Universal health insurance

[Oscarthecat]

Or just shunned them out of the city and had them form their own colonies like in Jesus’ time. That worked right good, didn’t it?

And when that happened the government in Jesus’ time did nothing, while private individuals and those in the churchwent into those colonies to serve the sick and dying- without the help of any government.

Your point supports my position that government is not the answer.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Physicians

Nearly one of three physicians say it’s necessary to game the health care system to provide high quality medical care. Journal of the American Medical Association (2000)

More than one of three physicians says patients have asked physicians to deceive third-party payers to help the patients obtain coverage for medical services in the last year. Journal of the American Medical Association (2000)

One of 10 physicians has reported medical signs or symptoms a patient didn’t have in order to help the patient secure coverage for needed treatment or services in the last year. Journal of the American Medical Association (2000)

insurancefraud.org/stats.htm

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Although no precise dollar amount can be determined, some authorities contend that insurance fraud constitutes a $100-billion-a-year problem. The United States Goverment Accountability Office (GAO) estimates that $1 out of every $7 spent on Medicare is lost to fraud and abuse and that in 1998 alone, Medicare lost nearly $12 billion to fraudulent or unnecessary claims [1].

quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/insfraud.html

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Aren’t you supposed to be out starting a business, so you can astonish the rest of us with your managerial skills and economic wisdom?

And you have the unmitigated gall to chastise people for personal attacks?

Hypocrisy much?

 

[Oscarthecat]

It’s covered in every single country in the world that has a UHC or single payer system. Which is why my long term plan is simply to emigrate to canada. That’s why Washington is my first move. This country has showed me almost nothing but hatred, discrimination, violence, even an attempted rape. I have no loyalty towards it anymore. The only time I get solace or sympathy outside of my circle of friends is anonymously online by people like those here.

So you have no loyalty to the very country and government you expect to help you because you feel it has failed you? Yet you are still turning toward it as the solution? Yet in the same statement you admit that the only charity you see comes from your friends and the kindness of good strangers?

I think you’re coming around to my point of view, you just haven’t realized it yet!

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/insur.htm

Just a reminder that not only the doctors and patients out to defraud insurance companies, but scammers are preying on the old selling non-existent insurance.

Why can’t grandma just work 2 jobs to pay for her health insurance?

 

[Oscarthecat]

Although no precise dollar amount can be determined, some authorities contend that insurance fraud constitutes a $100-billion-a-year problem. The United States Goverment Accountability Office (GAO) estimates that $1 out of every $7 spent on Medicare is lost to fraud and abuse and that in 1998 alone, Medicare lost nearly $12 billion to fraudulent or unnecessary claims [1].

quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/insfraud.html

UHC will have its fair share of fraud. Just like welfare, foodstamps, and taxes.

 

[vern_humphrey]

And you have the unmitigated gall to chastise people for personal attacks?

Hypocrisy much?

Aren’t you supposed to be working for him?

 

[pathia]

So you have no loyalty to the very country and government you expect to help you because you feel it has failed you? Yet you are still turning toward it as the solution? Yet in the same statement you admit that the only charity you see comes from your friends and the kindness of good strangers?

I think you’re coming around to my point of view, you just haven’t realized it yet!

Would you have any loyalty to someone that regularly beat you, and then said that you should be happy that you have the freedom to be beaten? That’s what it feels like.

I do not expect the government to ever help me. Not in this country, no, this thread has made it abundantly clear that I’m simply not going to cut it here, so I should obviously just leave. I think Vern’s MSA plan is a pretty good one, and could eventually pass here, but I will likely already be dead by the time it goes through. My bones are in the state of a seventy year old, and I’m 28. I will be going to a specialist soon to see about an artificial hip.

The last time I relied on charity in the real world I was kicked out of a homeless shelter for violating the law, what was the law I violated? Using the restroom. I do not even expect charity in a charity house anymore. If I am given it, I am given it in a backhanded way, as if I am some fraudster, or just an outright thief.

Why should I continue to put up with that, really? None of this happened in government programs, this was all done by people working out of the ‘goodness’ of their heart.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Why can’t grandma just work 2 jobs to pay for her health insurance

My wife’s grandma DOES have two jobs-and both carry good benefits!!! We can’t covince her to quit because she says it is undignified not to be self sufficient!!

How’s THAT for irony??

 

[whatevergirl]

UHC will have its fair share of fraud. Just like welfare, foodstamps, and taxes.

Exactly. As it stands, there is fraud with welfare, taxes, and social security…this will be another thing where people will try to hedge around it, and cheat the system. The system isn’t going to eliminate fraud.

No one has answered my question…who will be approving coverages? Who will be paying claims, and how will they be paid? Why do some of the posters here suppose that insurance carriers will be eliminated if we have UHC? The government does not have anywhere near the amount of money needed to fund insurance medical claims for an entire country. I can see them working with private carriers to make the system better and more affordable…and also available for everyone, but I get the sense that some posters here think the government will act as the insurers? From what I have been reading, the proposal is not to mirror Canada’s system of UHC. (I have marketed to Canada before, always forgetting they have no need for medical healthcare providers (brokers) but they still have a need for life insurance, long term dis and std, and dental that the government does not manage)

 

[Oscarthecat]

No one has answered my question…who will be approving coverages? Who will be paying claims, and how will they be paid? Why do some of the posters here suppose that insurance carriers will be eliminated if we have UHC?

Most proposals are similar to medicare and medicaid at the level of benefits determination- check the right boxes, you get coverage for specific procedures that are not decided upon by you and your doctor, but by bureaucrats.

Contrary to popular belief, claims will be denied under UHC- there will be people with legitimate needs who cannot get treatment for many reasons:

some faceless bureaucrat didn’t get the right form with the right boxes checked,

because some politician 2000 miles away didn’t vote for the right bill because they made a deal with their buddy down the hall to get more bridges in their county,

or because some lobbyist convinced enough bureaucrats that the government shouldn’t fund their competitor’s new medicine or machine.

**To save everyone a lot of frenzied typing, I agree that these problems all exist in our current system- UHC and the current system are equally bad. **

The government does not have anywhere near the amount of money needed to fund insurance medical claims for an entire country.

One of the biggest proposals to fund UHC right now is to either impose a “windfall profits” tax on energy companies, or to develop a system of taxation based on carbon credit exchange which would generate revenue for the government.

Whatever you think of energy companies, the bottom line is that a tax on them is going to be felt first at the gas pumps-and then with everything else. Like all taxes on the rich, the people hurt most by it would be the poor.

I don’t have enough Tylenol on hand to start explaining the whole carbon credit tax scheme- but in the end, businesses would be punished for, uh, global warming, and the tax burden would trickle down to the rest of us through price increases, wage cuts, and job layoffs.

It is worth noting also that, like the current system, things will inevitably get more expensive- and we will all end up paying for it.

Those $700 toilet seats won’t be restricted to the military applications anymore-they will be available for everyone at hospitals nationwide.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Would you have any loyalty to someone that regularly beat you, and then said that you should be happy that you have the freedom to be beaten? That’s what it feels like.

I do not expect the government to ever help me. Not in this country, no, this thread has made it abundantly clear that I’m simply not going to cut it here, so I should obviously just leave. I think Vern’s MSA plan is a pretty good one, and could eventually pass here, but I will likely already be dead by the time it goes through. My bones are in the state of a seventy year old, and I’m 28. I will be going to a specialist soon to see about an artificial hip.

The last time I relied on charity in the real world I was kicked out of a homeless shelter for violating the law, what was the law I violated? Using the restroom. I do not even expect charity in a charity house anymore. If I am given it, I am given it in a backhanded way, as if I am some fraudster, or just an outright thief.

Why should I continue to put up with that, really? None of this happened in government programs, this was all done by people working out of the ‘goodness’ of their heart.

Again, Pathia, I see that your life is very difficult, and that you have been treated poorly in many ways by many people who should have done the right thing.

But to keep back on point, you have said that there are states where insurance covers your condition. If we switched to a national health care plan, and it didn’t cover your condition, those states would no longer cover you.

THere are no guarantees that every health problem will be covered under UHC, or that every treatement for the health problems covered will be provided.

**The point is that we should all want to have MORE options, not FEWER options. Putting healthcare under a single payer or bureaucracy ultimately gives us all FEWER choices.The very act of turning to another state or even another country because they provide the care you seek is participation in the free market. **

Think about it this way-if the ENTIRE WORLD was covered by a single payer health care program, and it didn’t cover your illness, then where would you go? You would be on the front lines, and so would I, fighting to get rid of the single payer system and open the free market sytem again.

 

[whatevergirl]

Again, Pathia, I see that your life is very difficult, and that you have been treated poorly in many ways by many people who should have done the right thing.

But to keep back on point, you have said that there are states where insurance covers your condition. If we switched to a national health care plan, and it didn’t cover your condition, those states would no longer cover you.

THere are no guarantees that every health problem will be covered under UHC, or that every treatement for the health problems covered will be provided.

**The point is that we should all want to have MORE options, not FEWER options. Putting healthcare under a single payer or bureaucracy ultimately gives us all FEWER choices.The very act of turning to another state or even another country because they provide the care you seek is participation in the free market. **

Think about it this way-if the ENTIRE WORLD was covered by a single payer health care program, and it didn’t cover your illness, then where would you go? You would be on the front lines, and so would I, fighting to get rid of the single payer system and open the free market sytem again.

This is very true. Not speaking for pathia, I think that the claims have been denied, pathia thinks …possibly because the private carriers are discriminating against illnesses related to sexual orientation/lifestyle/identity. (or could be a result of…) The government could help with legislation to make that that doesn’t occur at the private sector level, but it will not be an overnight correction.

 

[pathia]

This is very true. Not speaking for pathia, I think that the claims have been denied, pathia thinks …possibly because the private carriers are discriminating against illnesses related to sexual orientation/lifestyle/identity. (or could be a result of…) The government could help with legislation to make that that doesn’t occur at the private sector level, but it will not be an overnight correction.

Most companies are perfectly willing and actively tout their lack of discrimination against folks like me. I think it’s over 90% of the Fortune 500. I have a job with one of those now, but they still use private insurance, they are not self-insured, so I have no option. No matter how liberal or accepting the company is, it doesn’t matter if the only insurance provider that will cover me, will pay for anything at all.

There is no way to cover me and make a profit. There is no reason ever for a for-profit company to have any interest in ever covering me. Ergo, there will never be a freemarket solution to people as unhealthy as me. There simply isn’t a way to make money off of me. I think the total medical debt I have racked up is over a million dollars. Sure, a great majority of that has been written off, but that’s just it, it was written off. That’s money lost.

There is no company in the world that would in its good business mind offer me insurance, why would they? I don’t blame them. I am uninsurable as someone who is a unrecovered alcoholic and has been busted for drunk driving a few dozen times. It just isn’t worth it.

How do you provide a freemarket solution, to a person who is inherently unprofitable? Answer: You can’t. Ergo, I need government intervention of SOME kind.

It’s not a THINK in regards to discrimination. I get rejection letters that outright state "Dear so and so, we apologize, but we will not provide you coverage due to the following conditions: Transgenderism/transsexualism.

It’s not a QUESTION. It is pure and simple fact.

 

[whatevergirl]

Most companies are perfectly willing and actively tout their lack of discrimination against folks like me. I think it’s over 90% of the Fortune 500. I have a job with one of those now, but they still use private insurance, they are not self-insured, so I have no option. No matter how liberal or accepting the company is, it doesn’t matter if the only insurance provider that will cover me, will pay for anything at all.

There is no way to cover me and make a profit. There is no reason ever for a for-profit company to have any interest in ever covering me. Ergo, there will never be a freemarket solution to people as unhealthy as me. There simply isn’t a way to make money off of me. I think the total medical debt I have racked up is over a million dollars. Sure, a great majority of that has been written off, but that’s just it, it was written off. That’s money lost.

There is no company in the world that would in its good business mind offer me insurance, why would they? I don’t blame them. I am uninsurable as someone who is a unrecovered alcoholic and has been busted for drunk driving a few dozen times. It just isn’t worth it.

How do you provide a freemarket solution, to a person who is inherently unprofitable? Answer: You can’t. Ergo, I need government intervention of SOME kind.

It’s not a THINK in regards to discrimination. I get rejection letters that outright state "Dear so and so, we apologize, but we will not provide you coverage due to the following conditions: Transgenderism/transsexualism.

It’s not a QUESTION. It is pure and simple fact.

We’ll get there someday, pathia…I don’t think we’re long for seeing reform in that regard. But, for now, you are right…you do need help beyond the system that is currently available.

 

[Oscarthecat]

This is very true. Not speaking for pathia, I think that the claims have been denied, pathia thinks …possibly because the private carriers are discriminating against illnesses related to sexual orientation/lifestyle/identity. (or could be a result of…) The government could help with legislation to make that that doesn’t occur at the private sector level, but it will not be an overnight correction.

You are right that local and state governments could help by providing incentives to encourage businesses to cover Pathia’s condition- and that has happened in 3 states.

What I’m pointing out is that only 3 state governments have seen fit to pass legislation in favor of Pathia’s condition- it seems to me that, on the national level, those 3 states are vastly outnumbered by the 47 states that haven’t passed similar legislation. That says, to me at least, that those 47 states would probably not agree to cover it at the national level either. Again, right now Pathia has the freedom to go to another state for care- under a national system, that choice would not exist.

 

[pathia]

You are right that local and state governments could help by providing incentives to encourage businesses to cover Pathia’s condition- and that has happened in 3 states.

What I’m pointing out is that only 3 state governments have seen fit to pass legislation in favor of Pathia’s condition- it seems to me that, on the national level, those 3 states are vastly outnumbered by the 47 states that haven’t passed similar legislation. That says, to me at least, that those 47 states would probably not agree to cover it at the national level either. Again, right now Pathia has the freedom to go to another state for care- under a national system, that choice would not exist.

They didn’t pass anything in specific for insurance. They made it state-wide against the law to discriminate against me in general. It wasn’t an insurance-specific/condition based legislation. It is the same law that is decried in other threads as ‘special rights’ for GLBT’s. Without it, I can be fired, denied insurance, employment and many other things with no worries of legal recourse.

Again, like I said before, it is simply unprofitable to insure me. There is no way to make a profit off of me. The only way they will ever cover me is by force. No incentive would ever make an insurance company want to cover someone who’s had over a million dollars of claims before 30.

 

[whatevergirl]

Insurance, on all levels, is a complicated thing. Let’s say, a person is considering reassignment surgery, (transgendered patient)…this is rarely covered. Because the insurance company most likely views it as ‘not necessary.’ It is necessary for the patient, in the patient’s eyes. I have watched some documentaries on this, and it would seem that it is not a want, but a true need, to have the surgery. Many people who cannot afford the surgery, become very depressed, etc…

So, the company let’s say…pays for the surgery. But, complications arise from the surgery a few months later. The company drops the policyholder, because they are paying too many claims, let’s just say this is happening. The problem that exists in this scenario, is now the person has to find insurance that will cover them, to take care of the complications, which could be life threatening if they go on for long. Many insurance companies, it’s pretty typical…look at what caused the condition to begin. If the initial service isn’t covered, they won’t cover any other procedures to correct that procedure, if that makes sense.

If you leave your window open in your home, and you have a rainstorm, and your basement is flooded, most likely, your HO policy will not cover the damage, because you left the window open. They also tend to look at what the leading cause of all the claims were…

So, not knowing the details of your situation pathia nor am I asking, I would suspect that they are ignoring your current status, which sounds like you need consistent care daily, based strictly on the whole transgenedered category that you’re falling into. Have you taken this up with your employer? Have they discussed this with their broker? Your broker should try to go to bat for you, and its client, in general (your employer) relating to issues like this.

 

[Oscarthecat]

There is no way to cover me and make a profit. There is no reason ever for a for-profit company to have any interest in ever covering me. Ergo, there will never be a freemarket solution to people as unhealthy as me. There simply isn’t a way to make money off of me. I think the total medical debt I have racked up is over a million dollars. Sure, a great majority of that has been written off, but that’s just it, it was written off. That’s money lost.

There is no company in the world that would in its good business mind offer me insurance, why would they? I don’t blame them. I am uninsurable as someone who is a unrecovered alcoholic and has been busted for drunk driving a few dozen times. It just isn’t worth it.

How do you provide a freemarket solution, to a person who is inherently unprofitable? Answer: You can’t. Ergo, I need government intervention of SOME kind.

It’s not a QUESTION. It is pure and simple fact.

Pathia, there are many, many people who have collected insurance benefits that far outweigh the amount they paid in. The way that insurance companies make money is by covering large groups that contain a few people like that and a large majority of people who are healthy.

There is a free market solution to the problem you propose-and it happens every day.

The way the free market would work with you is for the group you are in (your company, for example) to step up and say that they would not sign on with that insurance company next year unless it covered your condition. Your role in that is to start talking to the people who run your company and convince them to go to bat for you. If they won’t, then either find another company that will, or start leaking the story to the media and hope that the company will be swayed by the need to protect the public image of “their lack of discrimination against folks like me.”

If your company is large enough, then, based purely on greed, the insurance company would rather lose money covering you than lose all the money they stand to make off of covering your entire company. The bigger the company, the bigger the pull they have with insurance companies.

That is the whole point of subsidiarity-make changes at the smallest level first-don’t turn to national solutions that affect the entire country when the problem can be solved in your own company.