Universal health insurance

[vern_humphrey]

You are useless to have a discussion with. I’ll go back to ignoring you.

Exercise caution upon departure to avoid being impacted posteriorily by the protuberance on the portal.

 

[Oscarthecat]

And that relates to the point of this thread, how?

Vern, I don’t think you really addressed his point (at least the point that relates specifically to this thread).

If one bases their argument against universal healthcare on the premise that the government oversteps its bounds when it takes the place of private enterprise or encroaches on individual freedom to affect a collective goal, then one must test that position by applying it to every circumstance in which the government does these things.

In the same way, many of the arguments that are used to justify the government providing healthcare can be used to justify the government providing military protection.

For example, if the government is not competent or efficient enough to provide healthcare, why would we trust them with national defense? I’m not advocating UHC, far from it, I’m just pointing out that I don’t trust the government to do anything, and am suspicious of anything that it does. So whether the government is telling me that they want me to take one medication over another, or they are telling me that they need to attack one country instead of another, I’m not going to take them at their word that what they want is in my best interests.

Another way to look at it is that if the government does not have the authority to force us to participate, through taxation, in one program that is designed to protect us, such as UHC, then why do they have the authority to force us to participate in another program, through taxation, that is designed to protect us, such as the military?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, I don’t think you really addressed his point (at least the point that relates specifically to this thread).

This point?

What is the real world according to Vern? Jefferson thought revolutions were required from time to time and considered it a good thing to keep governments in check.

How does revolution or Jefferson relate to this thread?

If one bases their argument against universal healthcare on the premise that the government oversteps its bounds when it takes the place of private enterprise or encroaches on individual freedom to affect a collective goal, then one must test that position by applying it to every circumstance in which the government does these things.

What are “these things?”

If you mean overstepping its bounds, that’s one thing. If you mean examining how government does those things the Constitution commits it to do, that’s another.

In the same way, many of the arguments that are used to justify the government providing healthcare can be used to justify the government providing military protection.

No.

The defense of the nation is specifically provided for in the Constitution. It is a duty of the government.

Healthcare is not.

For example, if the government is not competent or efficient enough to provide healthcare, why would we trust them with national defense?

By the fact that we gained our independence and have maintained if for well over two centuries – despite some rather serious attempts to overthrow us, of course!

I’m not advocating UHC, far from it, I’m just pointing out that I don’t trust the government to do anything, and am suspicious of anything that it does. So whether the government is telling me that they want me to take one medication over another, or they are telling me that they need to attack one country instead of another, I’m not going to take them at their word that what they want is in my best interests.

When we are at war, it’s a case of fish or cut bait. Don’t give the enemy leave to think that if he just holds on and kills enough Americans, he can win in the streets of America what he cannot win on the battlefield.

Another way to look at it is that if the government does not have the authority to force us to participate, through taxation, in one program that is designed to protect us, such as UHC, then why do they have the authority to force us to participate in another program, through taxation, that is designed to protect us, such as the military?

The Constitution gives the government the power to raise and support military forces and to declare war. It makes the President the Commander-in-Chief of our Armed Forces.

The Constitution does not say one word about Universal Health Care.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Vern, I’m right there with you on a lot of stuff you say, but I don’t buy into the whole military arrogance thing-

When you’ve served in combat yourself, then I’ll believe you are not afraid.

Really? Only after a person has served in combat? I don’t remember being instructed to sign up for military service when Jesus said “Be not afraid.”

No, I have decided my country is worth defending. It is my country because I have bled for it.

Citizenship is not contingent upon military service in my country Vern. I thought we both lived in the U.S.? Maybe I was wrong?

And yours is a prime example why cockamamie political ideas are soundly rejected by the people.

Ideas like Universal Health Care? That idea hasn’t yet been soundly rejected by the people, but it is “cockamamie.”

I don’t – I can hold my share of the line. Can you?

Which line? What is that line attached to? Maybe I don’t want what’s on the other side of that line? Maybe that line isn’t attached to what you think it is attached to?

Let go of the line, Vern- walk on your own without holding onto a line.

Isn’t that the whole point you’ve been arguing against UHC? that people should find a way to take care of themselves without government involvement?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Vern, I don’t think you really addressed his point (at least the point that relates specifically to this thread).

When governments (including our own) becomes a force that is not acting in accordance with the law and the common good, but rather acts in arrogance and does things like forced and excessive taxation, unjust wars, and police state (Partiot Act, Military Commisons Act) type actions, Jefferson felt it was not only th eright but the duty of the People to overthrow or otherwise chaneg the government. Peacefully preferably but he had experience with the need to use force when required. That is the point.

Unless you got shot in combat Vern thinks you have not justified opinion to give.

 

[Oscarthecat]

This point?

No, Vern, not that point.

If you want to start a thread about the military, go right ahead. This thread, however, is about Universal Health Care.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Unless you got shot in combat Vern thinks you have not justified opinion to give.

He doesn’t stop there- Apparently you’re not even a citizen if you haven’t served in the military.

 

[neat62]

Verisimilitude;3847437

and does things like forced and excessive taxation, unjust wars, and police state (Partiot Act, Military Commisons Act) type actions, Jefferson felt it was not only th eright but the duty of the People to overthrow or otherwise chaneg the government

And taking away the second amendment, banning foods that one particular side disagrees with, taking away property rights, banning smoking based on false(if any) data, granting rights that do not exist to one segment of the nation, forced charity, socialized medicne, cameras on major city streets, and enforced political correctness,etc.

Let’s not forget the lefts view of freedom either.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Verisimilitude;3847437

And taking away the second amendment, banning foods that one particular side disagrees with, taking away property rights, banning smoking based on false(if any) data, granting rights that do not exist to one segment of the nation, forced charity, socialized medicne, cameras on major city streets, and enforced political correctness,etc.

Let’s not forget the lefts view of freedom either.

I think that the view of freedom comes down to two groups-

one group thinks that freedom is something that comes from the government, in the form of programs and safeguards, like Universal Healthcare.

The other group thinks that freedom is compromised by these same government programs and safeguards.

As far as I’m concerned, for anyone to be truly free, they have to be free to fail miserably. Any government program designed to keep me from failing is in violation of my freedom.

 

[neat62]

I think that the view of freedom comes down to two groups-

one group thinks that freedom is something that comes from the government, in the form of programs and safeguards, like Universal Healthcare.

The other group thinks that freedom is compromised by these same government programs and safeguards.

As far as I’m concerned, for anyone to be truly free, they have to be free to fail miserably. Any government program designed to keep me from failing is in violation of my freedom.

Excellent, I agree with you.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, I’m right there with you on a lot of stuff you say, but I don’t buy into the whole military arrogance thing-

And I don’t buy into the whole civilian arrogance thing.

Really? Only after a person has served in combat? I don’t remember being instructed to sign up for military service when Jesus said “Be not afraid.”

Yet He associated with soldiers, as did Peter.

Citizenship is not contingent upon military service in my country Vern. I thought we both lived in the U.S.? Maybe I was wrong?

Citizenship is contigent on someone serving in the military – the rights we enjoy were purchased with other men’s blood.

Isn’t that the whole point you’ve been arguing against UHC? that people should find a way to take care of themselves without government involvement?

Indeed they should. But to do that, we must be free. We purchase our freedom with our blood.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Yet He associated with soldiers, as did Peter.

sure he associated with soldiers- but he didn’t mandate that we all have to be soldiers, Vern.

Citizenship is contigent on someone serving in the military – the rights we enjoy were purchased with other men’s blood.

Indeed they should. But to do that, we must be free. We purchase our freedom with our blood.

Vern, in order for you to “purchase” anything, someone has to sell it to you. Human Freedom is a gift from God, you don’t “buy” it with someone’s blood. People may try to kill you rather than allow you to live freely, but they aren’t selling you your freedom, Vern.

You are mixing your metaphors, and you are hijacking this thread.

 

[Verisimilitude]

He doesn’t stop there- Apparently you’re not even a citizen if you haven’t served in the military.

Perhaps if we yell “incoming” he will go away.

Hypocrites usually don’t though which is why revolutions sometimes are required.

 

[vern_humphrey]

sure he associated with soldiers- but he didn’t mandate that we all have to be soldiers, Vern.

He didn’t mandate we all had to be carpenters, priests, or scholars. He did see soldiers as necessary for the protection of all.

Vern, in order for you to “purchase” anything, someone has to sell it to you. Human Freedom is a gift from God, you don’t “buy” it with someone’s blood. People may try to kill you rather than allow you to live freely, but they aren’t selling you your freedom, Vern.

Oscar, when you’re looking at your own bones sticking out of your flesh, you realize that’s the price of freedom. Some people paid that price so others can enjoy it.

You are mixing your metaphors, and you are hijacking this thread.

No, you are. I’m replying to your post.

 

[Oscarthecat]

He didn’t mandate we all had to be carpenters, priests, or scholars. He did see soldiers as necessary for the protection of all.

Oscar, when you’re looking at your own bones sticking out of your flesh, you realize that’s the price of freedom. Some people paid that price so others can enjoy it.

No, you are. I’m replying to your post.

Vern, if you want to expound on your views regarding a government funded military, the start a thread about it.

If you just want to wax poetic about military sacifice, then get a diary.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, if you want to expound on your views regarding a government funded military, the start a thread about it.

If you just want to wax poetic about military sacifice, then get a diary.

Once again, it is you who are keeping this silly debate alive, not me.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Tell that to the man in Oregon on gov’t assistance (read: gov’t health insurance) who was recently told he couldn’t receive treatment but could receive assisted suicide.

That is the face of government-run, universal health care.

– Mark L. Chance.

Source?

 

[summasix]

When governments (including our own) becomes a force that is not acting in accordance with the law and the common good, but rather acts in arrogance and does things like forced and excessive taxation, unjust wars, and police state (Partiot Act, Military Commisons Act) type actions, Jefferson felt it was not only th eright but the duty of the People to overthrow or otherwise chaneg the government.QUOTE]

Another common misconception about the Patriot Act. The White House has made it abundantly clear that they only monitor international calls made to or from the U.S… Wiretapping international phone calls is a common sense approach to frustrating the funnelling of al-Qaeda and other well organized terrorist organizations’ resources into the country. This is in no way an infringement on the People, it is a helpful protection against an immediate and proven danger.

The Constitution specifies in article 2 that the President, as commander in chief, has the responsibility of providing for the common defense. Where in article 1 does the Constitution delegate to Congress the power to create a healthcare system?

 

[Oscarthecat]

Verisimilitude;3847437:

When governments (including our own) becomes a force that is not acting in accordance with the law and the common good, but rather acts in arrogance and does things like forced and excessive taxation, unjust wars, and police state (Partiot Act, Military Commisons Act) type actions, Jefferson felt it was not only th eright but the duty of the People to overthrow or otherwise chaneg the government.QUOTE]

Another common misconception about the Patriot Act. The White House has made it abundantly clear that they only monitor international calls made to or from the U.S… Wiretapping international phone calls is a common sense approach to frustrating the funnelling of al-Qaeda and other well organized terrorist organizations’ resources into the country. This is in no way an infringement on the People, it is a helpful protection against an immediate and proven danger.

The Constitution specifies in article 2 that the President, as commander in chief, has the responsibility of providing for the common defense. Where in article 1 does the Constitution delegate to Congress the power to create a healthcare system?

Hmm, maybe you are referring to Article 1, Section 8, which states:

“The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States”

That’s what most people go to, anyway-the phrase “General Welfare” can be interpreted in any number of ways. I won’t argue that in the modern day, that people interpret, to the point of abuse, the phrase “general welfare” to mean everything from foodstamps, to childcare benefits, to bus passes, and, yes, universal healthcare.

However, they ignore Ammendment 10, which was written, in part, to curb abuses of Federal authority-

Ammendment 10 states: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

Given that there is absolutely no reference to healthcare anywhere in the constitution, I would say that all matters of socialized healthcare are, at best, the responsibility of the states, and not of the federal government.

I am not, however, advocating for socialized medicine at the state level, I am simply pointing out that it is definitely not the responsibility of the federal government.

 

[Caesar517]

Well said, Oscarthecat.