Universal health insurance

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ribozyme said:
Healthcare should be provided to as many people as possible because it reduces suffering.
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At what cost? I’m not utilitarian, I don’t believe the end justifies the means.

I would like to see as many people as possible with basic needs, but that doesn’t make them “rights”.
 
summasix said:
Are you arguing from a religous or political perspective?

Everything you have is a gift from God. You don’t have a right to anything. The food you eat, the water you drink, the clothes you wear are a given graciously by God to some. Many don’t have these luxuries. Healthcare is a morally acceptable privilege. We should try to expand healthcare on the basis that it improves the overall welfare of humanity, not that humanity has any righteous claim to it.

The Founding Fathers asserts a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Although government can protect its citizens from its own attacks on life, it has no authority, be it by congressional statute, executive order, or Supreme Court decision, to regulate death or sickness.
The Founding Fathers did not assert a right to happiness but the pursuit thereof. Thus, if healthcare is an essential element of happiness, it is not granted by the government (socialized medicine) but rather citizens may pursue it through their own means (privatized healthcare).

So from what source do you assume the right to healthcare?
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Then on that basis big corporations have no rights either but they buy their way into them because the dollar is worshipped over everything else. And the government has no right to tax my wages but they seem to get away with that.
 
goofyjim said:
And the government has no right to tax my wages but they seem to get away with that.
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Ihey do have that right. It’s the 16th amendment.

I would love to see that amendment repealed, however, as I don’t believe income tax is just.
 
Caesar517 said:
Ihey do have that right. It’s the 16th amendment.

I would love to see that amendment repealed, however, as I don’t believe income tax is just.
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Well if they have the right to tax I have a say in how my taxes are spent and I have the right to vote in favor of them being spent on health insurance. How can we agree that noone really has any rights but the government has this one?:whacky:
 
goofyjim said:
Well if they have the right to tax I have a say in how my taxes are spent and I have the right to vote in favor of them being spent on health insurance. How can we agree that noone really has any rights but the government has this one?:whacky:
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People have “rights” granted to them by the US Constitution in the Bill of Rights. So do the 50 States.

There is a difference between a “right” granted by the government and a basic human right. There is mass confusion between the two.

Theoretically, we do have a say in how our taxed money is spent. We can elect representatives to do our will. unfortunately, corruption is removing that capability.

It would be unconstitutional for the federal government to set up socialized healthcare (as are almost all current government programs). It would, however, be constitutional for the states to set up healthcare syatems individually.
 
Caesar517 said:
People have “rights” granted to them by the US Constitution in the Bill of Rights. So do the 50 States.

There is a difference between a “right” granted by the government and a basic human right. There is mass confusion between the two.

Theoretically, we do have a say in how our taxed money is spent. We can elect representatives to do our will. unfortunately, corruption is removing that capability.

It would be unconstitutional for the federal government to set up socialized healthcare (as are almost all current government programs). It would, however, be constitutional for the states to set up healthcare syatems individually.
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Since when is the will of the people unconstitutional? If a democratic majority are in favor of socialized healthcare then it goes. Where this thread began to lose credibilty is when it said everything I have is a gift from God and therefore I have no rights yet an institution which only exists by the will of the people has rights.
 
goofyjim said:
Since when is the will of the people unconstitutional? If a democratic majority are in favor of socialized healthcare then it goes. Where this thread began to lose credibilty is when it said everything I have is a gift from God and therefore I have no rights yet an institution which only exists by the will of the people has rights.
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:rotfl:
Have you read the constitution? It is meant as a guideline for our government. Injecting popular opinion into the constitution is causing it to be largely ignored in our society. The constitution is not simply the majority opinion.

There are, however, ways to amend the constitution as outlined in the constitution. It has happened many times before and it can happen again. If you want to legitimately establish national healthcare, you would have to re-weitr the constitution to support a socialist country. Our current constitution supports conservatism, capatialism, and a republic form of government.

Again, you are confusing government “rights” with basic human rights.
 
Oscarthecat said:
Do you think that it is right to force other people into your service in order for you to extract your rights from them? Do you have the right to take away my right to fair wages by taxing me for your healthcare?

.
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Which is what it really comes down to. Government funding for healthcare reduces *my income. *If it were a choice between the government marginally reducing everyones income or letting a certain number of people die through lack of treatment, you would prefer the later.
 
This is Pathia’s SO. Pathia’ll be gone for awhile again. She’s started to have seizures, the infection is still spreading rather than shrinking it seems. They’re going to change her antibiotics to try to remove it.

The laptop got smashed to the ground, but it’s still ticking, it must be tough like my girl. I’ll keep you posted. I’m starting to get a little worried…but the doctors say she’s young enough that she should be okay as soon as they figure out what antibiotic it will respond to.
 
goofyjim said:
Then on that basis big corporations have no rights either but they buy their way into them because the dollar is worshipped over everything else. And the government has no right to tax my wages but they seem to get away with that.
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Grasping at straws, I see.
 
When someone makes a false accusation that I don’t work hard and never apologizes I discredit the whole thread.
 
cynic said:
Which is what it really comes down to. Government funding for healthcare reduces *my income. *If it were a choice between the government marginally reducing everyones income or letting a certain number of people die through lack of treatment, you would prefer the later.
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But that’s not the choice we’re offered.

The choice is between the government seriously reducing everyones income and letting a certain number of people die through lack of treatment, or leaving us enough to help people who need it.
 
Caesar517 said:
:rotfl:
Have you read the constitution? It is meant as a guideline for our government. Injecting popular opinion into the constitution is causing it to be largely ignored in our society. The constitution is not simply the majority opinion.

There are, however, ways to amend the constitution as outlined in the constitution. It has happened many times before and it can happen again. If you want to legitimately establish national healthcare, you would have to re-weitr the constitution to support a socialist country. Our current constitution supports conservatism, capatialism, and a republic form of government.

Again, you are confusing government “rights” with basic human rights.
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Hogwash. Under those terms the Social Security system is unconstitutional. Have you ever had a disability strike at a young age before you have the chance to earn disability insurance on a job? Because that what the system is in place for. It has prevented me from going homeless. Now if all of you prefer that I would do that then do what you can to take away my income but I doubt whether that would be the Christian thing to do even if it is capitalist and conservative. Not everyhting conservative and capitalist is Christian so get the rosy idea out of your minds. If you think you will be saved by standing up for one system over another think again. It doesn’t matter which you support. They are different means to help.
 
goofyjim said:
Well then the government will have to learn to with nothing because taxing anyone’s wages is unfair. Noone should be forced to give any of what he labors for.
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Yes- that is exactly right. I could not have said it better myself.

The only free society is a voluntary society.
 
goofyjim said:
Hogwash. Under those terms the Social Security system is unconstitutional.
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You want to be careful about saying that out loud.

The FICA tax is a direct tax, it is not apportioned among the states and it is not an income tax.😉
 
Oscarthecat said:
I agree with you completely, unless you also mean that the government should be the one providing it.
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I can be as stubborn as the rest of you and I will conitnue to support government healthcare for the disabled.
 
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