Universal health insurance

[Oscarthecat]

Let’s ask ourselves one question. If the government decided to step out of providing health care for the neediest tomorrow does anyone here really think that someone would suddenly pick up the tab? Quite simply, no. Because there is just not that much charity to go around. Too many people using those silly little envelopes for the Sunday collection basket. Why? Just make an anonymous donation by putting cash in.

If you’re going to make that kind of claim, you’ll need to back it up with some kind of data.

People in this country are charitable- there is no reason that charities can’t exist specifically for the purpose of offsetting the cost of private insurance for those in need. These charities don’t exist right now because, as I mentioned before, the presence of government health care makes people believe that there is no need to give to such a charity.

But you are right that if we removed socialized medical programs tomorrow, there would be a sudden and critical need for those who had the rug pulled out from underneath them. So, of course, there would need to be a transitional period to give people time to adjust.

(As far as your comments about the little envelopes in the collection basket- people use those to claim government tax deductions. It isn’t so that they can be recognized for making donations, it is because they would rather give their money to the church than to the government, and those little envelopes enable them to do so. But that is a topic for another thread, I guess.)

 

[Oscarthecat]

The insurance companies refuse to cover me because it is legal to discriminate against me and refuse coverage. I am an expensive customer as well, and since it is legal to not cover me, why in the world would they ever accept a customer who is a sure loss of cash? It hurts their maximization of profits. The only time I can get coverage is when I have a job that provides it for me.

We talked about this, about 200 posts ago

lol, I wonder, if I printed this thread out and lined the words up end to end, how many times it would be able to wrap around the planet?

 

[goofyjim]

If you’re going to make that kind of claim, you’ll need to back it up with some kind of data.

People in this country are charitable- there is no reason that charities can’t exist specifically for the purpose of offsetting the cost of private insurance for those in need. These charities don’t exist right now because, as I mentioned before, the presence of government health care makes people believe that there is no need to give to such a charity.

But you are right that if we removed socialized medical programs tomorrow, there would be a sudden and critical need for those who had the rug pulled out from underneath them. So, of course, there would need to be a transitional period to give people time to adjust.

(As far as your comments about the little envelopes in the collection basket- people use those to claim government tax deductions. It isn’t so that they can be recognized for making donations, it is because they would rather give their money to the church than to the government, and those little envelopes enable them to do so. But that is a topic for another thread, I guess.)

So people can claim the tax deductions effectively having the government subsidize the Church. But we can’t subsidze health care. BTW it’s not totally tax dollars. I pay a premium for my government managed health care.

 

[goofyjim]

We talked about this, about 200 posts ago

lol, I wonder, if I printed this thread out and lined the words up end to end, how many times it would be able to wrap around the planet?

And do you ever pay attention to what pathia is saying? No job ever keeps pathia making insurance on the job impossible. All this is legal. Pathia should be able to hold any job and not be fired for a condition that doesn’t affect work performance. Then maybe get insurance on a job to start paying some of the bills. Otherwise I see no reason why the government should not provide the healthcare.

 

[Oscarthecat]

So people can claim the tax deductions effectively having the government subsidize the Church. But we can’t subsidze health care. BTW it’s not totally tax dollars. I pay a premium for my government managed health care.

This is way off topic, but tax deductions aren’t subsidies because the government isn’t giving the Church that money, you are- it would be a subsidy if the government gave the Church money directly.

And, no, we can’t subsidize health care because that destroys the market and drives health care prices up, as was discussed a couple hundred posts ago.

 

[goofyjim]

This is way off topic, but tax deductions aren’t subsidies because the government isn’t giving the Church that money, you are- it would be a subsidy if the government gave the Church money directly.

And, no, we can’t subsidize health care because that destroys the market and drives health care prices up, as was discussed a couple hundred posts ago.

So everyone believes. But if those without insurance have to keep using the emrgency room and the hospitals go under through lack of collected revenue then prices will still go up. And again to deny someone emergency care is just inhumane regardless of their ability to pay.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Then why have taxes at all. You can fund police and fire organizations through charity and you can privatize the construction of roads.

I agree completely- we don’t need taxes.

Health care for all is just as much as a necessity for the wellbeing of society as the other things are.

That’s right, but it is a far stretch from that statement to your position that it is the government’s responsibility to pay for or provide health care.

We all need lots of things for society to function- if your measure for what the government should provide is simply what society needs to function, then the government should provide all cars, housing, food, clothes, childcare, lawncare, pet care, and whatever else people decide is their right.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Apparently there is the growing feeling here that if one is disabled they are just out of luck when it comes to health insurance. .

Apparently there is the growing feeling here that if one wants something, and there is someone else who works harder and is more productive, that hard worker should be forced to pay for it.

 

[goofyjim]

Apparently there is the growing feeling here that if one wants something, and there is someone else who works harder and is more productive, that hard worker should be forced to pay for it.

We’re not talking about those who don’t want to work Vern. We’re talking about those who for a good reason can’t. Your lack of compassion astounds me.

 

[Oscarthecat]

And do you ever pay attention to what pathia is saying? No job ever keeps pathia making insurance on the job impossible. All this is legal. Pathia should be able to hold any job and not be fired for a condition that doesn’t affect work performance. Then maybe get insurance on a job to start paying some of the bills. Otherwise I see no reason why the government should not provide the healthcare.

Yes, I do pay attention to what Pathia is saying. In fact, I have responded to her many times.

You are confusing Pathia’s right to work with her right to healthcare, and her right to healthcare with society’s obligation to provide it to her.

If your only reason for saying that the government should provide health care is that some people don’t have health care, then you should read through this thread more closely, because there are many more reasons that the government should not provide health care.

I’ve said it before-and I’m saying it again, it seems that the basic pro-universal health care argument comes down to this one line of thought…

“Healthcare today is just bad, something should be done.
Hey, Universal healthcare is “something.”
Therefore, we must have Universal Health Care!!!”

You are not providing any evidence than universal health care will solve any of the problems you are pointing out-
for some reason, you believe that our government-the same government that can’t seem to synchronize the stoplights in most cities, is somehow better qualified to manage the nation’s healthcare than anyone else.

The government is good at creating long lines and paperwork, taxing people, and hiding money in bureaucratic pockets- why on earth would you want them deciding whether or not you can have an appendectomy??? I agree that the state of private insurance is bad, but I would rather have competition in the free market than a single payer who doesn’t answer to anyone and never has to worry about going out of business because they can always raise taxes.

 

[goofyjim]

Yes, I do pay attention to what Pathia is saying. In fact, I have responded to her many times.

You are confusing Pathia’s right to work with her right to healthcare, and her right to healthcare with society’s obligation to provide it to her.

If your only reason for saying that the government should provide health care is that some people don’t have health care, then you should read through this thread more closely, because there are many more reasons that the government should not provide health care.

I’ve said it before-and I’m saying it again, it seems that the basic pro-universal health care argument comes down to this one line of thought…

“Healthcare today is just bad, something should be done.
Hey, Universal healthcare is “something.”
Therefore, we must have Universal Health Care!!!”

You are not providing any evidence than universal health care will solve any of the problems you are pointing out-
for some reason, you believe that our government-the same government that can’t seem to synchronize the stoplights in most cities, is somehow better qualified to manage the nation’s healthcare than anyone else.

The government is good at creating long lines and paperwork, taxing people, and hiding money in bureaucratic pockets- why on earth would you want them deciding whether or not you can have an appendectomy??? I agree that the state of private insurance is bad, but I would rather have competition in the free market than a single payer who doesn’t answer to anyone and never has to worry about going out of business because they can always raise taxes.

Everyone has the right to basic human needs. Healthcare is one of them. If pathia has the right to a job, then pathia has the right to insurance on the job as well. Maybe if we provided a little more of that we wouldn’t have to discuss whether the government should be involved. And it seems like the one line of thought that prevents universal health care is the worship of that almighty dollar.

 

[Oscarthecat]

And again to deny someone emergency care is just inhumane regardless of their ability to pay.

OK, Goofyjim

for the 1000th time, I am not saying that people should be left in the streets to die just because they can’t afford healthcare.

What I am saying is that the government should not be involved in providing healthcare to those people.

You seem to consistently twist my saying “no” to any kind of government healthcare as my saying “no” to healthcare for anyone who can’t pay for it themselves.

 

[goofyjim]

I agree completely- we don’t need taxes.

That’s right, but it is a far stretch from that statement to your position that it is the government’s responsibility to pay for or provide health care.

We all need lots of things for society to function- if your measure for what the government should provide is simply what society needs to function, then the government should provide all cars, housing, food, clothes, childcare, lawncare, pet care, and whatever else people decide is their right.

No the government should provide necessities for those who are unable to. Housing, food, clothes, healthcare and childcare are necessities. Lawncare and petcare are optional.

 

[goofyjim]

OK, Goofyjim

for the 1000th time, I am not saying that people should be left in the streets to die just because they can’t afford healthcare.

What I am saying is that the government should not be involved in providing healthcare to those people.

You seem to consistently twist my saying “no” to any kind of government healthcare as my saying “no” to healthcare for anyone who can’t pay for it themselves.

But you keep on saying the only thing driving up costs is socialized medicine. That’s just not true. Costs will go up when providers go out of business because they are unable to collect their revenue. And someone who needs emergency care should not be given the choice of being a criminal for not paying when he can’t or being denied treatment. Either way the costs will go up so a saety net for the disabled (not the ones who simply don’t want to work, mind you) will actually benefit all by keeping hospitals and other providers in business. This then provides the same service as police and fire organizations and road maintenance. So we either have taxes for all of it or none of it. I prefer the all of it option.

 

[cynic]

for the 1000th time, I am not saying that people should be left in the streets to die just because they can’t afford healthcare.

What I am saying is that the government should not be involved in providing healthcare to those people.
.

Ah so charity again, whether enough people *feel *like giving at a particular point in time determines whether someone will live or die. Gotcha.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Everyone has the right to basic human needs. Healthcare is one of them. If pathia has the right to a job, then pathia has the right to insurance on the job as well. Maybe if we provided a little more of that we wouldn’t have to discuss whether the government should be involved. And it seems like the one line of thought that prevents universal health care is the worship of that almighty dollar.

You cannot assign abstract rights to finite realities. What you think are your rights are actually the imposition of responsibilities on other people.

This is very different than saying that you have a right to life, because your life is your own and I would have to take it from you in order to violate your right to life.

On the other hand, your “right” to healthcare demands a specific responsibility of other people to provide and/or pay for it.

Do you have a right to force a doctor to provide medical care to you when there are other people who need to see that doctor just as much as you do? Doesn’t he have a right to see the outside of a hospital once in a while? or is that doctor your slave who is condemned to perpetually service your right to healthcare?

Do you have a right to a finite medical treatment when there is not enough of it available to treat everyone who needs it? Does your right to recieve a finite resource override my right to that same resource? Who decides?

Do you think that it is right to force other people into your service in order for you to extract your rights from them? Do you have the right to take away my right to fair wages by taxing me for your healthcare?

Christ never commanded anyone to form a government- He commanded us to engage in acts of individual charity, and therein lies the answer to the healthcare problem.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Ah so charity again, whether enough people *feel *like giving at a particular point in time determines whether someone will live or die. Gotcha.

Yep, the whole idea of free will is just crazy. Who came up with that?

 

[Oscarthecat]

But you keep on saying the only thing driving up costs is socialized medicine.

No I don’t-that’s just one of the problems- and socialized medicine won’t make it any better-it will just hide those costs in our rising taxes.

 

[goofyjim]

You cannot assign abstract rights to finite realities. What you think are your rights are actually the imposition of responsibilities on other people.

This is very different than saying that you have a right to life, because your life is your own and I would have to take it from you in order to violate your right to life.

On the other hand, your “right” to healthcare demands a specific responsibility of other people to provide and/or pay for it.

Do you have a right to force a doctor to provide medical care to you when there are other people who need to see that doctor just as much as you do? Doesn’t he have a right to see the outside of a hospital once in a while? or is that doctor your slave who is condemned to perpetually service your right to healthcare?

Do you have a right to a finite medical treatment when there is not enough of it available to treat everyone who needs it? Does your right to recieve a finite resource override my right to that same resource? Who decides?

Do you think that it is right to force other people into your service in order for you to extract your rights from them? Do you have the right to take away my right to fair wages by taxing me for your healthcare?

Christ never commanded anyone to form a government- He commanded us to engage in acts of individual charity, and therein lies the answer to the healthcare problem.

Hey somebody’s making us pay for a stupid war so I don’t see any problem with paying for someone’s healthcare.

 

[goofyjim]

You cannot assign abstract rights to finite realities. What you think are your rights are actually the imposition of responsibilities on other people.

This is very different than saying that you have a right to life, because your life is your own and I would have to take it from you in order to violate your right to life.

On the other hand, your “right” to healthcare demands a specific responsibility of other people to provide and/or pay for it.

Do you have a right to force a doctor to provide medical care to you when there are other people who need to see that doctor just as much as you do? Doesn’t he have a right to see the outside of a hospital once in a while? or is that doctor your slave who is condemned to perpetually service your right to healthcare?

Do you have a right to a finite medical treatment when there is not enough of it available to treat everyone who needs it? Does your right to recieve a finite resource override my right to that same resource? Who decides?

Do you think that it is right to force other people into your service in order for you to extract your rights from them? Do you have the right to take away my right to fair wages by taxing me for your healthcare?

Christ never commanded anyone to form a government- He commanded us to engage in acts of individual charity, and therein lies the answer to the healthcare problem.

BTW we don’t need to tax anyone’s wages. We can cover all this with a consumption tax. If you buy a more expensive car than I do you pay a higher tax while the percentage is the same. And we can still provide for all the basic needs of our citizens.