless that has drastically changed the govenment and the people who pay taxes have a duty and right to see a reasonable return on their investment.

The problem with institutions charging extreme rates to some groups is even more of a problem. The rate for a procedure can vary by nearly 900 percent depending on insurance or quallifying in certain categories.

 

[soma]

We are living longer than before in the U.S. , but 34 countries live longer than us so if we use that as a measure we don’t have the best Health Care System.