Universal health insurance

[rtconstant]

while that might be true about the healthcare being better, i would like to ask what that means, could you clarify? the usa has the highest claims for medical care than other countries, because we are sicker than other countries. (disease ridden i should say)
We need to compare apples to apples.

A very intellegent question. We do need to make sure that we look at all the reasons and causes within our particular case. Along with your question though we should also ask if the lack of coverage for 40% of the country is at the root of our being sicker than other countries. Those without coverage are not likely to take preventative measures. Which means that for those people things are more likely to be bad when they do seek medical attention. That said I agree with your overall premise.

 

[whatevergirl]

A very intellegent question. We do need to make sure that we look at all the reasons and causes within our particular case. Along with your question though we should also ask if the lack of coverage for 40% of the country is at the root of our being sicker than other countries. Those without coverage are not likely to take preventative measures. Which means that for those people things are more likely to be bad when they do seek medical attention. That said I agree with your overall premise.

Good point! From what I know…in order to even know we are ‘sicker’ than other countries, we tend to only look at claims histories. It would be too hard to get accurate data on people who don’t have coverage, but minimal coverage might compound the situation, yes.

 

[rtconstant]

So are you saying that the fact that our government is inefficient in taking care of the people that it does provide healthcare to is an argument IN FAVOR OF turning over our entire healthcare program to the government??

if the governmnent is so inefficient in dealing with medical care, then I say they should get out of it entirely, not take over the whole works.

are you sure you’re not secretly on my side here?

Glad you brought that up. It seems to me that in the end the primary argument against UHC is actually based on an assumption that the US government is too corrupt and inefficient to do what other countries have been successful in doing. To me this seems like a scarey argument at mulitpule levels. If we’re so comfortable with the idea that our government is broken that we would rather it not even attempt to make sure basic human needs are taken care of then we’ve got much larger issues in front of us than UHC vs private health care.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

You can’t just call for a plan and not have any idea how it would work. We need specifics.

Well, if you want you can start with funding it. I can pay for it all with a Tax plan similiar to the Fair Tax. How much goes untaxed due to illegals not paying income taxes? Collect at the payment source not the income source.

For cost savings, I clearly showed earlier that the current USA healthCARE system costs about double per person compared to every other industrial system.

I personally believe everyone should get the same care for the same price, zero. Whether you are young, military, old, rich or poor, same system.

Why does a doctor have to make 500,000 per year? Why did they become doctors anyway, to be rich or help people? Why does medical school have to cost so much? Personally, if we make all college free then we are on the way.

If you get rid of all the fraud, insurance, bad debts, collection costs and profit of insurance, legal and accounting you clearly save money.

All the costs of bankruptcies caused by medical expenses effects ever part of the economy.

But it is all partisan politico kool-aid according to the neo-cons. I guess dignity for the working poor is impossible. They will just continue to carry the burden of all the jobs and work their whole lifes in a crummy job just to get wiped out by one illness.

 

[He_Man]

Well, if you want you can start with funding it. I can pay for it all with a Tax plan similiar to the Fair Tax. How much goes untaxed due to illegals not paying income taxes? Collect at the payment source not the income source.

For cost savings, I clearly showed earlier that the current USA healthCARE system costs about double per person compared to every other industrial system.

I personally believe everyone should get the same care for the same price, zero. Whether you are young, military, old, rich or poor, same system.

Why does a doctor have to make 500,000 per year? Why did they become doctors anyway, to be rich or help people? Why does medical school have to cost so much? Personally, if we make all college free then we are on the way.

If you get rid of all the fraud, insurance, bad debts, collection costs and profit of insurance, legal and accounting you clearly save money.

All the costs of bankruptcies caused by medical expenses effects ever part of the economy.

But it is all partisan politico kool-aid according to the neo-cons. I guess dignity for the working poor is impossible. They will just continue to carry the burden of all the jobs and work their whole lifes in a crummy job just to get wiped out by one illness.

Thanks for answering and being honest. But can I assume you want to eliminate private education and privately funded resaurants as well?

Food is a basic human need and right. Shouldn’t we then have to pay zero dollars for it?

 

[Oscarthecat]

Glad you brought that up. It seems to me that in the end the primary argument against UHC is actually based on an assumption that the US government is too corrupt and inefficient to do what other countries have been successful in doing. To me this seems like a scarey argument at mulitpule levels. If we’re so comfortable with the idea that our government is broken that we would rather it not even attempt to make sure basic human needs are taken care of then we’ve got much larger issues in front of us than UHC vs private health care.

1st, you’re making quite an assumption with the assertion that other countries are “successful” in implementing UHC. “Success” is a very slippery measure, and we could go around and around for the rest of our natural lives debating that claim.

2nd, in regard to everything else- I absolutely believe that governments, all governments, are corrupt and inefficient to one degree or another, and must be vigilantly kept in line to keep them small and under control. This is the nature of government and power, and is precisely the reason that I think that such a huge responsibilty with the unimaginable potential for corruption and manipulation has absolutely no place being managed by the government.

 

[whatevergirl]

Thanks for answering and being honest. But can I assume you want to eliminate private education and privately funded resaurants as well?

Food is a basic human need and right. Shouldn’t we then have to pay zero dollars for it?

Bingo! Where would this end?

 

[pathia]

Then again-it looks like you have choices.

So you’re telling me my only choice should be to emigrate to another country, abandon all my family, my friends, my job, everything? That’s not exactly much of a ‘choice’ either.

By the time I became a citizen and was capable of using those benefits I’d probably be close to death. I’ve got about 5-6years left according to most of my doctors before I become completely disabled.

Of course, the moment I become that disabled I would be eligible for care here in the US. However, there’s nothing to keep me from falling to that point. I will become even more of a burden on this country financially. It’s absolutely insane. It would be a fraction of the cost to treat and keep me healthy NOW rather to wait until I am a complete leech on the system.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Thanks for answering and being honest. But can I assume you want to eliminate private education and privately funded resaurants as well?

Food is a basic human need and right. Shouldn’t we then have to pay zero dollars for it?

I’ll say it again (for the third time)… You cannot assign a right to something that has a physical cost.

If we don’t compensate doctors (and other support staff) well, who will want to go to med school? Med school takes a lot of time and is a hard thing to get into and do. It’s not cut out for everyone. I would see a mass exodus for other fields that require less schooling but would still pay a livable wage.

If we don’t pay a premium (within reason, however) for drugs and equipment, where will the funding for R&D come from?

It’s economics 101…

 

[He_Man]

I’ll say it again (for the third time)… You cannot assign a right to something that has a physical cost.

If we don’t compensate doctors (and other support staff) well, who will want to go to med school? Med school takes a lot of time and is a hard thing to get into and do. It’s not cut out for everyone. I would see a mass exodus for other fields that require less schooling but would still pay a livable wage.

If we don’t pay a premium (within reason, however) for drugs and equipment, where will the funding for R&D come from?

It’s economics 101…

Sssssh!! I almost got one of the proponents to answer!

I agree, and your point is well taken. If there is zero incentive to do some, most people are not going to do it.

I am asking more for the proponents of the mandated system like Ted in Charlotte.

 

[whatevergirl]

Well, if you want you can start with funding it. I can pay for it all with a Tax plan similiar to the Fair Tax. How much goes untaxed due to illegals not paying income taxes? Collect at the payment source not the income source.

For cost savings, I clearly showed earlier that the current USA healthCARE system costs about double per person compared to every other industrial system.

I personally believe everyone should get the same care for the same price, zero. Whether you are young, military, old, rich or poor, same system.

Why does a doctor have to make 500,000 per year? Why did they become doctors anyway, to be rich or help people? Why does medical school have to cost so much? Personally, if we make all college free then we are on the way.

If you get rid of all the fraud, insurance, bad debts, collection costs and profit of insurance, legal and accounting you clearly save money.

All the costs of bankruptcies caused by medical expenses effects ever part of the economy.

But it is all partisan politico kool-aid according to the neo-cons. I guess dignity for the working poor is impossible. They will just continue to carry the burden of all the jobs and work their whole lifes in a crummy job just to get wiped out by one illness.

I agree–why are doctors making so much money, by taking care of sick people? If we look at doctors in India, they have long lines of people in suffering poverty stricken villages, and these doctors are working for nearly free, probably they are subsidized in some way, their housing expenses, etc.

We live in somewhat of an elitist culture, and that, I don’t see getting any better. With commercials preaching that we need to consume more to matter in life, it is no wonder we see an elitist culture emerging…or perhaps it has been around for some time. I don’t believe in the haves and have nots–as I believe everyone has the opportunity to some degree in this country. But, doctors getting rich has always eluded me. But, you’d be surprised perhaps to know that general practitioners, primary care, pediatricians, really don’t make $500k per year, unless they are in their own private practice, with no one else. Typically, they make about $150 to $200k which, I don’t begrudge anyone.

I don’t begrudge anyone from becoming wealthy in this country. It’s the land of opportunity…but, I have a problem when so many in the system are getting wealthy, at the expense of others.

 

[anthony022071]

Will they cover euthanasia, too?

Probably.

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2003/jun/03061703.html

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/apr/07041907.html

I hear that’s an up and coming cure-all. Very efficient, and 100% effective for reducing costs and sick people.

Very true. And that ties into the reasoning behind “population control”. The idea is that the best way to eliminate poverty is to eliminate people who are at risk of being born into poverty,and to prevent poor people from bringing forth more poor people into the world.

 

[Oscarthecat]

I agree–why are doctors making so much money, by taking care of sick people? If we look at doctors in India, they have long lines of people in suffering poverty stricken villages, and these doctors are working for nearly free, probably they are subsidized in some way, their housing expenses, etc…

I don’t begrudge anyone from becoming wealthy in this country. It’s the land of opportunity…but, I have a problem when so many in the system are getting wealthy, at the expense of others

You are correct that most doctors don’t make more that 100-200k per year, and most don’t start earning money until they are than 28-30 years old, after paying for 4 years of medicals school, and making a barely living wage durng their 4 year residencies. This was discussed earlier, but let me point out that with school loan costs, decreasing reimbursment from insurance companies and govt, and having to work, on average, more than 80 hours per week, and the constant threat of lawsuits by patients who think every doctor is a rolling in money, many doctors are starting to think it isn’t worth it.

In any event, the government doesn’t have the right to dictate which of its citizens make too much money.

 

[Oscarthecat]

So you’re telling me my only choice should be to emigrate to another country, abandon all my family, my friends, my job, everything? That’s not exactly much of a ‘choice’ either.

Nope, you can also choose to move to a state where insurers will cover you. You can also choose to find a company that provides insurance that will cover you.

You have choices. Not every choice is easy, but that’s true for all of us. People have to make hard choices all the time.

UHC and single payer programs, however, are a bad choice, in my opinion. I would rather you have to make a hard choice than a bad choice.

 

[Oscarthecat]

I personally believe everyone should get the same care for the same price, zero. Whether you are young, military, old, rich or poor, same system.

Ted, nobody, whether in private health care or UHC, pays nothing for their healthcare. The difference is that in private healthcare you see what you’re paying, while in UHC you’ll never know. But either way, you’d be paying for it, just like you pay for roads, jails, and needles for drug addicts.

Why does a doctor have to make 500,000 per year? Why did they become doctors anyway, to be rich or help people? Why does medical school have to cost so much?

Are you friends with any doctors? Do you have any idea how much training they have to go through? what their level of job stress is, how demanding their day to day work is? You spend a day making decisions that will either save or kill someone, and then tell me how much you think someone who can do that day in and day out is worth in our society.

The government obviously shows how much it values the people it employs when teachers make pennies but bomb designers make millions. I don’t want that government deciding the value of the doctor assigned to replace my heart valves.

Personally, if we make all college free then we are on the way.

Now you are being naiive, Ted-

Nothing is free-books, paper, buildings-they all cost money. Don’t teachers, professors, librarians, and university support staff deserve to earn money for their labor? Maybe they should just work for free and live in a van down by the river?

If you get rid of all the fraud, insurance, bad debts, collection costs and profit of insurance, legal and accounting you clearly save money.

Agreed- but UHC is not the answer to that problem, it would just be another problem on top of it all.

All the costs of bankruptcies caused by medical expenses effects ever part of the economy.

True. But do you realize that UHC is like declaring bankruptcy on ALL medical expenses for the entire country- you’re just skipping the step of sending a bill to the individual who was treated, and instead sending the bill directly to the government, who then only reimburses 1/2 or 1/4 of the hospital’s budget. Whether its bankruptcy or UHC, the people doing the work of keeping you healthy are not getting paid.

But it is all partisan politico kool-aid according to the neo-cons. I guess dignity for the working poor is impossible. They will just continue to carry the burden of all the jobs and work their whole lifes in a crummy job just to get wiped out by one illness.

Ted, if you really want to hurt the working poor, then raise taxes high enough to pay for all the universities in the country, for all the healthcare, and for whatever else you think is “free.”

You may think you’re taxing rich doctors and corporations, or “getting to the source” with the flat tax, but every tax hike designed to pay for the latest entitlement program ultimately makes life harder for the poorest workers in our society.

 

[rtconstant]

1st, you’re making quite an assumption with the assertion that other countries are “successful” in implementing UHC. “Success” is a very slippery measure, and we could go around and around for the rest of our natural lives debating that claim.

No its actually quite easy to prove they’re a success. They have longer lives, lower infant mortality, broader treatment coverage, all citizens are covered and their government spends less per capita than ours to do it. So no their system being as success isn’t debatable. What we can debate is whether or not its the best solution here in the US.

2nd, in regard to everything else- I absolutely believe that governments, all governments, are corrupt and inefficient to one degree or another, and must be vigilantly kept in line to keep them small and under control. This is the nature of government and power, and is precisely the reason that I think that such a huge responsibilty with the unimaginable potential for corruption and manipulation has absolutely no place being managed by the government.

I absolutely agree that all governments are corrupt and ineffecient. However, the major argument against UHC here seems to boil down to either the governments inability to affectively provide such care, or the idea that health care is not a right. Ignoring the second option as that is ultimately a philosophical difference that goes to how one views the world, humanity and morality and therefore not likely to be settled here, that leaves the government.

If other countries have successfully provided health care for all of their citizens but we feel that the US cannot, then we have to ask why? The reason that I’ve been interested in this apparent outlook is that it seems to come from individuals who seem to feel it is offensive to say that other countries are doing something better than the US, yet espouses a position that says the US is not capable of being as successful as other countries at providing this service.

 

[whatevergirl]

You are correct that most doctors don’t make more that 100-200k per year, and most don’t start earning money until they are than 28-30 years old, after paying for 4 years of medicals school, and making a barely living wage durng their 4 year residencies. This was discussed earlier, but let me point out that with school loan costs, decreasing reimbursment from insurance companies and govt, and having to work, on average, more than 80 hours per week, and the constant threat of lawsuits by patients who think every doctor is a rolling in money, many doctors are starting to think it isn’t worth it.

In any event, the government doesn’t have the right to dictate which of its citizens make too much money.

Yes–you are right. Relating to med mal, some docs here in FL, actually many, have stopped carrying it. Med mal insurance is so expensive it’s unreal…largely because of all the lawsuits, some reasonable, many unreasonable–against docs. So, by the time they pay the lights, the insurance, their student loan, their staff…the general practioner is not raking it in. Brain and heart surgeons, yes. Plastic surgeons, yes. But, still–their med mal is through the roof.

I don’t begrudge anyone becoming wealthy–

pathia–when I think of your circumstance, how easy might it be for a doctor out of the goodness of his/her heart, to offer you some pro bono care? It doesn’t seem like that happens a whole lot in this country…so the insurance companies always end up as the bad guys. Not saying that they don’t play a part, but docs, pharma companies, and lawyers could all join in, and make healthcare more affordable, as well. Government can only do so much, if the pricetag of healthcare continues to soar.

 

[whatevergirl]

No its actually quite easy to prove they’re a success. They have longer lives, lower infant mortality, broader treatment coverage, all citizens are covered and their government spends less per capita than ours to do it. So no their system being as success isn’t debatable. What we can debate is whether or not its the best solution here in the US.

*You’re crediting all of that though to UHC? It could also be because people in general, in other countrie, also do not work as long as we do in this country (less stress), eat lighter and more natural foods, aren’t compelled to live a stressful keeping up with the Joneses lifestyle, etc…I don’t think we owe better health to the UHC in other countries. Their lifestyles are truly different, indeed. Okinawa has less than 1% cancer rate–that has nothing to do with healthcare, it has to do with lifestyle and culture differences. By other countries–I am assuming you’re speaking of Japan, and Europe. Not discounting UHC, but I wouldn’t tout it as the end all be all, saving grace for the US, to mitigate costs. If people didn’t need doctors as much in the USA, it wouldn’t be as insurmountable a problem, as it’s become, to tell you the truth. *

I absolutely agree that all governments are corrupt and ineffecient. However, the major argument against UHC here seems to boil down to either the governments inability to affectively provide such care, or the idea that health care is not a right. Ignoring the second option as that is ultimately a philosophical difference that goes to how one views the world, humanity and morality and therefore not likely to be settled here, that leaves the government.

If other countries have successfully provided health care for all of their citizens but we feel that the US cannot, then we have to ask why? The reason that I’ve been interested in this apparent outlook is that it seems to come from individuals who seem to feel it is offensive to say that other countries are doing something better than the US, yet espouses a position that says the US is not capable of being as successful as other countries at providing this service.

*Can you provide links for your stats, that other countries’ healthcare is far better than the US? I’d like to see some hardcore numbers, just out of curiousity. I’m not saying you are wrong, I’m just saying I need more to go on to see that we’re comparing apples to apples here. Thanks, (if you can get that info, much obliged) *

 

[vern_humphrey]

*Can you provide links for your stats, that other countries’ healthcare is far better than the US? I’d like to see some hardcore numbers, just out of curiousity. I’m not saying you are wrong, I’m just saying I need more to go on to see that we’re comparing apples to apples here. Thanks, (if you can get that info, much obliged) *

There is many a slip in statistics. For example, if you stratify the US by region, race and so on, you see vastly different statistics. Arkansas has a high infant mortality rate, and that is mostly concentrated in the Delta Counties (the counties along the Mississippi River.) And surprise, surprise, that’s where illiteracy, drug abuse, single parents and other social ills are concentrated, too.

Given that we’ve poured billions into the Delta over the past decade, it would see that Government has no answer to these problems.

 

[rtconstant]

*Can you provide links for your stats, that other countries’ healthcare is far better than the US? I’d like to see some hardcore numbers, just out of curiousity. I’m not saying you are wrong, I’m just saying I need more to go on to see that we’re comparing apples to apples here. Thanks, (if you can get that info, much obliged) *

Back in post 165 on page 11 I gave the institutions and reports that I based some of that information off of. They are not linked but they are a start. If you want links I warn you up front that it will probably take me several days to get to that. I won’t be posting anymore tonight, tomorrow I’ll be working into the night so I won’t have time to dig through those sites again. And I’m working this weekend and when I’m finally off sometime Sunday afternoon I won’t be wasting time here lol. So if you’re willing to wait till next week I should be able to find electronic versions of those reports and link them. Or maybe sooner if they’re readily available.