Universal Health Insurance (2)

  • Thread starter Thread starter EphelDuath
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Oscarthecat said:
Comparing costs between the entire US healthcare system and the cost of what is covered in UHC countries is hardly comparing apples to apples.
Click to expand...
Even if those numbers are overinflated, there are still millions who cannot afford it, and aren’t spending it on other things.

No one in my apartment owns a car, we all live bare bones lives, and we simply cannot afford any insurance. I have hit a safety net, but they still don’t have one, and I’ve been a drag on them for years and made it worse still.
 
pathia said:
Even if those numbers are overinflated, there are still millions who cannot afford it, and aren’t spending it on other things.

No one in my apartment owns a car, we all live bare bones lives, and we simply cannot afford any insurance. I have hit a safety net, but they still don’t have one, and I’ve been a drag on them for years and made it worse still.
Click to expand...
Pathia, didn’t you read my post from earlier today where I broke down the numbers of uninsured people to reveal that there are people in this country who are in real and dire need of healthcare, and cannot get it because they either don’t qualify or can’t afford it?

I agree that there should be systems in place to help those who are in genuine need. I just don’t think the government is the right entity to provide those systems.

I know that you think the government is the most expedient way to meet your needs, my argument is that it isn’t the BEST way to meet your needs over the long run.

Think about this- the government that you want managing your healthcare is the same government that created the system that has put you in such a bad spot right now. They are the ones that created the obviously flawed criteria that ignored your needs until your health degraded to your current condition.

Why are you looking to this same group to solve the problems they have caused for you in the first place?

Of all the people in this discussion, I am surprised that you cannot see that the government is not the solution because it has been the problem all along. It is time to start looking for a solution that removes control from the government and the other power brokers in our healthcare system.
 
Since I was an employee of hospitals and medical centers for around eight years, I decided a change was due and moved onto another career. Working in a hospital was a fantastic experience since it was like a vibrant city where everyone there became a big family trying their best to work together. Mental and physical health of the patient and those who tended to that patient was and still is the most important thing. I could apply what I’ve just said as “universal health insurance”! 😃

I think the following information could be taken into consideration regarding this topic of discussion: the online *2008 CIA World Factbook *states the current population in the United States to be 303,824,646 (July 2008 est.), Population growth rate: 0.883% (2008 est.), Birth rate: 14.18 births/1,000 population (2008 est.), Death rate: 8.27 deaths/1,000 population (2008 est.).

Along with several other documents worthy of review:
  1. **Overview of the Uninsured in the United States: An analysis of the 2005 Current Population Survey U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Office of the Assistant Secretary for Planning and Evaluation September 22, 2005 **. A snippet from this document which I found be of interest:" * The Uninsured by Citizenship Status The vast majority (79%) of the uninsured are citizens. However, a disproportionate percentage of the uninsured are non-citizens. While non-citizens are 7% of the population, they are 21% of the uninsured. Non-citizens are a disproportionate percentage of the uninsured because they are more likely to have characteristics associated with higher uninsured rates. Non-citizens are more likely than citizens to: be Hispanic (59% vs. 12%), have incomes below 200% FPL (51% vs. 30%), be young adults age 18 to 34 (42% vs. 22%), and work for small firms with fewer than 100 employees (34% vs. 22%).*"
    aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/05/uninsured-cps/index.htm
    Overview of the Uninsured in the United States: An analysis of the 2005 Current Population Survey | ASPE
  2. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has a rather lengthy article **Uninsured Americans: Newly Released Health Insurance Statistics. ** Here’s a snippet of from this article:
    "*National Health Interview Survey
    2show slight increases in uninsured adults:
    • In 2006, 14.8 percent of Americans, or 43.6 million, were currently without health insurance.
    • Among working-age Adults (those ages 18-64), 19.8% did not have health insurance in 2006, an increase in the percent uninsured from 18.9% the year before.
    • Approximately 9.3% of children under the age of 18 did not have health insurance in 2006, a non significant increase in the uninsured from 8.9% in 2005.
Data from 20063also show differences in percentage uninsured by race and ethnicity:
• Almost a third (32.1 percent) of Hispanic people were uninsured when interviewed in 2006.
• While 10.4 percent of non-Hispanic white persons and 15.9 percent of non-Hispanic black persons were uninsured when interviewed.

A person was defined as uninsured if he or she did not have any private health insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP), state-sponsored or other government-sponsored health plan, or military plan. A person was also defined as uninsured if he or she had only Indian Health Service coverage or had only a private plan that paid for one type of service such as accidents or dental care.*"

Be sure to read those three pdf’s under **More Data and Statistics **which is below of the main article.🙂
cdc.gov/Features/Uninsured/
http://www.cdc.gov/Features/Uninsured/

A baby step here - I wish there was a way to supply free high-quality vitamins and supplements to the uninsured. Wishing everyone health and happiness!🙂
 
Oscarthecat said:
Of all the people in this discussion, I am surprised that you cannot see that the government is not the solution because it has been the problem all along. It is time to start looking for a solution that removes control from the government and the other power brokers in our healthcare system.
Click to expand...
The government at least tried. The government at least had social workers there to try to find me assistance. You know what? Sometimes it did!

The market just said ‘no, we don’t insure people like YOU’ No compromise, no suggestions, no help, no assistance just NO. No suggestions on what plans I make take, because there were none. No assistance on finding another company that would, because there is none. No compassion, no caring, nothing. I get form letter after form letter rejecting me, over and over and over and over again. I have over TWENTY of them. This is not just a ‘we won’t cover this, or that for Y months’. It is ‘we cannot offer you a plan, because of X’ and X is something that is an ingrained part of my person. That is, it’s never ever going away, therefore they will NEVER cover me.

The government may only feed me meager crumbs, but that’s better than being curbstomped and insulted by the free market.

That is what I think the way I do.
 
Homerun40968 said:
My top value in this debate is the general well being of the American people. While universal health insurance for every American sounds like it would significantly reduce medical problems, I do not believe it would. First, the doctor-patient ratio would increase, and doctors would be seeing more patients and therefore not be able to treat each one as well. Second, people with terminal illnesses would not be able to get treated as quickly, due to a longer waiting list. Third, countries such as Canada have established this policy, and it has been a failure. Canadians are always coming to hospitals in the USA. Fourth, the status quo ensures treatment for every patient already. No doctor can reject a patient in a hospital for the lack of funding. Problem appears to be solved already. Fifth, the funds required for the government mandate this program would be through the roof, and thus money could not be spent elsewhere, on problems that truly do need funding (environment, protecting the troops, immigration problems, economic stimulus, etc.)

The Catholic Church currently advocates for universal health insurance. While their intent is great, I do not believe that the problem could be solved by the method in which they are in favor of.

The counter-plan would be this: provide incentives for private industries to contribute to the American health care system. This way, doctors would not have such strict regulations, the advantages of the current system would be maintained, and the government would not be spending so much money.
Click to expand...
If the doctor-patient ratio would increase significantly with universal health care then it means that presently many people who need a doctor cannot get to see one and are kept off the “waiting list” because of lack of insurance.

To my mind, a disproportion between health care providers and population needs has to be addressed and fixed, regardless of how health care is funded. Otherwise it means acceptance of the new law of the jungle: survival of the richest.

I could see why the Church might have trouble with that concept…
 
I think that at the very least, cheap or free preventive healthcare services should be universally available for the following reasons:
  1. early action can prevent many expensive-to-treat health conditions
  2. catching health conditions early would relieve the pressure on the health care system by reducing demand for services
  3. opportunities for contact with the economically disadvantaged would provide an opportunity for health education and counseling, which would in turn improve their health or prevent illness
  4. the overall health of the population affects us individually, so at least for selfish socioeconomic reasons it 's in our interest to see that the people around us are healthy
 
Caesar517 said:
I certainly respect your opinion, but I think it is pointlss to enter a debate with the “I’m right and I won’t change my mind for anything” mentality. It defeats the entire purpose of seeking truth via debate.

You haven’t ansewred this question, though: If I have a right to something, yet I done actually have it, doesn’t that mean someone has violated my rights? Rights do not become violated of their own accord and a person certainly can’t violate their own rights.
Click to expand...
In morality there is only one truth. In this area that is not so. Please don’t pretend that there is. You then disregard any other solutions as being false and that is not respectful.
 
SFTor said:
This is simply ignorant. The FDIC was created after the Great Depression, when we had banks overrun with depositors who wanted their money out yesterday. The FDIC provides stability in our financial system.

Health care fits in the same category. It is a factor to promote stability and productivity in our society. If we allow our health care system to continue to deteriorate, we will pay for it through higher social costs, higher health care costs, lost productivity, and lost ability to compete with other economies.

Caesar: The Census Bureau numbers specifically say “Americans”. Are illegal immigrants Americans?
Click to expand...
I agree on all points except about illegal immigrants. They are not citizens and therefore are not entitled to the benefits we at least pay taxes for.
 
seekerz said:
If the doctor-patient ratio would increase significantly with universal health care then it means that presently many people who need a doctor cannot get to see one and are kept off the “waiting list” because of lack of insurance.

To my mind, a disproportion between health care providers and population needs has to be addressed and fixed, regardless of how health care is funded. Otherwise it means acceptance of the new law of the jungle: survival of the richest.

I could see why the Church might have trouble with that concept…
Click to expand...
It may help or it may not help. What good is a misdiagnose? What good would it be if a system scares off good health professionals? Chances are I doubt it would increase the doctor to patient ratio. I would assume, which is much the same now, is that the number will be shifted to PA’s and nurses. That may be very efficient, but one has to be careful of not going too far, and sending patients to them who need to have more extensive training.

You are right, there are problems in the system that need to be address, but as homerun pointed out “Fifth, the funds required for the government mandate this program would be through the roof, and thus money could not be spent elsewhere, on problems that truly do need funding (environment, protecting the troops, immigration problems, economic stimulus, etc.)”

Economically there are constraints. Where do you want to take the money from? Education? I guess you could say the military, but what happens when a major problem happens in another country that is critical to the world economy? What would happen if you have a full tank of gas, but no food in the radius of where you could drive are walk?

As the saying goes you can have something done fast, cheap, and good? You can pick one, maybe two, but never three. In health care it is usually picking access to care, options available, and quality of care. Pick one, maybe two, but you’ll have a hard time getting three unless you want to pay tremendously. That doesn’t matter if it is single payer, third-party payer, or universal payer. Possibly in the three types, I’m sure you could do some things more effeciently, but I’d think one could only really expect marginal economic gains.
 
This thread has gone on too long for me. We have reached a stalemate and that is probably the way it is meant to be because neither side can assume the premise that theirs is truth. This subject is totally based on opinion with a few staistics thrown in. One is still free morally to take whatever approach they want similar to the death penalty. Church teaching does not require us to be in either direction. We are permitted to be for or against the death penalty and we are permitted to be for or against UHC. This is just one ofthose many things that Holy Mother Church does not take us by the hand and say “this is the only way to respond.” So I now exit with my beliefs solidly in place because rather than Catholic answers I seem to have found Buddhist answers in that nothing is guaranteed and if you were unfortunate enough not to get something well, you’re just out of luck.
 
Why Universal Health Care is a failure

“Father” of Canadian Health Care Admits its a Failure

Nationalized Health Care is Broken

Senior Citizens cost the most when it comes to health care. Who’s health care do you think will be rationed first when we can’t pay for? Probably the senior citizens because it costs the most.

Irish patients suffer health service ‘without a heart’.

Waiting lines seem to have increase significantly in Canada.

What is that you say Bernanke, the more government spending on health care the more expensive it becomes? This is why health care is expensive today. It is because of government. and you want to fix it by…adding more government. OK.

A little sob story. The sad part is this isn’t the only one. Thank you NHS(British Universal Health Care).

Record number of Brits are leaving the country to seek HealthCare.

There is another article out there saying British doctors are threating to leave the country because the British government wants to increase the doctors hours. Apparently the British government wants to increase them from 60 hours a week to 80 hours a week. Sorry I don’t have the article here I am still searching for it. I will post it when I find it.

And there are many more issues with it. Here is the thing with health care. Health insurance didn’t used to be this expensive. Then The government decided to get involved and all of the sudden health care became expensive. Now sit back and think for a moment what would be the proper solution to the health care problem we are having today? Probably less government not more government!
 
goofyjim said:
In morality there is only one truth. In this area that is not so. Please don’t pretend that there is. You then disregard any other solutions as being false and that is not respectful.
Click to expand...
The first part of that post was merely saying that argument is pointless unless we all keep open minds.

The second part posed a question again, which you haven’t answered, again.

In this area, ceteris paribus, there must be one solution that works better than the other solutions, right? I’m not disregarding other solutions, I’m on here listening to you talk about them. 🙂
 
chb03c said:
And there are many more issues with it. Here is the thing with health care. Health insurance didn’t used to be this expensive. Then The government decided to get involved and all of the sudden health care became expensive. Now sit back and think for a moment what would be the proper solution to the health care problem we are having today? Probably less government not more government!
Click to expand...
It isn’t a matter of expense. Insurance companies won’t offer me plans, period. You could give me a million dollars, and I wouldn’t be able to afford a plan, because there are no plans that will accept me. The free market is allowed to provide the services it desires, therefore, it does not see a market in people as sick as I am, so I cannot get insurance from it, no matter what. It’s as simple as that. Without government intervention, it is impossible for me to get healthcare, no other way around it.

The only solution offered by anyone here is to rely on random acts of charity from strangers. Seriously, how reliable could that possibly be? I get hospitalized three or four times a year. Am I supposed to go out and beg regularly, and say ‘well you know in a few months I might be in the hospital, so I need to start saving up now!’
 
I think if government got out of health care and we all lost this “take care of me, big government” attitude, charity organizations would flourish and could help those who are genuinely in need.
 
Caesar517 said:
I think if government got out of health care and we all lost this “take care of me, big government” attitude, charity organizations would flourish and could help those who are genuinely in need.
Click to expand...
See, that’s where things get screwy. I am seen as an embodiment of a life of sin. People can easily shrug off assisting me as being OK, because if they did help me, they would be saying my sin is OK. This was why I could not get assistance from my parish. I was too controversial of a case for the priest to bring up with the congregation.
 
chb03c said:
There is another article out there saying British doctors are threating to leave the country because the British government wants to increase the doctors hours. Apparently the British government wants to increase them from 60 hours a week to 80 hours a week. Sorry I don’t have the article here I am still searching for it. I will post it when I find it.

And there are many more issues with it. Here is the thing with health care. Health insurance didn’t used to be this expensive. Then The government decided to get involved and all of the sudden health care became expensive. Now sit back and think for a moment what would be the proper solution to the health care problem we are having today? Probably less government not more government!
Click to expand...
I remember reading several years ago an article about British doctors leaving the UK. I’ll hunt for it. I also vaguely recall an article about alcoholism being a problem with UK teens which seemed to suggest many of the youth there have psoriasis of the liver by the time they are 19 (?), which has now resulted in an attempt being made to change the drinking age for alcohol consumption. Perhaps another person here knows the facts pertaining to that?

Globalization has made it possible for employers to recruit worldwide in search of top-notch employees. An example is my cat’s veterinarian who graduated within the top three of his class from Cambridge Veterinary School Department of Veterinary Medicine. He moved to America because of the money, the breathtaking beauty and weather of my state. He told me that he enjoys the endless opportunities to explore a wide range of interests that my state offers. He also ended up marrying a wonderful American lady.😃

As I’ve already mentioned in message 1114, I’m not a fan of Universal Health Insurance though I do recognize the need for good federally funded programs to help the poor.🙂 I think the key objective for a society should be education, health, nutrition, etc.

A good read: HEALTH, UNITED STATES, 2007 with Chartbook on Trends in the Health of Americans
cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus07.pdf

 
pathia said:
See, that’s where things get screwy. I am seen as an embodiment of a life of sin. People can easily shrug off assisting me as being OK, because if they did help me, they would be saying my sin is OK. This was why I could not get assistance from my parish. I was too controversial of a case for the priest to bring up with the congregation.
Click to expand...
Then find a different parish and priest. If I understood other threads long ago, some of your issues were not your fault. How about privately meeting with a priest or someone at another church. Explain your situation to them.

People generally have a knack to assume the worst about others, because they have a fear of being scandalized, which is sad to see.
 
ComputerGeek25 said:
Then find a different parish and priest. If I understood other threads long ago, some of your issues were not your fault. How about privately meeting with a priest or someone at another church. Explain your situation to them.

People generally have a knack to assume the worst about others, because they have a fear of being scandalized, which is sad to see.
Click to expand...
I’d feel guilty then, I’m not really a practicing Catholic anymore. I’d feel like I was using them, even if it was technically a ‘good’ cause, it would make me feel incredibly guilty.
 
pathia said:
It isn’t a matter of expense. Insurance companies won’t offer me plans, period. You could give me a million dollars, and I wouldn’t be able to afford a plan, because there are no plans that will accept me. The free market is allowed to provide the services it desires, therefore, it does not see a market in people as sick as I am, so I cannot get insurance from it, no matter what. It’s as simple as that. Without government intervention, it is impossible for me to get healthcare, no other way around it.

The only solution offered by anyone here is to rely on random acts of charity from strangers. Seriously, how reliable could that possibly be? I get hospitalized three or four times a year. Am I supposed to go out and beg regularly, and say ‘well you know in a few months I might be in the hospital, so I need to start saving up now!’
Click to expand...
pathia,

If you don’t mind me asking why can’t you get health insurance?

Your comment about the free market is true. However if you read one of the articles I posted you will notice that insurance companies are mandated to give several different services, most of which the common person doesn’t need. As a result of the mandates your risk value increases and thus forcing a higher health insurance rate. This is why health insurance costs so much money.

If you want to learn more about how insurance companies work you might want to try googling it and reading about it. Pay close attention to the transactions between doctor and insurer and how the insurance companies basically decide how much the doctor gets paid and how this effects the price of a normal check up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top