Universal Healthcare, Is it scriptural?

[mlchance]

What part of my post did you not understand?

The part that specifically answers these questions in concrete terms:

But what about rights? Do needs come before rights? IOW, do the needs of the poor trump my right to keep the product of my own labor? If so, what are the limits? If not, then what does that say about my moral obligations? Furthermore, define “rich” and “poor” in a way that makes sense. All the while, keep in mind that mandatory charity is a contradiction in terms.

As an aside, I can’t help admire the irony of someone posting the story of the rich young man on the internet. Are you using your own computer to do so? If so, why haven’t you sold that computer and given the money to the poor? Or, more to the point of the thread, why hasn’t the government confiscated your computer and sold it to take care of the poor after funneling the money through an inherently wasteful bureaucracy?



– Mark L. Chance.

 

[josephdavid]

The part that specifically answers these questions in concrete terms:

1. But what about rights? Do needs come before rights? IOW, do the needs of the poor trump my right to keep the product of my own labor? If so, what are the limits? If not, then what does that say about my moral obligations? Furthermore, define “rich” and “poor” in a way that makes sense. All the while, keep in mind that mandatory charity is a contradiction in terms.

2)As an aside, I can’t help admire the irony of someone posting the story of the rich young man on the internet. Are you using your own computer to do so? If so, why haven’t you sold that computer and given the money to the poor? Or, more to the point of the thread, why hasn’t the government confiscated your computer and sold it to take care of the poor after funneling the money through an inherently wasteful bureaucracy?



– Mark L. Chance.

1. I think Matthew 19 answers your questions.
2. I have new computer. I donated my other computer to a school along with others we have collected to donate instead of selling off. It was a city devised drive. Also that is what my taxes are for. Some of my neighbors have rummage sales and sell off their old clothes, furniture, pots and pans. I donate it. Besides I can write it off. Everyone wins.

What is less moral Mark?.. Spending money on a program that at the moment that although is helping a few people, but needs fixing or just cutting off funds and thus the program, which helps no one?
Sometimes I wonder if the latter is the new American way? It doesnt work… so let’s forget about it instead of just fixing it. We all want the world problems fixed but if costs us oour own personal time and money… forget it.

 

[josephdavid]

Before I forget… nice attempt to make me out to look like a hypocrite…

Why do you have a computer?

 

[mlchance]

1. I think Matthew 19 answers your questions.

But it doesn’t.

What is less moral Mark?.. Spending money on a program that at the moment that although is helping a few people, but needs fixing or just cutting off funds and thus the program, which helps no one?

Before I forget… nice attempt to make me out to look like a hypocrite…

So, then, what was the point of you posting the story?

Why do you have a computer?

Primarily I use the computer for work. It is a tool of my profession.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[josephdavid]

Primarily I use the computer for work. It is a tool of my profession.

– Mark L. Chance.

Mine also

Again read Mathew 19 and tell me where I went wrong?

 

[mlchance]

Again read Mathew 19 and tell me where I went wrong?

You went wrong by attempting to apply Jesus’ conversation about what the rich young man must do to enter Heaven as an answer to whether government-run universal healthcare finds a warrant in Scripture.

So, again, when do and to what extent do one person’s needs trump my right to the products of my labor? When do those needs do trump my right, who bears the moral responsibility for meeting those needs? Exactly who is poor? Who is rich? Given the Church’s condemnation of collectivism and socialism, and the Church’s praise and preference for the principle of subdiarity, how can anyone seriously believe government-run universal healthcare (not the emphasis, please) is a good idea?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[josephdavid]

You went wrong by attempting to apply Jesus’ conversation with what the rich young man must do to enter Heaven as an answer to whether government-run universal healthcare finds a warrant in Scripture.

So, again, when do and to what extent do one person’s needs trump my right to the products of my labor? When do those needs do trump my right, who bears the moral responsibility for meeting those needs? Exactly who is poor? Who is rich? Given the Church’s condemnation of collectivism and socialism, and the Church’s praise and preference for the principle of subdiarity, how can anyone seriously believe government-run universal healthcare (not the emphasis, please) is a good idea?

In Matthew 19 sounded like a declaration to me.

What trumps your right versus others needs? Let me say there is nothing wrong with having a nice life style but seems sad when 30,000 children die each day around the world due to hunger and preventable diseases. I would say when we claim to be the wealthiest nation and yet we have 46 million people which abut 13 million of that are children with out healthcare and half of that live in extreme poverty. Whe have the second highest infant mortality rate in the industrialized world (behind Latvia).

Again you confuse the Socialism with the moral responsibility of the Government to make sure the general well being of all Americans are secure. In other words to make sure the few do not take advantage of the many.

“I was ill and in prison and you did not come to comfort me.’ Then they in turn will ask, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or away from home or naked or ill or in prison and not attend you in your needs?’ He will answer them: ‘I assure you, as often as you neglected to do it to one of these least ones, you neglected to do it to me.’” Matthew 25:43-46

“Do not lay up for yourselves an earthly treasure. Moths and rust corrode; thieves break in and steal. Make it your practice instead to store up heavenly treasure, which neither moths or nor rust corrode nor thieves break in and steal. Remember where your treasure is, there is your heart also.” Matthew 6:19-22.

The Catholic Democrat view
On Poverty & Greed

“No one can, without being grossly unfair, make divine Providence responsible for what clearly seems to be the result of misguided governmental policies, of an insufficient sense of social justice, of a selfish accumulation of material goods, and finally of a culpable failure to undertake those initiatives and responsibilities which would raise the standard of living of peoples and their children. If only all governments which were able would do what some are already doing so nobly, and bestir themselves to renew their efforts and their undertakings! There must be no relaxation in the programs of mutual aid between all the branches of the great human family. Here We believe an almost limitless field lies open for the activities of the great international institutions.”
—Humanae Vitae, encyclical of Pope Paul VI, 25 July 1968

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[josephdavid]

oops… typed write into the quotation part haha. My reply is starting from 3rd paragraph on down.

sorry

 

[mary_bobo]

But it doesn’t.



So, then, what was the point of you posting the story?

Primarily I use the computer for work. It is a tool of my profession.

– Mark L. Chance.

OK, kids, lets play nice in the sandbox.

 

[mary_bobo]

This subject is on my mind a lot these days, as my oldest son has cancer (Hodgkin’s Disease) and is currently undergoing treatment.

He has health insurance, which is actually COBRA from my employer. The hurtles that the insurance company is putting up for him to avoid payment for his treatment are phenomenal. Even though this was not a pre-existing condition, they are actually asking for proof or prior coverage for a period in which they themselves covered him! He may be financially ruined, despite having health insurance…for which he has been paying hundreds of dollars per month.

If the U.S. does end up with socialized medicine, it seems to me that the fault will lie with the insurance companies, who I would think would be the biggest losers, at least financially. Their greed, incompetance and apathy may induce the masses to demand government-sponsered health care - which they may regret once they see what it is like.

I think that government-sponsered health care may be Scripturally neutral. If the government taxes us to pay for universal health care, that’s one thing. But the really Scriptural approach, IMHO, is that of the Shriners and the St. Judes Hospitals, who provide the services to those who can’t afford them, supported by voluntary contributions.

You are right about insurance companies. I worked in Quality Assurance for several years in a hospital and the gyrations you have to go through to get them to approve one more day in the hospital it ridiculous. But don’t forget the tort lawyers. They have done much to drive the cost of medicine up.

 

[josephdavid]

Here is a serious question that sort of runs parallel to this conversation of the cost of health insurance and such…

Do you believe that a good chuck of these high costs that the insurance companies are charging us are due to the seemily increasing poor health habits of Americans (poor diet and exercise)?

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Let’s isolate just one quote (with emphases added):

Okay, then. First, no argument. Needs before desires.

But what about rights? Do needs come before rights? IOW, do the needs of the poor trump my right to keep the product of my own labor? If so, what are the limits? If not, then what does that say about my moral obligations? Furthermore, define “rich” and “poor” in a way that makes sense. All the while, keep in mind that mandatory charity is a contradiction in terms.

– Mark L. Chance.

Rights? What are rights?
Are your rights, indeed anything more than not to be forced into need?
Then, have you the right to force anyone else into need?
Yes, you can judge the needy,
Yes you can damn them to hell.
You probably see those as your civil rights.
But those rights, if you claim them, define you as an enemy of Our Lord, and so:
You can have those rights, and you can take them with you to your new kingdom, which you can share with the rich man who pleaded for comfort from Lazarus.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus didn’t try to start any campaigns for the Roman Empire to institute universal healtcare when there was obviously a need for healthcare around the Roman Empire. Did that make Him scriptural or non scriptural?

I don’t think so!

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Jesus didn’t try to start any campaigns for the Roman Empire to institute universal healtcare when there was obviously a need for healthcare around the Roman Empire. Did that make Him scriptural or non scriptural?

I don’t think so!

I think you missread the scriptures.
Jesus indeed did not set up any overtly political movement, but indeed, did his best to disguise it as a purely spiritual movement.
He did though, commonly use the phrase: ‘He who has hearing ears, let him hear!’, and gave quite clear instructions as to how his listeners should behave to one-an-other, and to strangers.
He was clearly instituting a ‘behind-the-scenes’ political movement, which in the end, took over Rome.
Had he not done his politicking in such a ‘hidden’ way, his journey to the Cross would have taken a few hours, never mind a few years.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

So would we be emulating Our Lord if we too concentrated on how He wanted us to treat each other and not in overt campaigns for universal healthcare?

Would that be a “behind the scenes way” of effecting change when it comes to healthcare or must we do more than Our Lord?

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

So would we be emulating Our Lord if we too concentrated on how He wanted us to treat each other and not in overt campaigns for universal healthcare?

Would that be a “behind the scenes way” of effecting change when it comes to healthcare or must we do more than Our Lord?

In Our Lord’s time on Earth, the political climate was one of authority and autocracy. Caesar thought he was a god, and his word was divine. To even suggest that he was mistaken was treason, and blasphemy. The wise, seeking to change the way Caesar thought, would by gentle subterfuge, plant the idea in Caesar’s mind, then praise him for thinking it, then they might achieve their aim and survive.
Today, at least nominally, we have democracy. Our government represents our wishes, or at least, that is the theory.
So how we would treat each-other, is how our government should treat us, for the government represents us, and we are each-other.
If we allow our government to behave in an unGodly manner, then they represent our unGodliness, for we are unGodly to permit it.
Our Lord told us quite clearly how we should treat our neighbours, and strangers, and enemies. He also told us how we should treat the needy, the sick, and those in prison.
By the previous argument, that is how our governments should treat us when we are citizens, foreigners, and enemies, also when we are needy, sick, or in prison.
It is hard to see how from the forgoing, that a Godly people, with a Godly government, can contemplate it unGodly to provide universal medicare, indeed, I cannot see how a godly people can consider the failure so to provide, as anything other than unGodly.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Probably the same way that the Godly Jesus did not go preach to the Greeks–his mission was first to the people of Israel.

The Greeks had a NEED for such teaching. Jesus could provide such teaching. They asked for such teaching. Jesus did not provide such teaching.

The fact that there are needs and the fact that we have the ability to meet such needs does not logically mean that therefore we always have an OBLIGATION to meet those needs.

People die all around the world from starvation. They have a NEED. I could donate some of my money to take care of that need. I don’t donate. Why?

Because I am LIMITED in what I can do. I pay taxes–I support my local parrish which does send some money to feed those starving around the world.

The real question is should I do more and not only that but should the government force me to do more.

That is far from a clear cut yes.

If I see someone on the side of the road hurt should I be a good samaritan. Certainly!

That doesn’t equate to providing universal healtcare for the entire nation.

Let’s face it–that will cost money. Is it money that could be afforded? Yes! Would it help many? Yes!

Is there no cost or downside to spending money in that way? No!

Every dollar spent that way will be money that won’t be spent in other ways.

Now to be sure it is a good thing to help the sick. Does it follow that it should be done on a UNIVERSAL basis regardless of other MISSIONS that would also benefit from that money?

NO!!!

If there is a FINITE amount of money and the amount of money required to meet all needs is INFINITE then is providing universal healthcare good stewardship of the wealth that God has given us?

I say NO!!!

Why? Because of all the other needs that must be met by the government and aren’t being met by the government now.

Could we tax people’s brains out and come up with the money? Of course! We could tax everybody as much as the other socialist nations do to the point to where when the time DID come for defense of freedom of Religion that we would lay down like all the rest of the socialist countries in the world and forfeit our freedom all in the ever ending–never spending enough money of compassionate BAD STEWARDSHIP of our talents.

The same people who advocate universal healthcare are the same people that would have been sympathetic to Judas when the lady wahed Jesus’ feet with expensive perfume.

What was it Judas said “Could this not have been sold and given to the poor”?

Jesus didn’t praise Judas for the sentiment–he REBUKED him!

It is not evil to REBUKE those who say that ANY stewardship of our nation’s wealth that does not include universal healtcare is wrong.

It is not!

Does that mean that we shouldn’t take small steps to cover more and more people? Of course we should take such steps.

But we can’t just go whole hog and say we’re going to provide trillions of dollars in universal healthcare when we have a crisis coming in social security.

Every dollar that is taxed from citizens will be one dollar that our local Catholic parrishes will not have access to!

I would much rather keep paying the retirements of elderly people than to snatch that away to provide universal healtchare.

Of course the tired old refrain is that we can AFFORD it.

Just go ahead and tax everyone’s brains out so we can afford it and you tell me how much wealth our economy will provide or how strong our national defense will be.

Some people believe in a Jesus of their own making. They believe that Jesus would be a Democrat if he lived in the US today and would support socialism in all forms–universal healthcare REGARDLESS of cost.

They would never believe in the Jesus that rebuked Judas. They wouldn’t believe in the Jesus who paid taxes to Caesar knowing that Rome would fight UNJUST wars with it. That just wouldn’t be a LIBERAL enough Jesus for them!

The bottom line of all of this is that I believe on a personal basis that we should do more to take care of the sick and I believe our government could spend its money better to take care of more of them.

Just please spare me the same old pleas that say if we don’t support socialist universal healthcare that we aren’t following Christ.

That is rubbish! Right now I don’t make enough money to help fulfill the needs of healtcare by all the people in the country that need it and guess what–Jesus hasn’t asked me to provide all that money!

He does ask me to be a good steward of what I have and to vote for people that will be good stewards of what my nation has.

That doesn’t include universal healthcare! I wish universal healtcare could be provided while still being a good steward of the nation’s wealth and while still being able to provide for ALL its needs. That is impossible.

The most important thing though is to not let any NEED blind us to Fulfilling all of Christ’s commandments.

Trying to pay for universal healthcare when you don’t have the money is like “casting our pearls before the swine”. Jesus told us not to do that. That is my SCRIPTURAL reason for not supporting universal healthcare!

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Mine also

Again read Mathew 19 and tell me where I went wrong?

Joseph:

I can’t see how our Lord, who was talking to a young rich man who had made had made his wealth into his god and therefore was worshipping a false god, could have been talking about whether people had the right to keep the property they bought with the money they earned or the necessity of creating of creating a government run health-care system.

This scripture says exactly what the Apostle Paul says:

Those who want to be rich are falling into temptation and into a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires, which plunge them into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all evils, and some people in their desire for it have strayed from the faith and have pierced themselves with many pains.

But you, man of God, avoid all this. Instead, pursue righteousness, devotion, faith, love, patience, and gentleness. Compete well for the faith. Lay hold of eternal life, to which you were called when you made the noble confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Tell the rich in the present age not to be proud and not to rely on so uncertain a thing as wealth but rather on God, who richly provides us with all things for our enjoyment. Tell them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous, ready to share, thus accumulating as treasure a good foundation for the future, so as to win the life that is true life.

1 Tim 6:9-12, 17-19 NAB

That, Those who have accumulated riches are to do whatever is necessary to make sure that their God is God and not money, and that includes helping the poorer members of the Church.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

PS.: Has anyone who wants government run healthcare figured out how we are going to keep the government from paying for ABORTIONS? Or, From causing healthcare providers to adopt something such as the Grundegen University Hospital Protocols for End of Life Decisions?

 

[Traditional_Ang]

oops… typed write into the quotation part haha. My reply is starting from 3rd paragraph on down.

sorry

Joseph:

Humanae Vitae was trying to get support for the Right to Life of the Unborn Fetus with much of the reasoning you cited in the previous post, and had nothing to do with Universal health Care or Welfare or anything like that. The rest of the Document had to do with the Church Teaching on Contraception and the effect on marriages and on the Church if we chose to ignore it.

I understand you want to make a point, but taking Scripture out of context and distorting what Pope Paul ViI said in Humanae Vitae isn’t the way to do it.

I have posted what I believe are some real moral concerns (There is NO National Health Insurance System that does NOT pay for and encourage ABORTIONS & ARTIFICIAL CONTRACEPTION), and a practical way that we as Christians can provide health care for our brothers and sisters in Christ. Since 40% of the people in this country claim to be Catholic, and another 40% claim to be some brand of Protestant, what would keep us from forming the country’s largest Healtch Care Group and saying what we would simply all agree NOT to cover (Abortion) and NOT to do (Euthanasia, Human Cloning, Fetal Stem Cell Research)?

They can’t throw us all in jail. And, Wouldn’t this be a reason to TITHE?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Probably the same way that the Godly Jesus did not go preach to the Greeks–his mission was first to the people of Israel.

Actually, to the ‘Lost Sheep of the House of Israel’, in other words to the ten lost tribes, who were in Samaria and Greece, among other places.
In John, reading if the Greeks who approached the disciples, they are referred to as Gentiles.
The Syro Phoenician woman was also referred to as a Gentile, and as such, Jesus refused to have anything to do with her, explaining that it is not good to give the 'bread of the Children (of Israel) to the dogs. Jesus referred to Gentiles as dogs: very insulting! However, when she made a proclamation of faith: ‘But the puppies under the table eat of the crumbs of their MASTER’, he recognised her as one of the ‘Lost Children’ and accepted her, and her request. Note, the Vulgate incorrectly has ‘Masters’ in plural. This is not logical, for table is singular. Some scribe, making a poetical linkage between ‘suorum’ = ‘their’ and ‘dominorum’ = ‘masters’, altered unconciously, ‘domini’ to fit.

The Greeks had a NEED for such teaching. Jesus could provide such teaching. They asked for such teaching. Jesus did not provide such teaching.

No, indeed, he did not provide directly for that need, but he set up an instrument to meet that need, when Paul was commissioned.

The fact that there are needs and the fact that we have the ability to meet such needs does not logically mean that therefore we always have an OBLIGATION to meet those needs.

Oh, yes it does. The message is quite clear. You are to give drink to the thirsty, and food to the hungry, and if you do not, you will be counted among the goats. There is though the tacit understanding that you are not expected to exceed your means.

People die all around the world from starvation. They have a NEED. I could donate some of my money to take care of that need. I don’t donate. Why?

well, yes, you do donate, or more precisely, your government donates on your behalf, tax dollars, which you have implicitly, by your election voting, permitted them to do.

Because I am LIMITED in what I can do. I pay taxes–I support my local parrish which does send some money to feed those starving around the world.

Exactly so. Your tax dollars are calculated in direct relationship to your ability to pay.

The real question is should I do more and not only that but should the government force me to do more.

The choice is always yours: You could mandate your government to do more, or make benevolent use of forces, or you could personally donate more of your time or money.
The latter may make you feel better, but the former is of greater potential.

That is far from a clear cut yes.

If I see someone on the side of the road hurt should I be a good Samaritan. Certainly!

That doesn’t equate to providing universal healthcare for the entire nation.

Let’s face it–that will cost money. Is it money that could be afforded? Yes! Would it help many? Yes!

Is there no cost or downside to spending money in that way? No!

Every dollar spent that way will be money that won’t be spent in other ways.

Now to be sure it is a good thing to help the sick. Does it follow that it should be done on a UNIVERSAL basis regardless of other MISSIONS that would also benefit from that money?

NO!!!

Provided though that these missions are in place, and doing the service that otherwise the government is mandated, or should, by a Godly population, be, to do.

If there is a FINITE amount of money and the amount of money required to meet all needs is INFINITE then is providing universal healthcare good stewardship of the wealth that God has given us?

I say NO!!!

Of course resources are finite, but how much money is wasted on futile wars? That could be better spent on wellfare at home and abroad. The ploughshare make far better friends than the sword.

Why? Because of all the other needs that must be met by the government and aren’t being met by the government now.

Could we tax people’s brains out and come up with the money? Of course! We could tax everybody as much as the other socialist nations do to the point to where when the time DID come for defense of freedom of Religion that we would lay down like all the rest of the socialist countries in the world and forfeit our freedom all in the ever ending–never spending enough money of compassionate BAD STEWARDSHIP of our talents.

You always assume that the stewardship of government is poor, but the government is your instrument, and responsibility. and is potentially your finest tool. You need to make wiser use of it.

The same people who advocate universal healthcare are the same people that would have been sympathetic to Judas when the lady wahed Jesus’ feet with expensive perfume.

What was it Judas said “Could this not have been sold and given to the poor”?

End of part 1