Universal Health Insurance (2)

[EphelDuath]

um, don’t want to burst your bubble, but pragmatism IS a philosophical method that places primary value on the effectiveness of a given proposal.

Come on, you know what I meant. We shouldn’t base things on what we want them to do, but rather on what they actually do.

The problem with being strictly pragmatic is that you end up valuing the ends over the means. For example, the most effective way to battle overpopulation would be to drop bombs on large cities- very pragmatic, but hardly consistent with Catholic Moral Teaching.

Pragmatism is different from utilitarianism. I think it’s more immoral to kill people to end overpopulation than to let overpopulation take its course, so that means that bombing places is the opposite of pragmatism.

More socialist propaganda-sewing the lie that “people have no power without the government”

You didn’t answer my question.

Majority rule is just a civilized version of mob rule…

And yet, you continually badger me about how the Founding Fathers would never have left in order to avoid taxation! The irony kills me!

should people have just laid down and let the government keep those laws just because a majority said so?

No, they should have opposed it vehemently. But not with force. I’m not saying you don’t have the right to disagree with me, what I’m saying is that if UHC is enacted by the government, you don’t get to avoid it just because you don’t like it.

No, you’re just telling me that if I don’t, you have no moral objection to government goons breaking down my door and putting my family out on the street.

Tax evasion is a crime. Are you implying that you should be allowed to objectively wrong other people but not be punished simply because you happen to think less of taxation than others?

If you want to do something, then pay for it yourself. If you want me to help you pay for it, then ask me.
Just don’t try to force me to do it.

I would be absolutely OK with this if charity actually worked well enough to merit it over taxation.

So you’re saying we should just go along with whatever the democratic republic tells me to do- doesn’t matter what that is, because that’s just how it is.

No, you can vehemently oppose something, but you must do so through the process. Not through violence.

Even if I accept that premise, which I don’t, I’m not benefitting from UHC if I pay for private care. So… I guess it is possible not to benefit.

You are benefiting because it gives you an alternative. Say the company you work for crashes and you lose your insurance. You then can switch to free health care.

No, I’m not forcing them to pave my way because you said that we’re all free to leave.

Right. If you don’t want to pay taxes, other countries with lower taxation are available. What you don’t get to do is benefit from other people’s taxes without contributing; because that’s essentially stealing from other people.

 

[EphelDuath]

i·ro·ny:
–noun, plural -nies.

1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.

Yet, you didn’t actually respond to my point. Multi-payer health care might be unfair, but what you propose is much, much more unfair. At least under UHC, everybody can get medicine. In a laissez-faire paradise, people only get what they can blunt by themselves or through the charity of others.

 

[cynic]

no, not every working person in this country pays taxes- there is a minimum income level below which taxes are not paid

Noted. But how many people fall below that? If the middle class, the earners and taxpayers can only lose with government involved in healthcare and education, why do you think Democrats get half the popular vote?

 

[Oscarthecat]

Yet, you didn’t actually respond to my point. Multi-payer health care might be unfair, but what you propose is much, much more unfair. At least under UHC, everybody can get medicine. In a laissez-faire paradise, people only get what they can blunt by themselves or through the charity of others.

Wow, you still dont get what I was doing there- by advocating the other side’s position to refute what you had said, I was pointing out that you were falling out of sync with your pro-uhc cohorts. Its ok, cynic made a similar mistake a day or so ago.

So, to be clear, when I acted like I was objecting to a two tiered system, I was using a bit of sarcasm to point out that you had fallen out of sync with UHC purists.

 

[EphelDuath]

Wow, you still dont get what I was doing there- by advocating the other side’s position to refute what you had said, I was pointing out that you were falling out of sync with your pro-uhc cohorts. Its ok, cynic made a similar mistake a day or so ago.

So, to be clear, when I acted like I was objecting to a two tiered system, I was using a bit of sarcasm to point out that you had fallen out of sync with UHC purists.

Uh. Ok. I don’t particularly care. It’s not exactly a social movement.

 

[goofyjim]

I enjoy watching Oscar and Vern fillet UHC and giveaway drugs programs.

Wait a minute. Now you have a problem with pharmaceuticals giving away free drugs to the needy? That’s just plain ridiculous. It’s the way it should work if you want the government out of it.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Wait a minute. Now you have a problem with pharmaceuticals giving away free drugs to the needy? That’s just plain ridiculous. It’s the way it should work if you want the government out of it.

For once, I completely agree with you, Jim. But based on the comments bama was referring to, I think he was referring to Canada giving away drugs for free, not the phama companies.

 

[BamaRider]

Wait a minute. Now you have a problem with pharmaceuticals giving away free drugs to the needy? That’s just plain ridiculous. It’s the way it should work if you want the government out of it.

No, I don’t have a problem with them giving away *their *drugs, where I have a problem is a element in this country *demand *they give them away.

The effects of the “Great Society” in this country are now multi generational. You have people, beating down the doors of the drug companies demanding they give their products away, for no other reason then they want them.

By virture of just having a 65th birthday they think you are entitled to free drugs, which are not really “free.”

In the not so long ago, families took care of the aged, and thought nothing about it. It was just what you did. My parents, aunts, and uncles all helped take care of my grandparents, as they took care of their parents before them.

They took them to their doctor appt, pharmacy, and store. They would have no more thought about walking up and down the street with tin cups asking for contributions to help pay for their meds then anything.

They were able to to this becaue the govt pretty much left them alone. No such thing as social security, medicare. Back then people took care of their own, but that line of thinking is probably gone forever, nobody wants to be self reliant or responsible anymore.

Now most aged parents are shuffled off to nursing homes.

UHC would be a massive govt progarm, unseen in the likes of history on a scale that would boggle your mind. Why y’all think the govt could pull off such a monstrosity is crazy, nothing they have ever done was worked, unless you think social security and medicare are good programs and well run. LOL

In the end, it will be folks like me that will have to pay for this. In this country the top 50% of all wage earners pay 86% of all taxes, and the top 25% of that pay 96% of it. A working family with 3 kids making 30k pay virtually no tax, and in fact with the EIC get money back they never paid in. How much longer and how much more do you ask of these people before your break their backs? When ever something needs to be done, this is who they come to. The libs keep their followers in line by constantly telling them how the rich are getting over on them, and are not doing enough, when in fact the top 50% are the only ones doing anything. They no longer have to votes to protect themselves, and are helpless as a society demands more and more outta them each election cycle.

Now they are demanding that tax cuts be rolled back,“gettin over on us too long” is the mantra. Little do they know those tax cuts helped “rich” families like me. A retired firefighter, with a professional wife. I got up and went to work everyday for 26 years like most other “rich” people, that the left so villifies as getting fat off tax cuts.

The pyramid is upside down, and the people at the top are demanding more and more, and soon this whole contraption is gonna topple.

But some here feel entitled. A job is a birthright, so is healthcare, education, drugs, all the way to retirement. The govt will do that for you if you let it, because it buys votes.

They are less and less of us everyday, that teach their kids to be self reliant individuals.

I’m gonna kick and scream every step of the way when y’all try to drag me into UHC, because I know it won’t work, and will rob me of my economic freedom.

 

[Caesar517]

I’m gonna kick and scream every step of the way when y’all try to drag me into UHC, because I know it won’t work, and will rob me of my economic freedom.

I would be making more posts here but you, Oscar, and Vern have it covered.

 

[goofyjim]

No, I don’t have a problem with them giving away *their *drugs, where I have a problem is a element in this country *demand *they give them away.

The effects of the “Great Society” in this country are now multi generational. You have people, beating down the doors of the drug companies demanding they give their products away, for no other reason then they want them.

By virture of just having a 65th birthday they think you are entitled to free drugs, which are not really “free.”

In the not so long ago, families took care of the aged, and thought nothing about it. It was just what you did. My parents, aunts, and uncles all helped take care of my grandparents, as they took care of their parents before them.

They took them to their doctor appt, pharmacy, and store. They would have no more thought about walking up and down the street with tin cups asking for contributions to help pay for their meds then anything.

They were able to to this becaue the govt pretty much left them alone. No such thing as social security, medicare. Back then people took care of their own, but that line of thinking is probably gone forever, nobody wants to be self reliant or responsible anymore.

Now most aged parents are shuffled off to nursing homes.

UHC would be a massive govt progarm, unseen in the likes of history on a scale that would boggle your mind. Why y’all think the govt could pull off such a monstrosity is crazy, nothing they have ever done was worked, unless you think social security and medicare are good programs and well run. LOL

In the end, it will be folks like me that will have to pay for this. In this country the top 50% of all wage earners pay 86% of all taxes, and the top 25% of that pay 96% of it. A working family with 3 kids making 30k pay virtually no tax, and in fact with the EIC get money back they never paid in. How much longer and how much more do you ask of these people before your break their backs? When ever something needs to be done, this is who they come to. The libs keep their followers in line by constantly telling them how the rich are getting over on them, and are not doing enough, when in fact the top 50% are the only ones doing anything. They no longer have to votes to protect themselves, and are helpless as a society demands more and more outta them each election cycle.

Now they are demanding that tax cuts be rolled back,“gettin over on us too long” is the mantra. Little do they know those tax cuts helped “rich” families like me. A retired firefighter, with a professional wife. I got up and went to work everyday for 26 years like most other “rich” people, that the left so villifies as getting fat off tax cuts.

The pyramid is upside down, and the people at the top are demanding more and more, and soon this whole contraption is gonna topple.

But some here feel entitled. A job is a birthright, so is healthcare, education, drugs, all the way to retirement. The govt will do that for you if you let it, because it buys votes.

They are less and less of us everyday, that teach their kids to be self reliant individuals.

I’m gonna kick and scream every step of the way when y’all try to drag me into UHC, because I know it won’t work, and will rob me of my economic freedom.

But if the pharmaceuticals are not going to be charitable and give free medication and noone wants the government to provide for the disabled and no insurance company is in the business of charitable isnurance at affordable rates this leaves alot of uninsured people which I just hopes ends up bankrupting the system for everyone making it collapse, which it will because if it’s only there for those who have been fortunate not to have a disabling condition for life then I don’t see why it should go on at all.

 

[goofyjim]

It’s so easy to talk self reliance when you never had a disability hit before you were able to even work. I’ve checked around out of curiosity. No insurance company covers a preexisting condition which means go bankrupt with no government assistance. I suggest a little more compassion in addressing this. I suggest to friends random drug testing for those who are on benefits to make sure they are not using those benefits for illegal street drugs but the majority I know are in need of a helping hand and private corporations just don’t do this because their only concern is their profit. Shame, shame, shame.

 

[pathia]

It’s so easy to talk self reliance when you never had a disability hit before you were able to even work. I’ve checked around out of curiosity. No insurance company covers a preexisting condition which means go bankrupt with no government assistance. I suggest a little more compassion in addressing this. I suggest to friends random drug testing for those who are on benefits to make sure they are not using those benefits for illegal street drugs but the majority I know are in need of a helping hand and private corporations just don’t do this because their only concern is their profit. Shame, shame, shame.

As soon as I’m healthy enough to visit some lawyers, I’m starting the process of my third medical bankruptcy

 

[BamaRider]

It’s so easy to talk self reliance when you never had a disability hit before you were able to even work. I’ve checked around out of curiosity. No insurance company covers a preexisting condition which means go bankrupt with no government assistance. I suggest a little more compassion in addressing this. I suggest to friends random drug testing for those who are on benefits to make sure they are not using those benefits for illegal street drugs but the majority I know are in need of a helping hand and private corporations just don’t do this because their only concern is their profit. Shame, shame, shame.

Jim, I don’t have a problem helping such people. They need a place to come to so they can be looked after, but dragging me into UHC is a whole different thing.

The people unable to get healtcare insurance because of prexisting conditions should helped, no question about it. Now those that don’t have insurance simply because they don’t wanna pay for it, are another matter.

I don’t have any numbers, but I suggest much of this is just what I say it is, a bunch of left over hippies that want some kind of socialist uthopia. Baby boomers have been spoiled (which is my generation) all their lives, they live in world anybody that gets ahead is evil.

I want to see people in need helped, if a person can’t get healthcare because he is disabled or unable to work, doesn’t he already something for that? Does he not already have SSI disability and medicare? But I’m not sure on that, if not then he should come be looked after.

Perhaps the govt can work through a private carriers to cover these folks? I wouldn’t have any problem with such a progarm. Folks in between jobs can also sign up till they get back to work.

I’m sure millions of able bodied folks would line up to get in, running scams just like they do now, you just have to be diligent and weed them out.

That scenario and UHC care are NOT the same thing.

There is a difference in not be able to get healthcare, and just not wanting to pay for it.

 

[cynic]

In the not so long ago, families took care of the aged, and thought nothing about it. It was just what you did. My parents, aunts, and uncles all helped take care of my grandparents, as they took care of their parents before them.

They took them to their doctor appt, pharmacy, and store. They would have no more thought about walking up and down the street with tin cups asking for contributions to help pay for their meds then anything.

They were able to to this becaue the govt pretty much left them alone. No such thing as social security, medicare. Back then people took care of their own, but that line of thinking is probably gone forever, nobody wants to be self reliant or responsible anymore.

Now most aged parents are shuffled off to nursing homes.

So your parents lived with you when they could no longer work? What about the elderly who had no children. What was the average lifespan back then anyway, a lot lower maybe.

Oh and you knock social security but you do receive a pention from a government (or state) department run with taxpayers money don’t you.

UHC would be a massive govt progarm, unseen in the likes of history on a scale that would boggle your mind. Why y’all think the govt could pull off such a monstrosity is crazy, nothing they have ever done was worked, unless you think social security and medicare are good programs and well run. LOL
.

The original post was about universal health* insurance* if I’m not mistaken. There are plenty of alternatives to the state administering healthcare.

Now they are demanding that tax cuts be rolled back,“gettin over on us too long” is the mantra. Little do they know those tax cuts helped “rich” families like me. A retired firefighter, with a professional wife. I got up and went to work everyday for 26 years like most other “rich” people, that the left so villifies as getting fat off tax cuts.
.

As if getting up in the morning and holding down a job is something unique to the middle class and above.

But some here feel entitled. A job is a birthright, so is healthcare, education, drugs, all the way to retirement. The govt will do that for you if you let it, because it buys votes.

Education for children isn’t a birthright? How exactly do people become self-reliant without education. It seems like you don’t want to pay tax at all.

 

[Caesar517]

Education for children isn’t a birthright? How exactly do people become self-reliant without education. It seems like you don’t want to pay tax at all.

Education is NOT a right; it is a privilege to the child and a duty to the parents.

 

[Oscarthecat]

It’s so easy to talk self reliance when you never had a disability hit before you were able to even work. I’ve checked around out of curiosity. No insurance company covers a preexisting condition which means go bankrupt with no government assistance. I suggest a little more compassion in addressing this. I suggest to friends random drug testing for those who are on benefits to make sure they are not using those benefits for illegal street drugs but the majority I know are in need of a helping hand and private corporations just don’t do this because their only concern is their profit. Shame, shame, shame.

People, including the people who run big companies, have been conditioned since the “new deal” to believe that the government is the just arbiter of social responsibility.

Insurance companies are paticularly guilty of this because they benefit financially when the government assumes responsibility for the unprofitable portion of their customer base.

Think about it- if the government provided free cars to people who made less that 50k/yr, auto manufacters would market and sell only cars that appealed to people who make over 50k/ year. Cars would not be any differen, but Car prices would be artificially inflated, as would car profits because the companies would know that every person walking on their lot made at least 4000/month.

Eventually the car manufacturers would realize that they would make more money if they focused on people who made 100k per year. So, they would jack the prices up to put stress on those who made less than 100k, who would come to envy the people getting free cars. Eventually, someone would propose that everyone should get a free car because cars just cost too much.

But that hasn’t happened because the government hasn’t starts giving out free cars…

Get the governmnt out of health care and that will force the market to deal with these problems by lowering prices and increasing affordability.

 

[ribozyme]

People, including the people who run big companies, have been conditioned since the “new deal” to believe that the government is the just arbiter of social responsibility.

Insurance companies are paticularly guilty of this because they benefit financially when the government assumes responsibility for the unprofitable portion of their customer base.

Think about it- if the government provided free cars to people who made less that 50k/yr, auto manufacters would market and sell only cars that appealed to people who make over 50k/ year. Cars would not be any differen, but Car prices would be artificially inflated, as would car profits because the companies would know that every person walking on their lot made at least 4000/month.

Eventually the car manufacturers would realize that they would make more money if they focused on people who made 100k per year. So, they would jack the prices up to put stress on those who made less than 100k, who would come to envy the people getting free cars. Eventually, someone would propose that everyone should get a free car because cars just cost too much.

But that hasn’t happened because the government hasn’t starts giving out free cars…

Get the governmnt out of health care and that will force the market to deal with these problems by lowering prices and increasing affordability.

Don’t be a fool… free cars are not a good idea especially when one considers the finitude of fossil fuel. I think good public transportation is better (but that is even worse) because of the word “public” because it will be “socialized.”

 

[BamaRider]

So your parents lived with you when they could no longer work? What about the elderly who had no children. What was the average lifespan back then anyway, a lot lower maybe.

What difference does it make how long they lived? Just lemme ask you this-in the 1930s a nursing home was unheard off. When parents grew old, they came to live with their children, it was not unusual to see 3 generations in one house. They were not viewed as a burden, but as loving family members. Now I dunno how long they lived, or what they died from, but I can tell you this, their quality of life was good, surrounded by large families that cared and loved them.

And thats what the generations before us did, before we abandoned that line of thought for the nanny state.

As far as elderly with no children? One thing is for sure, you had to look really hard to find one that was a ward of the state. Somebody somewhere took them in, a sister, brother, niece, I know that is a foreign concept to folks who think the govt is the answer to your problems, but it is true.

My dad died suddelny in 1989, but my mother lived to the ripe old age of 82. Although she didn’t live with me (she had her own home) we took care of her. We paid someone to stay with her when none of us could be there. She often stayed at my home or my brother’s, we alternated weekends. She was mostly bedridden the last few months, and though my family was small, we always had somone to sit with her. She died peacefully at her home in her sleep.

The bible says you get special blessings for taking care of old folks, I can vouch for that. But many of my generation and later, ain’t got time for that.

Oh and you knock social security but you do receive a pention from a government (or state) department run with taxpayers money don’t you.

My pension is not run by the state, but politcians do have some influence on it. It is a seperate entity, with its own management, and heavily invested in the stock market. It is a lucrative pension, SS doesn’t come close. They took out 6% of my salary each paycheck, a lot less then SS garnished and with a much better monthy paycheck, so yeah, I laugh at SS. But I still hope it is there when I get 65.

As if getting up in the morning and holding down a job is something unique to the middle class and above.

No, but it is unique to alot of other people in this country. LOL. There are millions in this country who are not gonna get up and go to work, who for whatever reason, can’t be accountable to someone else for 8 hrs.

It seems like you don’t want to pay tax at all.

Pretty much! There are some things govt does well, like public safety and defense. But education and healthcare? Nah.

 

[BamaRider]

Don’t be a fool… free cars are not a good idea especially when one considers the finitude of fossil fuel. I think good public transportation is better (but that is even worse) because of the word “public” because it will be “socialized.”

Without sending a bunch of links, do you think the world is gonna run outta oil before ya get MY age? (52)

 

[Oscarthecat]

Don’t be a fool… free cars are not a good idea especially when one considers the finitude of fossil fuel. I think good public transportation is better (but that is even worse) because of the word “public” because it will be “socialized.”

Nice job!!
You took that in a direction that I wasn’t expecting at all!!!

So, based on your argument, the government giving away something “for free” is not a good idea when it involves a finite resource??

Healthcare requires finite resources, so you would be a fool to support giving it away for free.

Welcome to our side!!! Glad to have you on board.