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Toughguy
Guest
That is true, not the best measure of healthcare.
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nancit
Guest
First off, I am a buddette, not a bud. Secondly, what you are trying to sell the rest of us is nothing more than, in your words, “Dressed up” socialism.
You are spreading abosolute falicy in regards to the opportunities available to everyone currently in the US.
I put myself through school, paying for it like so many others do…via student loans. I have an MBA, but no one provided anything for me while I worked fulltime and went to school fulltime to achieve that.
I worked as a waitress for years to support my endeavors, eventually acquiring new skills, I looked for an office job…slowly I worked my way up, learning new skills while also earning my degrees.
In the process though…guess what? I was also diagnosed with heart failure…so I had to literally quit everything so I could undergo medical treatment to repair the disorder I had…oh and guess what else…I had NO medical INSURANCE.
Yet…here I am, just a mere 10 years later…not only survived the open heart surgery, fully recovered, but also managed to since then finish and receive my bachelor’s and my MBA! I have worked for a small business, became a Director of it, bought my first home, had a pool put in and now am looking to start my own business.
All of this while being a devout Catholic SINGLE woman, who also supports her 72 year old mother! And believe it or not, I didn’t once manage to “get myself pregnant” or fall into a “bad” relationship.
In fact, quite the opposite…I have also found a wonderful, devout man to share the rest of my life with and are hoping to marry before the end of the year.
So…please…don’t tell me its not possible to move oneself forward in life…we have every opportunity to do so here in the US with “free” education being offered to anyone willing to work hard and be responsible.
Finally, its an absolute insult to say that most people don’t have the mental capacity to actually make a better life for themselves…and again, is nothing more than a tool used by the liberals, socialists and communists to further their agendas! “People are too stupid to care for themselves, to make up their own minds, so we must do it for them!!!” Its their mantra…and it keeps “them” in power!
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EnchantedEve
Guest
Not if it means they will further lose money as a prospect. Taxpayers also should have the opportunity to pull out when their investment is not profitable.
The problem is not the cost of healthcare, but government programs inflating the cost, among other things.
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soma
Guest
I think Jesus would be for universal health care.He was for quality, compassionate healing for anyone who needed help.
Matthew 5:22 …whoever calls his brother “You good-for-nothing” will be brought before the Council, and whoever calls his brother a worthless fool will be in danger of going to the fire of hell.
I say why are we so mean to others? We don’t want everyone who needs medical help to get it? We worry about a few dollars more than helping others. I sense an anger at people who are less fortunate. I feel they are more important than paper money.
America’s health care is socialized from the top down. This means insurance companies pharmacies and bureaucracies, out of touch with people’s real needs make the decisions. Market forces are not allowed to operate for rational decision-making and cost control. We can’t buy affordable drugs in Canada that are made in the United States. The government is protecting profits more than our health, but we are selfish and get what we deserve, which is hate and arrogance that makes us sick.
Matthew 5:22 …whoever calls his brother “You good-for-nothing” will be brought before the Council, and whoever calls his brother a worthless fool will be in danger of going to the fire of hell.
I say why are we so mean to others? We don’t want everyone who needs medical help to get it? We worry about a few dollars more than helping others. I sense an anger at people who are less fortunate. I feel they are more important than paper money.
America’s health care is socialized from the top down. This means insurance companies pharmacies and bureaucracies, out of touch with people’s real needs make the decisions. Market forces are not allowed to operate for rational decision-making and cost control. We can’t buy affordable drugs in Canada that are made in the United States. The government is protecting profits more than our health, but we are selfish and get what we deserve, which is hate and arrogance that makes us sick.
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nancit
Guest
That doesn’t mean that Jesus was for universal healthcare insurance. All it means is that we have the INDIVIDUAL responsibility to care for our fellow neighbors. It doesn’t mean that it is the government’s job to dictate WHO can receive care and WHO can’t. It doesn’t mean that the government should take from those it deems “wealthy” to give to those who they deem are “not”.
Geesh…I can’t believe that ANYONE would want the government, who has had such brain childs as Social Security, Medicare, FEMA, the IRS, the INS, Veteran’s Hospitals and on and on…to be in charge of an individual’s medical care!!!
I guess the only time some will change their mind is when they find their elderly mother or father is in need of a life saving surgery and the government says, “NOPE” their too old and unworthy.
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cynic
Guest
You already have a form dressed up socialism. It’s people like you who want to remove it (labour laws, social security etc) all so you don’t have to pay $10 an hour or overtime. Who has more of an agenda?
Good on you. Not everyone can or should be expected to own their own business or attain an upper management position by 40, if that’s what is being implied.
You realize that you did benefit from ‘socialist’ labour laws while working as a waitress and in an entry level office job, right?
Degrees aren’t free.
I didn’t say most, I said “not everyone”. That’s insulting? Talk about misrepresentation…
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Toughguy
Guest
cynic;
And those laws came after years and years of free enterprise. That agenda has been imposed on freedom. THAT, is the agenda.
Then they shouldn’t be expected to benefit from the hard work, dedication, and sacrifice of others, if that’s what’s being implied!
Overtime working at a resturant? Working weekends? Earning less than minumum wage and taxes on tips, whether you get a tip or not? Please, tell us how she benefitted.
It can be, if one works hard enough at academics or sports. But public schools do not require tuition. And there are loans availiable for college. So I really do not see a reason why someone can’t do well in the US. Hell, “uneducated” immigrants do it all the time here. And public schools are not free either. If you have children or not, we have to pay for public schools and teachers unions. What? Not good enough for you?
Have you ever told someone that they are too stupid to succeed? Give it a try, see what they think. And if you believe that, would you think that we should take away their right to vote? If they are too stupid to earn a living, then they are probably too stupid to be informed on the issues, no?
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cynic
Guest
You must mean those laws that have been around for the last 80 years, encompassing very prosperous periods with regards to living standards and GDP etc.
Right so those earning less aren’t working hard, everyone gets paid fairly, economically valuable work can only be the kind that requires higher learning, it’s all so black and white.
It’d be interesting to know exactly what happens to a truck driver when he has to retire in this scenario (not to be partronising, I know some of them earn good money)
Doesn’t your Federal Government provide most of these loans?
I’m not sure what’s taught in a public school could be considered career training… in anything. It’s introductory at best.
Well, I’m not suggesting those below some arbitrary income level are “too stupid to succeed” because I don’t believe what they do is necessarily worthless. Who brought up the right to vote… er, you, so what do you think about it?
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Toughguy
Guest
cynic;5226626]
I was asking you what you thought about people who do not have the mental capacity (or will) to move up in life, but vote, presumably without knowing the issues because they are either too stupid or too busy to inform themselves?
Let’s not forget about the little role that technology played in all that, that has more credibility than laws.
Don’t forget one thing, they all have choices. I worked at McDonalds when I was younger. I chose to move on and do better. This is still America pal.
What scenario?
No, the tax payers do. And they are loans, not freebies. With interest.
Who say’s it has to? When I went into the trades, the schools didn’t teach me skills. Like all people, you go out into the world, and learn your craft for low pay, and then move up.
But you think that a guy who did the work(hours beyond the 40 hour work week), took the risk, deals with the stress of owning a business, pays high taxes, should pay someone more, who works 40 hours a week, gets overtime if need be, is given a job, which pays his bills, because he is owed that???Well, I’m not suggesting those below some arbitrary income level are “too stupid to succeed” because I don’t believe what they do is necessarily worthless. Who brought up the right to vote… er, you, so what do you think about it?
I was asking you what you thought about people who do not have the mental capacity (or will) to move up in life, but vote, presumably without knowing the issues because they are either too stupid or too busy to inform themselves?
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
Come on guy’s! Did anyone here ever read the life of abraham lincoln? Some people realy can be poor and make it but most people back then got married and in proverbs it does say 2 pay checks are better then one. Thing’s happened back then because they realy lived differntly they had patience , they endured, they perservered, they believed not only in god but practiced that way of life to! Love of christ nancy
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EnchantedEve
Guest
I guess this is a valid postion if you disregard that government intervention, socialism, and cumpulsory anything has never worked anywhere. You would have to ignore vast amounts of suffering and hardship. I guess if Our Lord favored innocent people being neglected and made into statistics rather than actually being taken care of then, yes, He would probably favor this system.
My grandfather was an orthodist, and he often told us of the nightmare system that healthcare had become. Medicare, Medical, and Medicaid paying less than cost, operating losses, and even non-payment of bills. He had to accept these programs in business, although they dearly cost him money. Of course, he said this was not near as bad as the people who came from Canada, such as the man who had a splinter in his right toe and by the time they treated him had developed gangrene and needed amputation.
The argument that people are more important than money is fine if you do not have to make a living at it. How do you feed your children? Care for your own family? The government used this canard on my grandfather all the time.
I can assure you, if healthcare is socialized completely (its already halfway there), for the reasons I state above, quality will decline further, rationing will occur, and yes, the poor and needy will be hurt the most. Meaning well is no replacement for actual performance. The free market, if we actually had one, works. Socialism never has and never will.
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abukamoon
Guest
WRONG. First, our government is prohibited from providing socialized medicine by the 10th Amendment of the Bill of Rights. If it is not authorized in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, the federal government is prohibited from engaging in an area.
Second, the Catholic Church has always opposed socialism. Catholics are not to look to the state for medical care, jobs, housing or food.
Third, medical care is not a “right”, anymore than food or housing. We don’t have some unalienable right to these things. We are obligated to work for them. And we, as individuals have an obligation to take care of those who are unable to work for them.
You should know this.
Now, as far as social justice is concerned: Shouldn’t we have honest weights and measure? I am referring to our monetary system. We have been off the gold standard for decades. We have been robbed of 96 cents of the 1913 dollar. Where is all the concern for “social justice”?
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cynic
Guest
One where there’s no Social Security. For example someone who’s worked as mechanic all their lives gets to 66, their body is wrecked, and their savings won’t support them.
It’s still socialism. Each taxpayer didn’t give their consent to pay for this. The interest is lower than the equivalent from a bank.
I don’t know much about trade apprenticeships in the U.S, but a quick wikipedia points to them being offered through unions, a third party.
It depends on what he’s paying him in the first place. You might say the same about sweat shop labour - why should they demand higher wages blah blah.
Overtime is a socialist labour law, one this 40 hour week guy wouldn’t be getting if his employer were at liberty not to offer it.
How many people of normal intelligence still don’t have a grasp of the issues? In a competitve job market differences in intelligence are going to be apparent. Does that mean that aborbing and understanding of information is beyond *every *adult below a certain income?
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atassina
Guest
People need health care. What are they going to do about 1) Making their own effort to stay healthy and 2) Paying for their own health care? First: personal responsibility.
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Michael_David
Guest
We have come a long way in the last 100-150 years in this country.
What would I have done in 1850 (when this territory became a state) when I had a fever? When I had the sniffles? When I got a cut?
Even as a youth, I let the dog lick the cut… it healed well.
With a fever, rest, cover up, liquids, and of course, chicken soup.
Sniffles meant have a hanky.
As my grandparents arthritis was treated with a brandy nightcap and aspirin.
Even childbirth was sometimes done out of the hospital by a midwife; if in the hospital, the money was paid direct… no insurance back in those days. Also, most hospitals were run by religious organizations… not businesses as today.
But yes, most families stayed in close relationships and that made for more values and everyone doing what they can… no free rides.
So time has really made things improve… and more costly to all, even those that don’t use it.
What would I have done in 1850 (when this territory became a state) when I had a fever? When I had the sniffles? When I got a cut?
Even as a youth, I let the dog lick the cut… it healed well.
With a fever, rest, cover up, liquids, and of course, chicken soup.
Sniffles meant have a hanky.
As my grandparents arthritis was treated with a brandy nightcap and aspirin.
Even childbirth was sometimes done out of the hospital by a midwife; if in the hospital, the money was paid direct… no insurance back in those days. Also, most hospitals were run by religious organizations… not businesses as today.
But yes, most families stayed in close relationships and that made for more values and everyone doing what they can… no free rides.
So time has really made things improve… and more costly to all, even those that don’t use it.
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atassina
Guest
In short: I agree. Too many people rely on others than on themselves first.
The Black Hole
Feed me.
Clothe me.
House me.
Heal me.
Educate me.
Pay me.
Don’t expect notin’ in return.
The Black Hole
Feed me.
Clothe me.
House me.
Heal me.
Educate me.
Pay me.
Don’t expect notin’ in return.
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soma
Guest
Middle class and wealthy Americans are selfish for putting their material needs first before thinking of others. I’m glad for unselfish Americans, who are not afraid to help others.
Its good that some Christians are willing to pay taxes to help others. The selfish Americans want all taxes for bombs and weapons, but not Health Care. I think this is selfish.
Its good that some Christians are willing to pay taxes to help others. The selfish Americans want all taxes for bombs and weapons, but not Health Care. I think this is selfish.
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
Should the Government Provide Free Universal Health Care for All Americans?
In a Nutshell
Yes
No
YES!
The number of uninsured citizens has grown to over 40 million.
Health care has become increasingly unaffordable for businesses and individuals.
We can eliminate wasteful inefficiencies such as duplicate paper work, claim approval, insurance submission, etc.
We can develop a centralized national database which makes diagnosis and treatment easier for doctors.
Medical professionals can concentrate on healing the patient rather than on insurance procedures, malpractice liability, etc.
Free medical services would encourage patients to practice preventive medicine and inquire about problems early when treatment will be light; currently, patients often avoid physicals and other preventive measures because of the costs.
NO!
There isn’t a single government agency or division that runs efficiently; do we really want an organization that developed the U.S. Tax Code handling something as complex as health care?
“Free” health care isn’t really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.
Profit motives, competition, and individual ingenuity have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness.
Government-controlled health care would lead to a decrease in patient flexibility.
Patients aren’t likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now.
Just because Americans are uninsured doesn’t mean they can’t receive health care; nonprofits and government-run hospitals provide services to those who don’t have insurance, and it is illegal to refuse emergency medical service because of a lack of insurance.
Government-mandated procedures will likely reduce doctor flexibility and lead to poor patient care.
Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for the burden of those who smoke, are obese, etc.
A long, painful transition will have to take place involving lost insurance industry jobs, business closures, and new patient record creation.
Loss of private practice options and possible reduced pay may dissuade many would-be doctors from pursuing the profession.
Malpractice lawsuit costs, which are already sky-high, could further explode since universal care may expose the government to legal liability, and the possibility to sue someone with deep pockets usually invites more lawsuits.
Government is more likely to pass additional restrictions or increase taxes on smoking, fast food, etc., leading to a further loss of personal freedoms.
Patient confidentiality is likely to be compromised since centralized health information will likely be maintained by the government.
Like social security, any government benefit eventually is taken as a “right” by the public, meaning that it’s politically near impossible to remove or curtail it later on when costs get out of control.
In a Nutshell
Yes
No
YES!
The number of uninsured citizens has grown to over 40 million.
Health care has become increasingly unaffordable for businesses and individuals.
We can eliminate wasteful inefficiencies such as duplicate paper work, claim approval, insurance submission, etc.
We can develop a centralized national database which makes diagnosis and treatment easier for doctors.
Medical professionals can concentrate on healing the patient rather than on insurance procedures, malpractice liability, etc.
Free medical services would encourage patients to practice preventive medicine and inquire about problems early when treatment will be light; currently, patients often avoid physicals and other preventive measures because of the costs.
NO!
There isn’t a single government agency or division that runs efficiently; do we really want an organization that developed the U.S. Tax Code handling something as complex as health care?
“Free” health care isn’t really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc.
Profit motives, competition, and individual ingenuity have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness.
Government-controlled health care would lead to a decrease in patient flexibility.
Patients aren’t likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now.
Just because Americans are uninsured doesn’t mean they can’t receive health care; nonprofits and government-run hospitals provide services to those who don’t have insurance, and it is illegal to refuse emergency medical service because of a lack of insurance.
Government-mandated procedures will likely reduce doctor flexibility and lead to poor patient care.
Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for the burden of those who smoke, are obese, etc.
A long, painful transition will have to take place involving lost insurance industry jobs, business closures, and new patient record creation.
Loss of private practice options and possible reduced pay may dissuade many would-be doctors from pursuing the profession.
Malpractice lawsuit costs, which are already sky-high, could further explode since universal care may expose the government to legal liability, and the possibility to sue someone with deep pockets usually invites more lawsuits.
Government is more likely to pass additional restrictions or increase taxes on smoking, fast food, etc., leading to a further loss of personal freedoms.
Patient confidentiality is likely to be compromised since centralized health information will likely be maintained by the government.
Like social security, any government benefit eventually is taken as a “right” by the public, meaning that it’s politically near impossible to remove or curtail it later on when costs get out of control.
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heaven_help_me
Guest
I am not sure where you live, but there are public technical high schools that train students in all sorts of fields, that are able to get good jobs right out of high school. These students are usually less academic oriented, but not always.
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EnchantedEve
Guest
Personally, I am opposed to the government doing both. Being pro-life means not only being opposed to these ridiculous wars, but also being opposed to the idea that government can possibly run healthcare more efficiently, and to anyone’s benefit,
Please, do not gloss over all of us who oppose government imposed healthcare. It will not be utopia and life will not be wonderful all of a sudden. Can someone please cite an example of where “unselfishly” paying our taxes has actually improved anything?
Some of us do help others without the government stealing from us, by volunteering and donating. Having the government pick my pocket and advocating he do it to my neighbor I do not think is a virtuous act. The government has impoverished with taxes and destroyed with wars countless lives, and you think these people should run our health?
No thank you. I can serve my neighbor without a gun to my head and help others on my own initiative. We are called to help others, but I do not remember where Christ said we do this by filling out our tax forms!
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