Universal health insurance

[Oscarthecat]

No its actually quite easy to prove they’re a success. They have longer lives, lower infant mortality, broader treatment coverage, all citizens are covered and their government spends less per capita than ours to do it. So no their system being as success isn’t debatable. What we can debate is whether or not its the best solution here in the US.

Wow, you sound as sure of yourself as global warming proponents who insist that debate is closed.

Despite the debate being closed, I still want to mention that there are people within UHC countries who would disagree with you. High taxes, limited treatment choices, service rationing, are all areas of concern, not to mention problems resulting from any restriction of competition which inevitably lead to stagnation in all areas, as well as reporting issues that skew attempts to compare across systems.

I absolutely agree that all governments are corrupt and ineffecient. However, the major argument against UHC here seems to boil down to either the governments inability to affectively provide such care, or the idea that health care is not a right. Ignoring the second option as that is ultimately a philosophical difference that goes to how one views the world, humanity and morality and therefore not likely to be settled here, that leaves the government.

If other countries have successfully provided health care for all of their citizens but we feel that the US cannot, then we have to ask why? The reason that I’ve been interested in this apparent outlook is that it seems to come from individuals who seem to feel it is offensive to say that other countries are doing something better than the US, yet espouses a position that says the US is not capable of being as successful as other countries at providing this srvice.

That argument might confuse kneejerk patriots, but this debate is about private sector vs the government- you can compare government systems all you want , but that has nothing to do with the ability of the private sector to find better ways to address the health care problems. You are ignoring that issue by focussing on governments that have curtailed private industry in their own borders and then comparing them to our government system that only treats the sickest people who can’t otherwise get coverage.

 

[whatevergirl]

Back in post 165 on page 11 I gave the institutions and reports that I based some of that information off of. They are not linked but they are a start. If you want links I warn you up front that it will probably take me several days to get to that. I won’t be posting anymore tonight, tomorrow I’ll be working into the night so I won’t have time to dig through those sites again. And I’m working this weekend and when I’m finally off sometime Sunday afternoon I won’t be wasting time here lol. So if you’re willing to wait till next week I should be able to find electronic versions of those reports and link them. Or maybe sooner if they’re readily available.

Next week–not a problem. Thanks for doing that. I’ll also scroll back to page 11–I admit, I don’t read through long threads very often. I do think that healthcare in other countries is better–but health in other countries is better. I think that healthcare as we know it here–bandaiding symptoms, and reactive medicine instead of proactive medicine, is also why the costs in this country are so high. No one wants to be left holding the bag…I really think that keeping insurance private, but allowing the gov’t to step in to make some serious legislative changes coinciding with private insurers, will be the best solution for everyone.

 

[Oscarthecat]

There is many a slip in statistics. For example, if you stratify the US by region, race and so on, you see vastly different statistics. Arkansas has a high infant mortality rate, and that is mostly concentrated in the Delta Counties (the counties along the Mississippi River.) And surprise, surprise, that’s where illiteracy, drug abuse, single parents and other social ills are concentrated, too.

Given that we’ve poured billions into the Delta over the past decade, it would see that Government has no answer to these problems.

Vern, what are you talking about? The debate on any comparison between UHC in other countries and the quality of our health care is closed-we lost. If you don’t believe me, just read on…

Originally Posted by rtconstant :
No its actually quite easy to prove they’re a success. They have longer lives, lower infant mortality, broader treatment coverage, all citizens are covered and their government spends less per capita than ours to do it. So no their system being as success isn’t debatable.

So, Vern, no more need for your facts and data- just move along…

 

[whatevergirl]

I don’t know what’s scarier…the thought of UHC in the U.S., or that I am in complete agreement with vern in this thread.

 

[pathia]

This is not Pathia. I saw she posted here last, so I am giving an update. I am one of her roommates

When her alarm went off this morning she did not wake up. It went off for almost half an hour, we started to worry, her purse was still there so we knew she did not go to work. Eventually we broke into her room. She was burning up and not responsive. Still not clear what is wrong, we are posting this from hospital. The doctors think it is some sort of infection.

Please keep her in your thoughts today.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, what are you talking about? The debate on any comparison between UHC in other countries and the quality of our health care is closed-we lost. If you don’t believe me, just read on…

Oh. I didn’t know that.

So, Vern, no more need for your facts and data- just move along…

I’d have an answer for that, but I have to run out and buy carbon offsets to keep the planet from turning into a cinder.

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is not Pathia. I saw she posted here last, so I am giving an update. I am one of her roommates

When her alarm went off this morning she did not wake up. It went off for almost half an hour, we started to worry, her purse was still there so we knew she did not go to work. Eventually we broke into her room. She was burning up and not responsive. Still not clear what is wrong, we are posting this from hospital. The doctors think it is some sort of infection.

Please keep her in your thoughts today.

We will pray for her.

 

[whatevergirl]

This is not Pathia. I saw she posted here last, so I am giving an update. I am one of her roommates

When her alarm went off this morning she did not wake up. It went off for almost half an hour, we started to worry, her purse was still there so we knew she did not go to work. Eventually we broke into her room. She was burning up and not responsive. Still not clear what is wrong, we are posting this from hospital. The doctors think it is some sort of infection.

Please keep her in your thoughts today.

praying for her–please keep us posted

 

[pathia]

praying for her–please keep us posted

She’s stable, but not much better yet. It’s bacterial meningitis. She’s been sick so often, so much that her immune system is failing. The doctors say what she has is treatable by antibiotics (since it’s bacterial not viral), so we’ll know soon if they work.

 

[whatevergirl]

She’s stable, but not much better yet. It’s bacterial meningitis. She’s been sick so often, so much that her immune system is failing. The doctors say what she has is treatable by antibiotics (since it’s bacterial not viral), so we’ll know soon if they work.

Prayers are going out for her…that’s terrible. I hope she heals soon. Give her our love, ok?

 

[goofyjim]

I know I’m joining this late but everyone should have the same access to the same quality healthcare regardless of ability to pay. This should not be a conservative vs. liberal idea. If we deny anyone proper healthcare for whatever reason or side of the argument we are on and they die because of it then we are all to blame.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I know I’m joining this late but everyone should have the same access to the same quality healthcare regardless of ability to pay. This should not be a conservative vs. liberal idea. If we deny anyone proper healthcare for whatever reason or side of the argument we are on and they die because of it then we are all to blame.

And if we erect a huge, expensive, inefficient bureaucracy and health care quality declines, research and advances stop, and people die because of it then we are all to blame.

Government health care will have all the efficiency of the Post Office and all the compassion of the IRS.

 

[pathia]

And if we erect a huge, expensive, inefficient bureaucracy and health care quality declines, research and advances stop, and people die because of it then we are all to blame.

Government health care will have all the efficiency of the Post Office and all the compassion of the IRS.

It already feels like the IRS to me, the insurance companies at least. ‘I’m sorry, we just don’t offer a plan that fits your needs’. They were so uncaring about the hell that is my life and illnesses. They sound like robots and say it in a way that makes it my fault. I don’t even want to think about what this week’s bill will be, they’ll find some way to deny most of the charges. Already I’ve had a fight with them because they only want to pay for the cheapest form of pain killer, which happens to make me break out in hives all over my body.

 

[goofyjim]

And if we erect a huge, expensive, inefficient bureaucracy and health care quality declines, research and advances stop, and people die because of it then we are all to blame.

Government health care will have all the efficiency of the Post Office and all the compassion of the IRS.

Funny I never mentioned a big government bureaucracy. I simply said we must provide health care for all. Those who can afford private insurance should always have that option. Those who can’t, like myself, should have the option of buying in to the same plan that Congress has at a sliding scale fee. That way we could go to the same providers and hospitals.

 

[wabrams]

Funny I never mentioned a big government bureaucracy. I simply said we must provide health care for all. Those who can afford private insurance should always have that option. Those who can’t, like myself, should have the option of buying in to the same plan that Congress has at a sliding scale fee. That way we could go to the same providers and hospitals.

No one ever said you did, but that would be the inevitable w/ socialized healthcare.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It already feels like the IRS to me, the insurance companies at least. ‘I’m sorry, we just don’t offer a plan that fits your needs’.

But they don’t force you to buy their insurance, do they?

A single-payer plan forces you to participate, and then they do exactly what your current company does.

They were so uncaring about the hell that is my life and illnesses. They sound like robots and say it in a way that makes it my fault. I don’t even want to think about what this week’s bill will be, they’ll find some way to deny most of the charges. Already I’ve had a fight with them because they only want to pay for the cheapest form of pain killer, which happens to make me break out in hives all over my body.

And we are all praying for you. But I have to say there are untapped sources of help – have you been to talk to your pastor?

 

[goofyjim]

No one ever said you did, but that would be the inevitable w/ socialized healthcare.

But I didn’t mention socialized healthcare. I mentioned the government providing for those who can’t afford private insurance. How is it socialized healthcare if those who are disabled maybe get the same coverage that Congress gets?

 

[Oscarthecat]

Funny I never mentioned a big government bureaucracy. I simply said we must provide health care for all. Those who can afford private insurance should always have that option. Those who can’t, like myself, should have the option of buying in to the same plan that Congress has at a sliding scale fee. That way we could go to the same providers and hospitals.

Jim-

Where I agree with you is that we, as Christians, should feel individually compelled to help those in need. That happens now, today, in the form of charitities, individual acts of kindness, etc.

Where I disagree with you, and others in this discussion, is that our shared agreement that Christian charity compels us to help others should be translated into some kind of social or goverment program-including the tax subsidized Congressional insurance program- whereby all citizens are required, by force of law and the extraction of taxes, to participate in our exercise of charity.

There is a huge difference in:

a) seeing a person in need and making the individual choice to help that person,

and

b) seeing a person in need and making the decision that everyone else should help that person through the exercise of government.

On the other side of things, from the perspective of those in need, who say “I need health care but I can’t afford it”—

a) on the one hand, it is perfectly fine to recognize that you need help, and choose to approach an individual or an organization that wants to freely offer their help. This exchange is based on a freely given act of love between two groups, and is mutually rewarding.

b) on the other hand, it is not ok to recognize that you need help, and then call on government force of law and taxation to compel others to help you. Taxation for shared goals such as roads and police or fire protection is one thing, but taxation designed to take the place of charitable action is a violation of christian charity. This kind of exchange robs both parties of the potential good that comes out of the free exchange described above. It turns what should be an act of love and compassion from one person to another into an act of force that breeds resentment.

 

[mary_bobo]

But I didn’t mention socialized healthcare. I mentioned the government providing for those who can’t afford private insurance. How is it socialized healthcare if those who are disabled maybe get the same coverage that Congress gets?

Let’s see how far we get if we demand that we all get the same coverage that Congress gets. They are a privileged class, don’t you know.

 

[Oscarthecat]

But I didn’t mention socialized healthcare. I mentioned the government providing for those who can’t afford private insurance.

You just defined socialized medicine. If socialized medicine isn’t “the government providing for those who can’t afford private insurance,” then what is it? Universal Health Care is a forced government health care program that everyone has to participate in, and is a type of socialized medicine-but socialized medicine is any medical program that is paid for by taxes and/or managed by the government.

How is it socialized healthcare if those who are disabled maybe get the same coverage that Congress gets?

Because the congressional medical program is tax subsidized and/or managed by the government.