Universal health insurance

[Peregrino]

Jesus told us to take care of the poor and needy. He never told us how we should do it.

Charity seems more Christ-like to me than forced donation.

Why are taxes acceptable when they produce death and destruction (military purposes/war) but are called “forced donations” when their goal is to take care of the health needs of our neighbors?

“Forced donations” for universal health care seems more Christ-like to me than “forced donations” for guns, landmines and war …

Perhaps the fact that caring for one’s neighbor feels “forced” should provide some insight into our culture as a whole…

 

[cynic]

Would Jesus be in favor of universal health care? I think we all know the answer to this question…

This is a kind of arguing is a bit underhand. The Bible does not contain a plan for society like the Qu’ran. What would Jesus be in favour of (?) - nobody knows.

 

[Caesar517]

Why are taxes acceptable when they produce death and destruction (military purposes/war) but are called “forced donations” when their goal is to take care of the health needs of our neighbors?

“Forced donations” for universal health care seems more Christ-like to me than “forced donations” for guns, landmines and war …

Perhaps the fact that caring for one’s neighbor feels “forced” should provide some insight into our culture as a whole…

Taxes that go to the military are used to protect us from foreign invaders.

No one ever said that all caring for neighbors is forced, you twist my words.

There exists forced and voluntary donating/caring for others. Can you guess what the difference between forced and voluntary is?

Choice. The ability to exercise free will.

God gives us the option to choose Him over sin. I don’t think we should ever force someone to do good works. They completely loose their value when they are forced.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Because I live in the real world.

What is the real world according to Vern? Jefferson thought revolutions were required from time to time and considered it a good thing to keep governments in check.

And I know what it’s like to command in combat.

I am glad of that but open ended combat missions are not a legitimate use of political will. I am not afraid. Stop being afraid for me.

Doctrinaire strategies don’t work.

Common sense and honest people do work, and some Doctrine is not to be discarded as irrelevant or inappropriate to apply simply because it comes from your faith.

You have decided my safety is worth my money and I am sure you will fight to the very last drop of my blood for my freedom (and the people of Iraq), but; you are unwilling to spend my money on my healthcare (while we build Iraqi hospitals and schools with my money) here at home?

Yours is a prime example why the republicrats are the same but different. Both say income taxes are neccessary for the common good and both are trying to compromise how to spend what we give them while telling us we give them too much with promises to give some a tax break by promising to tax higher those who succeed so that everyone pays a fair share.

I don’t want to give any of my money as an income tax to federally fund/run/dictate universal healthcare or a universal military and political dominance around the world, universal education, universal wars on drugs, crime, terror, environment, illiteracy, poverty, and pot hole-filling in the streets. I don’t need a big brother to watch out for me in the form of a federal government. Why do you?

Does your combat experience qualify you to approve the billions we pay (by borrowing) to Russia to protect their nukes? How about what we pay to Arabia and Egtpt? Is it to make us safe funding the dictators of the world? Does my lack of combat experience disqualify the value of my safety? What is more important; fighting bin Laden in Iraq and Afghanistan while he is in Pakistan, or the millions of Americans without the ability to make a monthly payment to an insurance company?

All of you that support either of these things, stop doing me such favors by taking my money I work hard for to pay for your view of my greater good. I have my own view.

Want to increase the roads?- vote to increase the (local) gas tax.
Want more/better schools?- increase the property tax.
Want a hospital?- Find a benefactor. The more successful people are the more there will be to contribute freely.
Want to give $50 to the feed the poor in Columbia or the dictator in Pakistan, or even our friends in Israel; open your own wallet and stay out of mine.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Interesting note: the military provides its members with fairly universal (dare we say socialized) health care…

No, the military provides, as an employment benefit, a comprehensive medical program. While I could make the argument that any government employee is ultimately benefiting from the exercise of force by the government against its own people in the form of unfair taxation, for the purpose of this discussion I will simply point out the following…

You are confusing your terms.

***Socialized medicine ***is when the government subverts christian charity by taking money from one group of people under the threat of imprisonment and loss of property, in the form of tax dollars, to fund and/or manage medical healthcare for those who are unable to provide their own medical care.

***Universal healthcare ***is when the government destroys the free market, violates basic human freedom, and subverts christian charity by taking money from one group of people under the threat of imprisonment and loss of property, in the form of tax dollars, and forces the entire society to participate in its mandatory health care program.

Employer healthcare benefits are a benefit provided or made available to employees by an employer, and are the result of a mutually beneficial, voluntary relationship which can be terminated by either party according to the terms of that agreement.

Hopefully that will help keep you from confusing these terms in the future.

 

[Verisimilitude]

No, the military provides, as an employment benefit, a comprehensive medical program.

For the commitment required I thought they took great care of me. They wanted to keep me healthy. Fair compensation for me but different for the doctors as they got paid at the rate of their rank. If they wanted to make more $ they could leave and go into the private sector just like pilots do.

Except now the government is encroching on the private sector with federally mandatory wage rates, mandatory insurance coverage, regulations, treatments, HMO’s, travel restrictions, and privacy losses to name a few.

It’s almost like being back in the military except the great healthcare and free chow.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Perhaps the fact that caring for one’s neighbor feels “forced” should provide some insight into our culture as a whole…

I think that what provides insight into our culture is that so many people think that giving money to the government is the best and only way to care for the poor.

The government forces all of us to turn over a significan portion of our income so that it can subvert charity by creating socialized programs. The end result of this is not a that there are fewer poor-there are more poor than ever before, and not that people are healthier, because they are not. The end result of encouraging the government to take the place of individual charity is that individuals assume they do not need to be charitable toward one another because their government is supposed to be taking care of everything.

If you don’t think you are being forced to pay taxes, then stop paying them for a few months or a few years and see what happens.

That so many people on this forum think that paying taxes and encouraging government action is an act of Christian Charity speaks volumes about the state of our society.

 

[Oscarthecat]

For the commitment required I thought they took great care of me. They wanted to keep me healthy. Fair compensation for me but different for the doctors as they got paid at the rate of their rank. If they wanted to make more $ they could leave and go into the private sector just like pilots do.

Except now the government is encroching on the private sector with federally mandatory wage rates, mandatory insurance coverage, regulations, treatments, HMO’s, travel restrictions, and privacy losses to name a few.

It’s almost like being back in the military except the great healthcare and free chow.

Not sure where you’re going with this, but if you’re saying that the government is overstepping its bounds in every sector, then I agree with you.

Doctors in the military know what they’re getting into-they may get paid less than the private sector, but many are serving out their education agreement and will enter into the private sector with little or no school loan debt. Alternatively, some have freely chosen to continue on as military medical personnel despite the comparably low pay.

If universal healthcare was implemented, every doctor in the united states, private or not, would be affected, and many would rather find a different career than deal with the long hours and high stress that comes with being a doctor without the financial compensation they are making now.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Would Jesus be in favor of universal health care? I think we all know the answer to this question…

I doubt that Jesus would be in favor of any government program- can you point to a single passage where He advocates larger government or increasing government programs for the poor. When he told the rich man to sell all of his possessions he instructed him to give the money to the poor, not to give the money to the government so that it can redistribute it after extracting their administrative costs.

And don’t try to pull the “Render unto to Caesar what is Caesar’s” line-that has already been tried.
My health does not belong to Caesar or to the US Congress, and I’m not handing it over to either of them

 

[Verisimilitude]

Not sure where you’re going with this, …If universal healthcare was implemented, every doctor in the united states, private or not, would be affected, and many would rather find a different career than deal with the long hours and high stress that comes with being a doctor without the financial compensation they are making now.

With eyes open as yours seem to be where we are going is obvious…how to move in a new direction is the question. Education isn’t the answer exactly as many educated people do stupid things like make stupid laws, steal billions by fraud, or fly planes into buildings. All government isn’t a bad thing but all government isn’t a good thing either.

Limited government is maybe best. I think we should try that again.

 

[soma]

We have people with money taking medical vacations, which is going to another country for medical services. I did it myself and received excellent service by doctors who studied at Stanford. I don’t mind being taxed so everyone can receive medical care without having to sell an arm and a leg. It is the human right to receive medical care and a Christian duty to provide it. The money we save from not being taxed will not buy our souls back.

 

[Verisimilitude]

We have people with money taking medical vacations, which is going to another country for medical services. I did it myself and received excellent service by doctors who studied at Stanford. I don’t mind being taxed so everyone can receive medical care without having to sell an arm and a leg. It is the human right to receive medical care and a Christian duty to provide it. The money we save from not being taxed will not buy our souls back.

Most employers offer a health care plan now mandated by the government. The national unemployment rate is less than 5% so something seems amiss about the dire need to act federally.

Jesus praised the woman who gave her only coins to the Temple treasury because she gave willingly and chastised those who gave from what they had in excess. Forcing me to give it doesn’t do much for my soul I think partularly when it funds things like war and abortion. Wasn’t the idea of what He taught about using our free will to do His will?

 

[cynic]

I think that what provides insight into our culture is that so many people think that giving money to the government is the best and only way to care for the poor.

The government forces all of us to turn over a significan portion of our income so that it can subvert charity by creating socialized programs.
.

And the alternative is some kind of anarchy where the lives of those too sick to work, the elderly, the education of poor families children etc. all rely on how generous the rest of the population feels at any given point in time. People like the idea that a certain level of help will be guaranteed.

 

[Phemie]

Hasn’t been the case here - because the gov’t provides the health care, they ensure that enough docs are hired to take care of the population. In a private system docs go where the money is - in a public system they are sent where they are needed.

Er, where did you ever get that idea? If that were the case it would be easy to find doctors in rural areas & small towns but that’s not where most doctors establish their practice. Government doesn’t tell doctors where to practice or small towns wouldn’t have to actively recruit.

 

[Oscarthecat]

And the alternative is some kind of anarchy where the lives of those too sick to work, the elderly, the education of poor families children etc. all rely on how generous the rest of the population feels at any given point in time. People like the idea that a certain level of help will be guaranteed.

Now we have a right to guarantees?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I doubt that the canadians or mexicans or maybe even “the terrorists” are likely to invade anytime soon…

Right. And the World Trade Center is still standing. Our embassies in Africa were never bombed. There was no attack on the USS Cole.

Since you want to reduce soldiers/people to some form of commodity, why not argue that “more workers die of disease than wounds” and argue that it “makes more sense” to preserve the health of the workers than continually replace their losses with less experienced people?

Sounds to me like you’re the one who wants to reduce people to a commodity – a commodity to be robbed and plundered by any evil power that may arise.

Would Jesus be in favor of universal health care? I think we all know the answer to this question…

Jesus would be in favor of you pulling your share of the load, and giving of yourself. He would not be in favor of you abdicating your responsibility to the government.

 

[mlchance]

Now we have a right to guarantees?

Tell that to the man in Oregon on gov’t assistance (read: gov’t health insurance) who was recently told he couldn’t receive treatment but could receive assisted suicide.

That is the face of government-run, universal health care.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[vern_humphrey]

What is the real world according to Vern? Jefferson thought revolutions were required from time to time and considered it a good thing to keep governments in check.

And that relates to the point of this thread, how?

I am glad of that but open ended combat missions are not a legitimate use of political will. I am not afraid. Stop being afraid for me.

When you’ve served in combat yourself, then I’ll believe you are not afraid.

Common sense and honest people do work, and some Doctrine is not to be discarded as irrelevant or inappropriate to apply simply because it comes from your faith.

Huh?

You have decided my safety is worth my money and I am sure you will fight to the very last drop of my blood for my freedom (and the people of Iraq), but; you are unwilling to spend my money on my healthcare (while we build Iraqi hospitals and schools with my money) here at home?

No, I have decided my country is worth defending. It is my country because I have bled for it.

Yours is a prime example why the republicrats are the same but different. Both say income taxes are neccessary for the common good and both are trying to compromise how to spend what we give them while telling us we give them too much with promises to give some a tax break by promising to tax higher those who succeed so that everyone pays a fair share.

And yours is a prime example why cockamamie political ideas are soundly rejected by the people.

I don’t want to give any of my money as an income tax to federally fund/run/dictate universal healthcare or a universal military and political dominance around the world, universal education, universal wars on drugs, crime, terror, environment, illiteracy, poverty, and pot hole-filling in the streets. I don’t need a big brother to watch out for me in the form of a federal government. Why do you?

I don’t – I can hold my share of the line. Can you?

Does your combat experience qualify you to approve the billions we pay (by borrowing) to Russia to protect their nukes? How about what we pay to Arabia and Egtpt? Is it to make us safe funding the dictators of the world? Does my lack of combat experience disqualify the value of my safety? What is more important; fighting bin Laden in Iraq and Afghanistan while he is in Pakistan, or the millions of Americans without the ability to make a monthly payment to an insurance company?

Your lack of combat experience is a perfect example of how cockamamie theories can run wild in the minds of people who have never been there, and can only imagine what it’s like.

All of you that support either of these things, stop doing me such favors by taking my money I work hard for to pay for your view of my greater good. I have my own view.

And feel free to express it – others suffered so that you might have that right.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Tell that to the man in Oregon on gov’t assistance (read: gov’t health insurance) who was recently told he couldn’t receive treatment but could receive assisted suicide.

That is the face of government-run, universal health care.

– Mark L. Chance.

Um- tell what to that man in Oregon, exactly?

That he is guaranteed to have no control his own healthcare decisions because he’s under the socialized healthcare system?

or that he is guaranteed the best healthcare that the government can provide-which is, apparently, to euthanize people that are too expensive to treat?

besides, the government can’t “guarantee” anything longer than the next election cycle.

 

[Verisimilitude]

And that relates to the point of this thread, how?

You are useless to have a discussion with. I’ll go back to ignoring you.