Universal health insurance

[pathia]

Net, of course.

Both her situation and her income would be taken into account.

You still haven’t answered the problem of non-covered medical expenditures not counting towards my insurance cap. If they refuse to cover anything of mine, I’m never going to hit my cap, and if that’s what the basis of any sort of aid is, then I will continue to go bankrupt even after this plan was implemented. I don’t have have exact numbers, I simply stopped caring because they got so big, but I think around 75% of the expenses I got actually happened during when I have had insurance, so that’s 75% of my debt that wouldn’t even count towards a cap. Comes out to roughly 250k, or seven years of my income.

 

[whatevergirl]

Doctors of today, by and large (not all but most) are in healthcare I believe for the money.

We may have ‘nice’ doctors, but when it comes down to it, if you cannot pay for your visit, they’re not seeing you. I don’t believe this is wrong, but let me share a story that happened to my husband recently.

About a month ago, my husband went to the dr because of a nagging cough, and he took x-rays, diagnosed him with pneumonia and then gave him a script for antiobiotic. Last week, my husband’s cough was nowhere near better, he goes back…and the same dr runs more xrays, and gives him a different antiobiotic. Oh, now, he was diagnosed with bronchitis. Why did this dr charge my husband again? It’s not like 6 months had passed? Imagine going to get your brakes fixed, and a few weeks later, you realize that the brake place did not fix them, you go back, and they charge you again?? It typically doesn’t happen. But in the medical world, it does. And that has got to stop too. I would like to see reform, because I think it would stop doctors from getting rich off of misdiagnosing people, also.

Yes, mistakes happen, but the doc, in my humble opinion, should not have charged my insurance again for not getting it right the first time. I could see if my husband needed a battery of additional tests done, but really, my husband said it was like he never went the first time, and this guy ran the same tests again.

 

[whatevergirl]

You still haven’t answered the problem of non-covered medical expenditures not counting towards my insurance cap. If they refuse to cover anything of mine, I’m never going to hit my cap, and if that’s what the basis of any sort of aid is, then I will continue to go bankrupt even after this plan was implemented. I don’t have have exact numbers, I simply stopped caring because they got so big, but I think around 75% of the expenses I got actually happened during when I have had insurance, so that’s 75% of my debt that wouldn’t even count towards a cap. Comes out to roughly 250k, or seven years of my income.

I don’t know though pathia if universal healthcare means no underwriting. I don’t believe that the government, should universal healthcare come through soon, will be writing blank checks to any and all who are ill in this country. I take it to mean more that those who cannot afford basic healthcare, will be able to either afford it, or will be able to have free care, within reason. I don’t take it to mean that there will be no underwriting, unless the government becomes the determinant of who gets served and who doesn’t…wow, that would be very scary if the government starts turning into a make-shift insurance company.

I think there is a better way…and it’s for everyone to reduce their costs,and have that be mandated perhaps by the government.

 

[whatevergirl]

I didn’t mean to sound like universal healthcare wouldn’t be able to help you pathia–I realized that after pushing submit!

But,what I’m trying to say is that there will still be exclusions most likely, otherwise the plan will go broke. I take it more to mean that there will be better coverage for those who don’t currently have it under our current system, and more affordable, or free for prevenative care. I don’t see all care from soup to nuts being covered–there will still most likely be exclusions to the plan. But, you most likely will not have to saddle what you have been. Again,I am so sorry that you had to deal with that…have to deal with that.

 

[pathia]

I think there is a better way…and it’s for everyone to reduce their costs,and have that be mandated perhaps by the government.

There’s absolutely no way to lower the main cost under any free-market plan, I don’t speak of the main cost because it is for very TMI (too much information) reasons. I have been operated on for urological reasons almost a dozen times, that is the greatest majority of my expenses beyond the ‘typical’ and it is those that which they deny as being ‘transsexual’ related.

The only way anyone would ever cover the extreme expense of ‘cleaning’ up after the surgeries that were done to me as an infant, is if they were forced by the government. What happened to me and the continuing infections happens to far less than 1% of the population, so it’s not like this would change peoples premiums.

That is another reason it is not covered, because it is considered ‘corrective’ to a previous medical matter. The surgery the priests told my family to have me undergo has an extremely low success rate and this is published and known, so there are no grounds to sue etc. Also statue of limitations etc, I simply have no recourse but to continue damage control surgery after damage control surgery.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

As long as we have a system that relies on denying claims to sick people then the system will not work.

Right now, by going to a universal healthCARE system, we can eliminate medical claims on auto insurance (a profit center), workman’s compensation insurance medical (a profit center), health insurance for businesses (a profit center). All these costs that are paid by small businesses and then the small business that puts their own overhead and profit on top of that, depending on industry, can be 10-25%.

Fraud costs go away because their is no liability any more.
Billing costs go away. Doctors and nurses salaries will go down because they can either work in their profession for the government or get another another job in the private sector. Legal costs, tax costs, admin costs all go away. Everybody gets medical care, if you want ultra-super care outside the system, great, go pay for it outside the system.

I proved earlier the USA doesn’t have the best system by any yardstick and our current system is way too expensive and it is exclusionary. Unnecessary bankruptcy of hundreds of thousands of people annually is bordering on evil. What is there to like about the current system (unless you are Merck or Abbott Labs or GE any other pharm or equipment company)? Why is this hard to understand?

 

[whatevergirl]

As long as we have a system that relies on denying claims to sick people then the system will not work.

Right now, by going to a universal healthCARE system, we can eliminate medical claims on auto insurance (a profit center), workman’s compensation insurance medical (a profit center), health insurance for businesses (a profit center). All these costs that are paid by small businesses and then the small business that puts their own overhead and profit on top of that, depending on industry, can be 10-25%.

Fraud costs go away because their is no liability any more.
Billing costs go away. Doctors and nurses salaries will go down because they can either work in their profession for the government or get another another job in the private sector. Legal costs, tax costs, admin costs all go away. Everybody gets medical care, if you want ultra-super care outside the system, great, go pay for it outside the system.

I proved earlier the USA doesn’t have the best system by any yardstick and our current system is way too expensive and it is exclusionary. Unnecessary bankruptcy of hundreds of thousands of people annually is bordering on evil. What is there to like about the current system (unless you are Merck or Abbott Labs or GE any other pharm or equipment company)? Why is this hard to understand?

Hi Ted–I’m curious, why do you think fraud costs would go away? Why would liability go away if there is universal healthcare? There would still be a need for insurance carriers…the government is not going to underwrite and take care of claims…they will still need the insurance industry to a degree.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

The answer to greed is not to forcibly take from those we feel are greedy- Jesus Christ was not Robin Hood. If you want to evoke meaningful change, then call others to charity from the goodness of their own hearts-don’t force them to contribute to a government system they disagree with, and which will only ultimately make them more callous toward the poor.

with this logic, lets keep abortion legal and change peoples hearts. if they are forced to not have an abortion, they will be more callous to the unborn.

giving to the poor is not an option, it’s an obligation. we do so because it is the just thing to do. just like protecting innocent life or providing affordable health care for all.

Originally Posted by Dee Dee King
the catholic teaching on this issue is each according to his own need. basically, we are our brothers keeper and there is an obligation to protect the dignity of the family. this would include providing the means for families to afford health care.

You are confusing Karl Marx with Jesus Christ.

I suggest you read the Gospels and the Epistles of Paul more carefully.

so we are not our brother’s keeper? we don’t have an obligation to protect the dignity of the family? we shouldn’t support a system that provides affordable health care?

you obviously put your political party ahead of what the church teaches about our obligation for the poor.

1867 The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are “sins that cry to heaven”: the blood of Abel,139 the sin of the Sodomites,140 the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt,141 **the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,142 injustice to the wage earner.**143

obviously, this teaching doesn’t fit nicely within the republican party platform.

 

[Oscarthecat]

As long as we have a system that relies on denying claims to sick people then the system will not work.

This claim makes for a good sniping point, but it distorts the truth a bit, and makes it appear that insurance companies are rolling in windfall profits from denying claims. The fact is that if you paid $10,000 dollars in premiums to your insurance company, and then went to the hospital and ran up $100,000 in bills, which the insurance company denied 50% (or $50,000) or even 90% (and paid $10,000), they still are losing money on you, or breaking even at best.

The primary revenue channels for insurance companies are through the premiums paid by the vast majority of us who have relatively low health care costs and through interest and investment revenue made with the insurance companies’ financial holdings.

The rest of your comments really frighten me if you believe what you’re saying…

Fraud costs go away because their is no liability any more.

No liability anymore??? So how is the medical field held accountable? If they remove my good kidney instead of my bad kidney then I have no recourse???

That’s not a good argument for NHC-I would suggest you not broadcast that too much if you want people to sign up.

Billing costs go away.

No they don’t-we’re just billing the government now-a government which is, by the way, famous for its ability to create useless paperwork.

Doctors and nurses salaries will go down because they can either work in their profession for the government or get another another job in the private sector.

So you think it is a GOOD thing to lower wages on the very people you expect to heal you??? I thought that lowering wages was generally considered a bad thing??? I don’t know about you, but I don’t want my doctor to go on a wage strike the night that I need an emergency operation. What if the government arbitrarily elected to lower your wages because they thought you made too much??

Legal costs, tax costs, admin costs all go away.

The government is the mother of all legal, tax, and administrative bureaucracies. UHC will be mired in all of these–

-legal: instead of claims being denied, treatment will be denied- you don’t think lawyers will be all over that?
-tax: this is FUNDED by taxes- it is a gigantic tax cost!!! what are you even talking about??
-admin costs??? anyone working in a hospital that doesn’t directly treat patients (doctors, techs, nurses) or contribute to patient care (laundry, sanitation, food prep) is an Administrator in one way or another. Are you going to fire all those people?? No, they’re going to keep their job-we’ll probably need more of them.

Everybody gets medical care, if you want ultra-super care outside the system, great, go pay for it outside the system.

So you’re OK with the idea that “ultra-super care” is only available to those who can afford it??? How, specifically, do you define “ultra-super care?” I know that if my child’s life is on the line, I want “ultra-super care.”

Is is really fair of you to promote a system that you know will deliberately restrict your “ultra-super care” to the rich???

Unnecessary bankruptcy of hundreds of thousands of people annually is bordering on evil.

How do you justify the bankruptcy you’re imposing on all the health care workers whose income you intend to restrict or remove?

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Hi Ted–I’m curious, why do you think fraud costs would go away? Why would liability go away if there is universal healthcare? There would still be a need for insurance carriers…the government is not going to underwrite and take care of claims…they will still need the insurance industry to a degree.

No need for insurance if everyone has coverage. No medical fraud if you go to the doctor if you are sick, no pay-offs, no liabilities. Medical insurance is eliminated. All you do is go to the doctor. No paperwork, no claim forms, no deductibles, no co-insurance, no billing. HealthCARE, instead of the layers and layers of costs added to insurance billable items to cover things that are not covered. The military equivilent is paying $400 for a hammer because you can’t bill for the screwdriver and all the nuts, bolts, washers, and freight plus overhead, wining and dining and profits
Healthcare facilities charge $4 for a tylenol , get paid $2 and bill the consumer for the other $2. They have to cover all the costs at inflated rates, so everything costs multiples of 2 or more times just to cover all things I listed, but also all the insurance costs (Malpractice), and bad debt expenses.

Take all the overhead, profit, administation, fraud, legal, accounting out and all you have is healthcare. Doctors, nurses work for the government. You get sick, you go to the doctor, no strings, no costs. Research can be done for research’s benefit, not only if there is a clear way to make a profitable machine or pill.

In healthcare, imagine what we could do if we could we could eliminate all the paperwork and endless forms, alot just to avoid getting sued?

 

[whatevergirl]

This claim makes for a good sniping point, but it distorts the truth a bit, and makes it appear that insurance companies are rolling in windfall profits from denying claims. The fact is that if you paid $10,000 dollars in premiums to your insurance company, and then went to the hospital and ran up $100,000 in bills, which the insurance company denied 50% (or $50,000) or even 90% (and paid $10,000), they still are losing money on you, or breaking even at best.

The primary revenue channels for insurance companies are through the premiums paid by the vast majority of us who have relatively low health care costs and through interest and investment revenue made with the insurance companies’ financial holdings.

The rest of your comments really frighten me if you believe what you’re saying…

No liability anymore??? So how is the medical field held accountable? If they remove my good kidney instead of my bad kidney then I have no recourse???

That’s not a good argument for NHC-I would suggest you not broadcast that too much if you want people to sign up.

No they don’t-we’re just billing the government now-a government which is, by the way, famous for its ability to create useless paperwork.

So you think it is a GOOD thing to lower wages on the very people you expect to heal you??? I thought that lowering wages was generally considered a bad thing??? I don’t know about you, but I don’t want my doctor to go on a wage strike the night that I need an emergency operation. What if the government arbitrarily elected to lower your wages because they thought you made too much??

The government is the mother of all legal, tax, and administrative bureaucracies. UHC will be mired in all of these–

-legal: instead of claims being denied, treatment will be denied- you don’t think lawyers will be all over that?
-tax: this is FUNDED by taxes- it is a gigantic tax cost!!! what are you even talking about??
-admin costs??? anyone working in a hospital that doesn’t directly treat patients (doctors, techs, nurses) or contribute to patient care (laundry, sanitation, food prep) is an Administrator in one way or another. Are you going to fire all those people?? No, they’re going to keep their job-we’ll probably need more of them.

So you’re OK with the idea that “ultra-super care” is only available to those who can afford it??? How, specifically, do you define “ultra-super care?” I know that if my child’s life is on the line, I want “ultra-super care.”

Is is really fair of you to promote a system that you know will deliberately restrict your “ultra-super care” to the rich???

How do you justify the bankruptcy you’re imposing on all the health care workers whose income you intend to restrict or remove?

You make excellent points.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

I’m sorry if I frighten you. You are afraid of changing from our current system that rewards greed and fraud. Too many people that are honest hard working people get busted.

My family has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on healthcare over the years while others have spent millions. I have a niece that was very premature and she cost a million dollars. Her mom and dad are still paying on that 10 years later. Why?

Why do people have to pay for any of this? We deserve so much better. Our healthcare system stinks and needs to be reformed.

 

[whatevergirl]

No need for insurance if everyone has coverage. No medical fraud if you go to the doctor if you are sick, no pay-offs, no liabilities. Medical insurance is eliminated. All you do is go to the doctor. No paperwork, no claim forms, no deductibles, no co-insurance, no billing. HealthCARE, instead of the layers and layers of costs added to insurance billable items to cover things that are not covered. The military equivilent is paying $400 for a hammer because you can’t bill for the screwdriver and all the nuts, bolts, washers, and freight plus overhead, wining and dining and profits
Healthcare facilities charge $4 for a tylenol , get paid $2 and bill the consumer for the other $2. They have to cover all the costs at inflated rates, so everything costs multiples of 2 or more times just to cover all things I listed, but also all the insurance costs (Malpractice), and bad debt expenses.

Take all the overhead, profit, administation, fraud, legal, accounting out and all you have is healthcare. Doctors, nurses work for the government. You get sick, you go to the doctor, no strings, no costs. Research can be done for research’s benefit, not only if there is a clear way to make a profitable machine or pill.

In healthcare, imagine what we could do if we could we could eliminate all the paperwork and endless forms, alot just to avoid getting sued?

Where does the money come to pay the claims? The government? Insurance companies have reinsurers to back them up as well…so, where would all the money come to take care of all the healthcare claims? Who is administering it? Government workers? Universal healthcare will not eliminate insurance companies. The government will just have more of a hand in the management of your healthcare. The government will not turn into an insurance agency for all…it will merely manage the process, and put laws in place to allow everyone to get ‘free’ healthcare. Nothing is free though. To do what you propose Ted, would cost taxpayers a lot more money…who will saddle that burden? Probably the same people who can’t afford healthcare…so, there is a better way…it’s not having the gov’t turn into an underwriting and claims paying agency, though. If you think there are problems with healthcare now…yikes…

 

[whatevergirl]

I’m sorry if I frighten you. You are afraid of changing from our current system that rewards greed and fraud. Too many people that are honest hard working people get busted.

My family has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on healthcare over the years while others have spent millions. I have a niece that was very premature and she cost a million dollars. Her mom and dad are still paying on that 10 years later. Why?

Why do people have to pay for any of this? We deserve so much better. Our healthcare system stinks and needs to be reformed.

It does, I agree-but reform needs to make sense, and be better. Not just robbing Peter to pay Paul. All of the valves of the sinking ship needs to be plugged up…not just a few…it might seem like the ship is back on course, but it will eventually sink.

 

[Oscarthecat]

with this logic, lets keep abortion legal and change peoples hearts. if they are forced to not have an abortion, they will be more callous to the unborn.

or, said another way, the legality of abortion would be irrelevant if people really understood how evil it really is. I agree that abortion should be illegal, but I also know that it is hearts and minds, not laws and lawyers, that create meaningful change. Hopefully, abortion will be illegal again one day, but I think it will be long after that when the evil of abortion is universally likened to infanticide, genocide, or some other unspeakable evil.

giving to the poor is not an option, it’s an obligation. we do so because it is the just thing to do. just like protecting innocent life or providing affordable health care for all. so we are not our brother’s keeper? we shouldn’t support a system that provides affordable health care?

I agree with everything you said. Where you go off the deep end is in believing that a)universal health care is the best way to achieve these values and b) that you have the right to FORCE your neighbor through taxation and the destruction of the free market to live according to your values.

we don’t have an obligation to protect the dignity of the family?

sure we do, but I don’t agree that UHC actually does protect the dignity of the family. Neither, for that matter, does welfare. Hand-outs don’t protect dignity-they strip people of dignity and relegate generations of the poor to a culture of dependence.

you obviously put your political party ahead of what the church teaches about our obligation for the poor.obviously, this teaching doesn’t fit nicely within the republican party platform.

The Church teaches VALUES, not the MEANS to realize those values. Government programs and the force of taxation are not the only way to live Christian Values. In fact, I would argue that government programs, like UHC, violate the Catholic Social Teaching Value of Subsidiarity-

Jesus never told us to rely on the government to serve the poor. He told us to get in there and do it ourselves. Also, as I recall, He was not a member of any political party.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Clearly many of you have been brainwashed by the republican talking points. How many more lawsuits will it take to convince you? All because of the profit motive and everybody has to get a cut. Liability, overhead, bad debts, insurance, legal, accounting all gone. That is the true MIRE.

Forget the MIRE and let’s start to ADMIRE our healthCARE system.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Why do people have to pay for any of this? We deserve so much better. Our healthcare system stinks and needs to be reformed.

People have to pay for healthcare because it costs money.

Healthcare workers need salaries for their own families, health care equipment is complex to design and build, it is difficult to transport, use, and repair. I could go on with healthcare expenses, but I’m sure you get the idea.

Those costs won’t go away. People will trade their medical bills for tax costs. Sure, the minority of people with high health care costs like your’s will pay less in taxes than they would have in health care costs, but those expenses are still there, and you’re simply pushing your expenses off on the rest of society. Do you think that is fair???

If you think it is fair, then why isn’t it fair for everyone to get free housing, free cars, free clothes, free food??? All of those things are necessary in our society too- is it fair for me to expect my neighbor to pay for my new car? Is it right for me to expect you to pay for my new shoes?

No, of course not. We all need to take personal responsibility for our lives and, when necessary, depend on the charity of others. Charity is only charity when it is freely given. UHC is not freely given-therefore it is not charity-it is stealing through taxation using government force.

If someone asks me for money to help them, I freely give it. I am not as compassionate toward someone who tries to ROB me.

I agree that our system is imperfect, but I don’t believe that UHC is the solution.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

People have to pay for healthcare because it costs money.

Healthcare workers need salaries for their own families, health care equipment is complex to design and build, it is difficult to transport, use, and repair. I could go on with healthcare expenses, but I’m sure you get the idea.

Those costs won’t go away. People will trade their medical bills for tax costs. Sure, the minority of people with high health care costs like your’s will pay less in taxes than they would have in health care costs, but those expenses are still there, and you’re simply pushing your expenses off on the rest of society. Do you think that is fair???

If you think it is fair, then why isn’t it fair for everyone to get free housing, free cars, free clothes, free food??? All of those things are necessary in our society too- is it fair for me to expect my neighbor to pay for my new car? Is it right for me to expect you to pay for my new shoes?

No, of course not. We all need to take personal responsibility for our lives and, when necessary, depend on the charity of others. Charity is only charity when it is freely given. UHC is not freely given-therefore it is not charity-it is stealing through taxation using government force.

If someone asks me for money to help them, I freely give it. I am not as compassionate toward someone who tries to ROB me.

I agree that our system is imperfect, but I don’t believe that UHC is the solution.

Like I stated earlier, people want to assign a right (i.e. freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and so on - these do not have physical cost) to something that has physical cost.

 

[pathia]

Those costs won’t go away. People will trade their medical bills for tax costs. Sure, the minority of people with high health care costs like your’s will pay less in taxes than they would have in health care costs, but those expenses are still there, and you’re simply pushing your expenses off on the rest of society. Do you think that is fair???

Is it fair that I can’t afford food, clothing or housing because of my medical bills that insurance won’t cover? Is it fair that I have lived out of my car, and in homeless shelters because I couldn’t afford rent for my medical bills?

All I have is my health, and it is exceedingly poor. Health comes first for me, even before shelter and food, because if I’m not healthy, I can’t live, I can’t keep anything down, or even eat.

How is it right that an insurance company denies me surgery to fix an infected part of my body? The only way they would cover it is if I let it deteriorate to the point I got sepsis or gangrene from it, how insane is that?

This isn’t about little things that are ‘optional’. These are conditions that can and will eventually KILL me, and they deny them, consistently. I shouldn’t have to rely on charity to just be ALIVE. That’s insane.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Clearly many of you have been brainwashed by the republican talking points. How many more lawsuits will it take to convince you? All because of the profit motive and everybody has to get a cut. Liability, overhead, bad debts, insurance, legal, accounting all gone. That is the true MIRE.

Forget the MIRE and let’s start to ADMIRE our healthCARE system.

Maybe I’m not making myself clear.

As much as I ADMIRE your values, I don’t believe that your proposed Universal HealtCARE System will really achieve the goals you seek.

I don’t believe that it will solve any of the problems you find in our current system.

I do believe that UHC violates christian values because it forces people to participate in a government program that attempts to approximate goals which would be better achieved if people acted more charitably toward one another.

The problem is not the system, it is the lack of charity of the people involved in the system. It is impossible to force people to be charitable toward one another.

No government program can make up for the lack of christian charity in society. Such efforts usually make individuals less charitable toward one another. The only way to make lasting changes in society is to inspire individuals to christian charity toward their fellow man.