Universal Health Insurance (2)

[Oscarthecat]

Without sending a bunch of links, do you think the world is gonna run outta oil before ya get MY age? (52)

Nope, because its going to take us at least that long before we get enough politicians to agree to let private industry pump oil from inside our own borders.

But that’s off topic…

 

[goofyjim]

Jim, I don’t have a problem helping such people. They need a place to come to so they can be looked after, but dragging me into UHC is a whole different thing.

The people unable to get healtcare insurance because of prexisting conditions should helped, no question about it. Now those that don’t have insurance simply because they don’t wanna pay for it, are another matter.

I don’t have any numbers, but I suggest much of this is just what I say it is, a bunch of left over hippies that want some kind of socialist uthopia. Baby boomers have been spoiled (which is my generation) all their lives, they live in world anybody that gets ahead is evil.

I want to see people in need helped, if a person can’t get healthcare because he is disabled or unable to work, doesn’t he already something for that? Does he not already have SSI disability and medicare? But I’m not sure on that, if not then he should come be looked after.

Perhaps the govt can work through a private carriers to cover these folks? I wouldn’t have any problem with such a progarm. Folks in between jobs can also sign up till they get back to work.

I’m sure millions of able bodied folks would line up to get in, running scams just like they do now, you just have to be diligent and weed them out.

That scenario and UHC care are NOT the same thing.

There is a difference in not be able to get healthcare, and just not wanting to pay for it.

And noone is dragging you into UHC. I consistently present ideas to keep covered those who legitimately cannot work. That involves being on Social Security disability and medicare which will be partly funded through tax dollars. It is a necessary program. Of course we can weed out those who abuse it but that is a small percentage.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Education is NOT a right; it is a privilege to the child and a duty to the parents.

you’re just going to start an argument about the difference between an “innate human right” and a “government entitlement program”

 

[Caesar517]

you’re just going to start an argument about the difference between an “innate human right” and a “government entitlement program”

Yeah, that always happens. Best saved for another pointlessly circular thread, I guess.

 

[goofyjim]

People, including the people who run big companies, have been conditioned since the “new deal” to believe that the government is the just arbiter of social responsibility.

Insurance companies are paticularly guilty of this because they benefit financially when the government assumes responsibility for the unprofitable portion of their customer base.

Think about it- if the government provided free cars to people who made less that 50k/yr, auto manufacters would market and sell only cars that appealed to people who make over 50k/ year. Cars would not be any differen, but Car prices would be artificially inflated, as would car profits because the companies would know that every person walking on their lot made at least 4000/month.

Eventually the car manufacturers would realize that they would make more money if they focused on people who made 100k per year. So, they would jack the prices up to put stress on those who made less than 100k, who would come to envy the people getting free cars. Eventually, someone would propose that everyone should get a free car because cars just cost too much.

But that hasn’t happened because the government hasn’t starts giving out free cars…

Get the governmnt out of health care and that will force the market to deal with these problems by lowering prices and increasing affordability.

Wishful thinking. They will never do anything that doesn’t turn a profit. Some people need medication and go on it before they are ever able to get insurance on a job continue to be unable to work and therefore cannot afford anything else. These are not all wasteful people we’re talking about. The majority did not ask for their illnesses. I only pray that none of you ever come down with something to wipe you out financially because then we would see how you would respond with the tables turned. Is it too large a price to pay to keep the disabled covered? People used to think that about the railroad system. But it was not profitable and if we didn’t have it gas prices would be even higher. So the government is doing us a service by running it even if it is funded by tax dollars from some who never use it. The same can be said for health insurance for the disabled.

 

[Oscarthecat]

It’s so easy to talk self reliance when you never had a disability hit before you were able to even work. I’ve checked around out of curiosity. No insurance company covers a preexisting condition which means go bankrupt with no government assistance. I suggest a little more compassion in addressing this. I suggest to friends random drug testing for those who are on benefits to make sure they are not using those benefits for illegal street drugs but the majority I know are in need of a helping hand and private corporations just don’t do this because their only concern is their profit. Shame, shame, shame.

You keep talking about disabled people like they are worthless, unable to contribute to society, and that if it wasn’t for the government taking care of them, they would all whither and die.
There are plenty of people who are disabled, and are extremely productive members of society.

For that matter, Jim, I don’t remember ever having said whether I have a disability. For all you know, there could be people on this side of the debate typing on their computer by blowing in a straw attached to their motorized chair.

I hope you’re sitting down, because this will probably blow your mind…
One of my pharmacists is a paraplegic and manages just fine.
One of my professors in college had early onset parkinson’s disease, and she struggled to get through every single one of her lectures for years before she retired.
My dad was disabled for the last 20 years of his life. His doctors told him that he would never be able to work again. Rather than sit around and tell everyone he was disabled, he chose to use his time to become a master carpenter and made most of the furniture in his house by hand.

Yes, there are some disabled people who are genuinely unable to work or develop marketable skills, but there are many disabled people who are told by the government that they cannot work if they want to keep their benefits, and others who have been convinced by themselves or those they depend upon that they have nothing to contribute to society.

I don’t advocate a system that convinces those in need that they are inherently unable to become productive members of society.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Wishful thinking. They will never do anything that doesn’t turn a profit. Some people need medication and go on it before they are ever able to get insurance on a job continue to be unable to work and therefore cannot afford anything else. These are not all wasteful people we’re talking about. The majority did not ask for their illnesses. I only pray that none of you ever come down with something to wipe you out financially because then we would see how you would respond with the tables turned. Is it too large a price to pay to keep the disabled covered? People used to think that about the railroad system. But it was not profitable and if we didn’t have it gas prices would be even higher. So the government is doing us a service by running it even if it is funded by tax dollars from some who never use it. The same can be said for health insurance for the disabled.

Jim, we’ve been over this already!!! Don’t you remember having this discussion just a few hundred posts ago???

Pharmaceutical companies give away free meds RIGHT NOW to those who can’t afford it!!!

I’m not saying that those with disabilities don’t need a hand up, I’m just saying that the government is the wrong group to be doing it.

 

[ribozyme]

Nice job!!
You took that in a direction that I wasn’t expecting at all!!!

So, based on your argument, the government giving away something “for free” is not a good idea when it involves a finite resource??

Healthcare requires finite resources, so you would be a fool to support giving it away for free.

Welcome to our side!!! Glad to have you on board.

But population control will help mitigate it and the potential impact on the environment.

Unlike you, I would never advocate depriving people of resources (such as health care) that will cause immense suffering. Unlike you, I will resist being indifferent to the needs of the unfortunate.

 

[cynic]

What difference does it make how long they lived? Just lemme ask you this-in the 1930s a nursing home was unheard off. When parents grew old, they came to live with their children, it was not unusual to see 3 generations in one house. They were not viewed as a burden, but as loving family members. Now I dunno how long they lived, or what they died from, but I can tell you this, their quality of life was good, surrounded by large families that cared and loved them.
.

And they didn’t live as long, many dying near the age of retirement possibly, and from ailments that could have been treated, even then, but for lack of money. Probably just accepted as a fact of life.

My dad died suddelny in 1989, but my mother lived to the ripe old age of 82. Although she didn’t live with me (she had her own home) we took care of her. We paid someone to stay with her when none of us could be there. She often stayed at my home or my brother’s, we alternated weekends. She was mostly bedridden the last few months, and though my family was small, we always had somone to sit with her. She died peacefully at her home in her sleep.
.

But she did receive social security to pay the household bills right. I mean you didn’t completely support her, like you’re implying other people should do. I hope this isn’t too personal.

My pension is not run by the state, but politcians do have some influence on it. It is a seperate entity, with its own management, and heavily invested in the stock market. It is a lucrative pension, SS doesn’t come close. They took out 6% of my salary each paycheck, a lot less then SS garnished and with a much better monthy paycheck, so yeah, I laugh at SS. But I still hope it is there when I get 65.
.

But the source of the investment comes from the taxpayer, and it isn’t simply your own saved earnings.

No, but it is unique to alot of other people in this country. LOL. There are millions in this country who are not gonna get up and go to work, who for whatever reason, can’t be accountable to someone else for 8 hrs.
.

Well since your welfare system has time limits now, they may be forced to at some point.

Pretty much! There are some things govt does well, like public safety and defense. But education and healthcare? Nah.

Little kids learning to read? Nah!
Who can be bothered with those sort of privilages.

 

[Oscarthecat]

There are some things govt does well, like public safety and defense.

Looks like BamaRider and I have found a point of contention

 

[Oscarthecat]

And they didn’t live as long, many dying near the age of retirement possibly, and from ailments that could have been treated, even then, but for lack of money. Probably just accepted as a fact of life.

What does length of life have to do with it- unless you just think old people are a burden. My wife and I already agreed that our parents would be able to move in with us if they ever want or need to, just as my grandmother lived with us when I was little.

But she did receive social security to pay the household bills right. I mean you didn’t completely support her, like you’re implying other people should do. I hope this isn’t too personal.

Are you seriously criticizing people for using the income they paid into their whole lives?
I don’t support continuing SS, but I don’t advocate taking away what people paid in, or fault them for collecting it.
You’d be better off just deleting that comment entirely.

Little kids learning to read? Nah!
Who can be bothered with those sort of privilages.

Well, lets see- biological parents, adoptive parents, foster parents, uncles, aunts, siblings, babysitters, cousins, second cousins, grandmas, grandpas, nice people, and private schools…

The government didn’t teach me how to read, and I manage just fine.

 

[goofyjim]

And the magical cure all to get the insurance companies to insure the disabled is get the government out of health care. I have a bridge for sale at a low price.

 

[goofyjim]

Jim, we’ve been over this already!!! Don’t you remember having this discussion just a few hundred posts ago???

Pharmaceutical companies give away free meds RIGHT NOW to those who can’t afford it!!!

I’m not saying that those with disabilities don’t need a hand up, I’m just saying that the government is the wrong group to be doing it.

It’s not like the government administers the healthcare. They only help pay for it when someone is unable. What makes you think that the insurance companies will suddenly miraculously stop worshipping th almighty dollar when the government withdraws? Guess what they won’t. They will still look at the profit margin and say it doesn’t pay.

 

[Caesar517]

But population control will help mitigate it and the potential impact on the environment.

Unlike you, I would never advocate depriving people of resources (such as health care) that will cause immense suffering. Unlike you, I will resist being indifferent to the needs of the unfortunate.

ribozyme, you are on a different page than us. We are speaking from the Christian perspective. Your utilitarian ethics are very different from Christianity. According to the Christian perspective:

Population control is blatant disrespect for the sanctity of life.

Minimizing earthly suffering is not the greatest good a person can do.

Publicly judging the hearts of others based on their resistance to something they firmly believe is counter-productive is a no-no.

 

[pathia]

Jim, we’ve been over this already!!! Don’t you remember having this discussion just a few hundred posts ago???

Pharmaceutical companies give away free meds RIGHT NOW to those who can’t afford it!!!

I’m not saying that those with disabilities don’t need a hand up, I’m just saying that the government is the wrong group to be doing it.

They ask for your W2’s, and that’s how they make the criteria. I (made) too much and didn’t qualify. Not everyone can get free meds from pharma companies, and they don’t have programs for all drugs. A good deal of my stuff can’t even be formulated in a regular pharmacy, I have to go to a compounding pharmacy, and those are usually independent small businesses that cannot give out charity, especially when the stuff is as expensive as my meds.

Most religious based charity, including the catholic church, consider the medications I take sinful, especially given my history. There’s no way I could solicit help from them, I won’t ask someone to go against their own beliefs to beg charity from them.

The only time I was really able to get plenty of free meds was when I was in school and they studied my fairly unique condition.

 

[cynic]

What does length of life have to do with it- unless you just think old people are a burden. My wife and I already agreed that our parents would be able to move in with us if they ever want or need to, just as my grandmother lived with us when I was little.
.

Financially they are a burden. Let’s see, you guys expect one family, possibly a sigle earner, to support their elderly parents, their children, themselves, pay for insurance for all of them, pay for private schools for the kids.

Are you seriously criticizing people for using the income they paid into their whole lives?
I don’t support continuing SS, but I don’t advocate taking away what people paid in, or fault them for collecting it.
You’d be better off just deleting that comment entirely.
.

The comment is directed at Bamarider, who doesn’t agree with social security, but receives a pention, the ulitimate source being the taxpayer who put up the capital.

Well, lets see- biological parents, adoptive parents, foster parents, uncles, aunts, siblings, babysitters, cousins, second cousins, grandmas, grandpas, nice people, and private schools…

The government didn’t teach me how to read, and I manage just fine.

nice for you.

 

[goofyjim]

They ask for your W2’s, and that’s how they make the criteria. I (made) too much and didn’t qualify. Not everyone can get free meds from pharma companies, and they don’t have programs for all drugs. A good deal of my stuff can’t even be formulated in a regular pharmacy, I have to go to a compounding pharmacy, and those are usually independent small businesses that cannot give out charity, especially when the stuff is as expensive as my meds.

Most religious based charity, including the catholic church, consider the medications I take sinful, especially given my history. There’s no way I could solicit help from them, I won’t ask someone to go against their own beliefs to beg charity from them.

The only time I was really able to get plenty of free meds was when I was in school and they studied my fairly unique condition.

Like I said earlier, charity with stipulations is no charity at all. If you needed meds and all other means were exhausted the Church should not have made judgements. They should be there to help the poor.

 

[BamaRider]

And they didn’t live as long, many dying near the age of retirement possibly, and from ailments that could have been treated, even then, but for lack of money. Probably just accepted as a fact of life.

I don’t want to get off topic, but the point I’m trying to make, it wasn’t that long ago, a aged parent in a nursing home was unheard of. We took care of our own families, we ddin’t expect or want the govt to do it. Coinciding with the rise of liberal thought so has the decline of this line of reasoning.

Then cynic said-

**Financially they are a burden. **Let’s see, you guys expect one family, possibly a sigle earner, to support their elderly parents, their children, themselves, pay for insurance for all of them, pay for private schools for the kids.

Yes I do. I expect children to take care of their aged parents. I realize that is a mostly unpopular stance nowdays, because folks will have all kinds of excuses lined up to avoid it Many of which you mentioned. This country is a hundred times richer then it was during the 1930s, and that generation took care of their aged. I blame a lot of this line of thinking on liberals and their premise govt is the answer.

The comment is directed at Bamarider, who doesn’t agree with social security, but receives a pention, the ulitimate source being the taxpayer who put up the capital.

My pension works like social security but only much better because the managers are outside of politics and invest our money in the private sector. If it was run like SS (which is mostly a shell game) I’d still be working.

But she did receive social security to pay the household bills right. I mean you didn’t completely support her, like you’re implying other people should do. I hope this isn’t too personal.

She did receive SSI, that didn’t go very far, but it was better than nothing. We used it to help take care of her, but mostly it was my brother, sister and I. We pooled our money, it just wasn’t that big a deal. I have seen first hand what happens when aged parents are abandoned by their children. Many live alone, trying to get by on SSI, they become ill, or to feeble to live by themselves any longer, so the kids sell off their assets and put them in a nursing home, and come by to see them on Mother and Father’s day. The nursing home takes over their SSI and medicare, and bascially they become wards of the state. Happens on the time.

The way we treat our elderly in this country is a bad thing, mostly because it is a inconvience or let the “govt do it.”

Well since your welfare system has time limits now, they may be forced to at some point.

you think that is a bad thing?

When talking about pub ed-

Little kids learning to read? Nah!
Who can be bothered with those sort of privilages

I suggest picking up a 3rd grade text book circa 1875 and thumb through it, then find the same current year. I’ve seen it firsthand. Not even close. What those kids learned in a one room school house, where the parents on the local level ran things, and held students and teachers accountable.

Also look at the the documents from 200 years ago. Their command of the lanquage, was so impressive. Read a newspaper from 1850. None of those people were taught in public schools. The system we have today was born in the 1930s or so. It has been a dismal failure, but that is whole nother thread.

But it ties in to UHC. The govt can’t educate and they sure as heck can’t run healthcare.

 

[Caesar517]

But it ties in to UHC. The govt can’t educate and they sure as heck can’t run healthcare.

I think we need to completely privitize the education industry. Most people today wouldn’t accept such a “radical” notion.

There are many things that the government can’t do well. I’ts no coincidence that the few things the government can do well are written in the Constitution. If only people would read it.

 

[Oscarthecat]

But population control will help mitigate it and the potential impact on the environment.

Unlike you, I would never advocate depriving people of resources (such as health care) that will cause immense suffering. Unlike you, I will resist being indifferent to the needs of the unfortunate.

Ok, so which step of your circular argument is “if you dont agree with UHC you must hate people and want them to die”?