Universal healthcare

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Sadly, we are already beginning to see the fruits of embracing socialism in the name of providing for the poor. If the proposed “religious exemption” becomes law, it will be illegal to be Catholic and work in the healthcare industry.

This is a good example of the power of language and how it used deceptively. The “religious exemption” which sounds like protection is no such thing. It’s Anti-Catholic religious persecution disguised as tolerance and caring.

There is a public comment period on the proposed rule until Sept 30. Many of the Bishops have awaken to the danger and encouraged Catholics to contact their government leaders. I have and suggest others here do likewise. From what we’ve seen from Obama so far, I don’t think it is likely to change the rule though. So we’ll have three options:
  1. Catholic hospitals and charities involved in healthcare all shut down.
  2. Catholic hospitals and charities violate the teachings of the Faith by providing sterilizations and contraception.
  3. Catholic hospitals and charities provide healthcare in a method consistent with the Gospel, and stand ready to take any persecution that comes from the government- fines, imprisionment, slander, etc.
Pax and God Bless.
I’m glad you posted this. Yes, we are seeing the erosion of religious liberty at the hands of HHS, by regulation.

Please see this link for more details. You can use the links provided at the USCCB site to compose and send a comment to HHS objecting to the proposed rule. I urge everyone to do this.
 
I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way truely, but in my opinion we are better off with reform, and letting us have private insurers, than letting the government have absolute authority over healthcare.
What you just described is what the Affordable Health Care for America Act does.

BTW, I kind of like these statements about how horrible the government is at running everything, so I’m kind of curious what you guys think of Veteran hospitals.

Or the US military, BTW. Are private armies better?
 
What you just described is what the Affordable Health Care for America Act does.
No it does not. It’s going to force more people onto governent policies. Employers can either pay for health insurance or pay 8% of the wages for that employ in taxes.

So, if you pay an employee $40k that’d be around $3200 which is much less than most employers pay for insurance for their employees. Also, now you can make 150% of the poverty level and qualify for MA. Funny thing is that with that added in, many employees that work at fast food places and similar pay level places will now qualify for MA and since the penalty for such employers is much lower than paying for insurance so they’ll probably just drop coverage, sending all of them to MA or similar programs.

So, yes, more people will have coverage but most of that increased coverage is going to end up being Government programs. Not to mention the whole thing is only funded for the first 6 years and then we’ll have to find money to continue funding it.

It also seem wrong that people are forced to buy insurance.
BTW, I kind of like these statements about how horrible the government is at running everything, so I’m kind of curious what you guys think of Veteran hospitals.
They are run by the military which has proven to be much more efficient running anything than the rest of the governement.
Or the US military, BTW. Are private armies better?
:rolleyes: Not even worth a respnonse.
 
They are run by the military which has proven to be much more efficient running anything than the rest of the governement.

:rolleyes: Not even worth a respnonse.
Gotcha, so when we say government we don’t consider the military part of the government. Does that exclude the Department of Defense and the Command in Chief?
 
But the Church wants a “universal” system…

Insurance companies deny people with per-existing conditions (like mental illness, Autism, diabetes, cancer), they drop sick people…

All something the Church has condemned…

I’ve got depression and Bipolar disorder and I can’t get insurance through the private sector and I’m forced to rely on Catholic Charities and Medicaid for my medications…

No offense I get the feeling a lot of you would think it’s okay for an insurance company to deny someone like me coverage 😦

My current employer doesn’t offer health insurance either… So I kind of think a universal system would be fairer as long as it bans abortion, euthanasia, and contraception…

I hate relying on Catholic Charities for my medications its embarrassing and degrading… I want a private policy something the affordable care act allows me to have…
 
Gotcha, so when we say government we don’t consider the military part of the government. Does that exclude the Department of Defense and the Command in Chief?
Well, I’m not sure if I should even respond to a snarky want-to-be know it all, but if you read my post I said “the rest of the government”.

When you have some substance come back and add to the discussion and leave the snarky passive aggressive bull at home.
 
Well, I’m not sure if I should even respond to a snarky want-to-be know it all, but if you read my post I said “the rest of the government”.

When you have some substance come back and add to the discussion and leave the snarky passive aggressive bull at home.
“Not even worth a response” is not snarky?

Anyways, I was replying to these type of comments;
Government run health care just makes this even worse, because the government is HUGELY INEFFICIENT in everything it does. Overhead costs are going to be huge, and that will impact how much money the government needs to pay for health care.
To which you replied;
This is 100% true. Governemt would be worse.
But the veteran’s hospitals not only rate higher in patient satisfaction, but they’re more integrated and sophisticated when it comes to computer system integration. So much so, that they funded an open source hospital management system funded by the government that is extremely efficient and amazing (VistA).

When we say government is HUGELY INEFFICIENT (not my words), I wonder why we leave such a big part of the government and what is unique about the Veteran hospitals that can’t be replicated in other instances.

BTW, once again, just a reminder to everybody the current healthcare reform is not a “socialized” system like the ones we see in Europe. Which I actually think is what we should do, but let’s make sure we’re clear on what it is that is being implemented.
 
But the Church wants a “universal” system…

Insurance companies deny people with per-existing conditions (like mental illness, Autism, diabetes, cancer), they drop sick people…

All something the Church has condemned…
The current bill addresses this, have you checked on this recently?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act
I’ve got depression and Bipolar disorder and I can’t get insurance through the private sector and I’m forced to rely on Catholic Charities and Medicaid for my medications…
No offense I get the feeling a lot of you would think it’s okay for an insurance company to deny someone like me coverage 😦
It’s not OK, it’s obscene. However, in a for profit system, it makes sense no?
My current employer doesn’t offer health insurance either… So I kind of think a universal system would be fairer as long as it bans abortion, euthanasia, and contraception…
I hate relying on Catholic Charities for my medications its embarrassing and degrading… I want a private policy something the affordable care act allows me to have…
I will pray for you, and all those who suffer because they can’t afford healthcare. My mother in law died because a private insurance company dragged their feet and fought her to refuse care, so I know your pain.
 
A lot of Catholics want a free market system like the Republicans. How does a free market system ensure that the insurance industry doesn’t abuse it’s positions like denying coverage to people with pre existing conditions or pricing the poor out of the market? All things the Church has condemned. How does a free market system ensure the Church’s definition of universal access and equality in care while protecting life??
It doesn’t. I work in Disease Management, and speak everyday to people who can’t afford their medications, many can’t even afford their co-pays. These are people who are disabled by illness or accident, and having lost their jobs, are barely covered by insurance, or will soon lose it. You all may think you have great insurance, but if you fall ill you may face bankruptcy. Most bankruptcies in this country are related to medical issues.
I favor Medicare for everyone, which would be similar to the VA system, which seems to work well. Care is being rationed right now by the insurance companies, I don’t get why people don’t see that. Treatments and tests are delayed or refused to make a profit for the companies.
Please look at this website, Physicians for a National Health Program, which explains the problem well.
 
Food for thought:

"Every business day in America, 3,700 families file for bankruptcy caused by illness and medical bills, and that number is rising. This shameful situation happens in no other wealthy democracy. It would be a scandal anywhere else. Most medically bankrupt families were middle-class before they suffered financial setbacks. Roughly 60 percent of them had attended college; twenty percent of families included a military veteran or active-duty soldier.

Most astoundingly, 60 percent of the individuals whose illness led to bankruptcy had private health insurance when they got sick." By Rob Stone
Tikkun Magazine, September 16, 2011
 
It doesn’t. I work in Disease Management, and speak everyday to people who can’t afford their medications, many can’t even afford their co-pays. These are people who are disabled by illness or accident, and having lost their jobs, are barely covered by insurance, or will soon lose it. You all may think you have great insurance, but if you fall ill you may face bankruptcy. Most bankruptcies in this country are related to medical issues.
I favor Medicare for everyone, which would be similar to the VA system, which seems to work well. Care is being rationed right now by the insurance companies, I don’t get why people don’t see that. Treatments and tests are delayed or refused to make a profit for the companies.
Please look at this website, Physicians for a National Health Program, which explains the problem well.
Again healthcare will be rationed in some form or another. Before we leap into government sponsored healthcare ask yourself how your overall experience has been with government agencies . Again I don’t mind helping out people who through no fault of their own are in need of help. But when some grossly obese person has a heart attack don’t ask me to pay for it. I have a hideous family history of heart disease I am 61 and force myself to eat right and exercise daily. Just saying that there is going to be a health crisis of huge proportions soon in this country due to obesity.
 
“Not even worth a response” is not snarky?

Anyways, I was replying to these type of comments;

To which you replied;

But the veteran’s hospitals not only rate higher in patient satisfaction, but they’re more integrated and sophisticated when it comes to computer system integration. So much so, that they funded an open source hospital management system funded by the government that is extremely efficient and amazing (VistA).

When we say government is HUGELY INEFFICIENT (not my words), I wonder why we leave such a big part of the government and what is unique about the Veteran hospitals that can’t be replicated in other instances.

BTW, once again, just a reminder to everybody the current healthcare reform is not a “socialized” system like the ones we see in Europe. Which I actually think is what we should do, but let’s make sure we’re clear on what it is that is being implemented.
I’ve been working in medical billing/financing for 10 years and have a masters in health information management. I can tell you the VA’s system isn’t as revolutionary as they think given most large health care companies have been using similar systems for 5-10 years now. The company I work for has had this sort of integrated electronic medical record/billing system for about 8 years now. Before that they had a similar system that was more of a patchwork system but it was integrated as well.

Now these types of systems are a dime a dozen.

When I say the government, I typically mean the entire government, the VA is an exception and that’s because it is run by the military and not directly by DHHS/CMS like medicare. The VA is actually small compared to the overall health care delivery system. It is actually a very small portion of the government’s budget.
 
I’ve been working in medical billing/financing for 10 years and have a masters in health information management. I can tell you the VA’s system isn’t as revolutionary as they think given most large health care companies have been using similar systems for 5-10 years now. The company I work for has had this sort of integrated electronic medical record/billing system for about 8 years now. Before that they had a similar system that was more of a patchwork system but it was integrated as well.
You know VistA is not a billing system right?

BTW, you’re in health information management, this sector in the US is horribly behind countries like Brazil. It’s a scandal we still don’t have integrated health records!
Now these types of systems are a dime a dozen.
Really, can you name me another open source system that comes close to what it does?
When I say the government, I typically mean the entire government, the VA is an exception and that’s because it is run by the military and not directly by DHHS/CMS like medicare. The VA is actually small compared to the overall health care delivery system. It is actually a very small portion of the government’s budget.
But it’s still government run, and rates higher than many private hospitals. I just want to make that clean when people say everything the government does is horrible.
 
Food for thought:

"Every business day in America, 3,700 families file for bankruptcy caused by illness and medical bills, and that number is rising. This shameful situation happens in no other wealthy democracy. It would be a scandal anywhere else. Most medically bankrupt families were middle-class before they suffered financial setbacks. Roughly 60 percent of them had attended college; twenty percent of families included a military veteran or active-duty soldier.

Most astoundingly, 60 percent of the individuals whose illness led to bankruptcy had private health insurance when they got sick." By Rob Stone
Tikkun Magazine, September 16, 2011
And do you know why this is?

It is because we take $15,000/year away from these families and hand it over to Insurance companies, who take it as profit, and when sicknes comes, insurance companies take the opportunity to raise those rate.

If we spent $2,000 per year for catastrophic care that requires renewal until the patient cancelled, and gave the other $13,000 to families to save for medical (or other) expenses, everyone (except the insruance companies) would be better off.
 
You know VistA is not a billing system right?
Yes, I’m aware of that. I was just saying that many systems around today do what VistA does and more.
BTW, you’re in health information management, this sector in the US is horribly behind countries like Brazil. It’s a scandal we still don’t have integrated health records!
You’re right, we don’t have totally integrated EHRs yet. Most people in my business want that, but HIPAA being what it is it’s going to be a long time before that happens.
Really, can you name me another open source system that comes close to what it does?
Opens source? No, but there are many systems that do what VistA does and more. In fact, most of them are so much better overall than VistA that health care companies pay good money for them.
But it’s still government run, and rates higher than many private hospitals. I just want to make that clean when people say everything the government does is horrible.
Nobody said everything the government does is horrible just that the government approach to managing things (generally speaking) ends up being very inefficient. The military and related departments have almost always performed better than other areas of the government.
 
I happen to like the VA and what it does for Veterans.

And in regards to the obese person comment. That is a per-existing condition and those people deserve our compassion and support. Not everyone who is overweight can help. While a lot of overweight people got that way on their own; there’s a good number of them that require drugs that makes them overweight.

Some people take steroids (I’m not talking about athletes either) these people took steroids for either an organ transplant or they have some other medical condition that requires them to take it. Steroids can cause weight gain.

Some people like me (depression and Bipolar) take anti-psychotics and antidepressants all of which cause some kind of weight gain (even with diet and exercise).

I’m only ten pounds overweight but I’m really hurt by some of the comments on here. That some how I’m not worthy of medical care or insurance.

That’s real Christian of you.
 
Opens source? No, but there are many systems that do what VistA does and more. In fact, most of them are so much better overall than VistA that health care companies pay good money for them.
VistA is not for “healthcare companies” it’s for hospitals. And it’s used in the VA, but because it’s open source it can be used by anybody. In fact, there are people who make money by installing it and adapting it in smaller hospitals (like community hospitals).
Nobody said everything the government does is horrible just that the government approach to managing things (generally speaking) ends up being very inefficient. The military and related departments have almost always performed better than other areas of the government.
So let’s see how the military manages that and apply that in other areas. Yes, some people in these forums and many in the political dialog today indicate that everything the government does is inefficient … yet we see examples like this.

I’ve also seen the US government manage things extremely well, I’m originally from Panama and the then US run Panama Canal Commission (which my mother worked in) was an example of this. The Canal Commission was run like a company, and the workplace there was even more professional and efficient than many corporations I know. Not only that, they had to transition it to the Panamanian government, and the Commission did such a great job in transferring knowledge that the Panamanian Commission amazingly efficient and well run in contrast to most of everything else done by the Panamanian government.
 
VistA is not for “healthcare companies” it’s for hospitals. And it’s used in the VA, but because it’s open source it can be used by anybody. In fact, there are people who make money by installing it and adapting it in smaller hospitals (like community hospitals).
Yes, it is for health care companies, most of them own hospitals. My company for instance owns 16 hospitals. We have a system that connects all records (EHRs, billing…ect) into one system that allows our staff to see any record (that they have been given access to view) for any patient that has been seen at one of our hospitals, clinics and other sites. It includes point of care software for providers, nurses and other staff to enter bedside info, print pateint education/instructions, and for providers to view diagnostic lab/radiology results on the spot.

Sure, for a small community hospital without multiple sites/locations VitA may be great but our company owns 16 hospitals and over 60 clincis and another 30 specialty service centers. We also manage about 10 other hospitals, including a few community hospitals, though we don’t own them.

We’ve also subleased our system out to other companies because we’ve done so much development to the system to suit our needs others like it and wanted it.

So, while I’m not say VitA isn’t good for what it is, it’s not state of the art by any stretch.

So let’s see how the military manages that and apply that in other areas. Yes, some people in these forums and many in the political dialog today indicate that everything the government does is inefficient … yet we see examples like this.
I’ve also seen the US government manage things extremely well, I’m originally from Panama and the then US run Panama Canal Commission (which my mother worked in) was an example of this. The Canal Commission was run like a company, and the workplace there was even more professional and efficient than many corporations I know. Not only that, they had to transition it to the Panamanian government, and the Commission did such a great job in transferring knowledge that the Panamanian Commission amazingly efficient and well run in contrast to most of everything else done by the Panamanian government.
I don’t have any doubts about the ability of the government to manage day to day operations, it’s doing it with keeping the bottom line that is the issue and is the inefficiency that I worry about.

I think the goverment does well in day to day operations in areas where unions don’t have a huge stranglehold on things. The USPS would be much more financially efficient if it weren’t for the Union.
 
There are two sides to the health insurance problem:
  1. Most of our health “insurance” isn’t insurance…
Yes, it’s a ripoff. Why does it work?

Because your government gives you and your company a tax break to take health “insruance” benefits rather than take the money directly. Problem with your analysis–the company gets a the same tax break or expense deduction whether they pay you or the insurance company. In the first instance they get a wage deduction, in the second they get an employee benefit deduction. They may save a little on payroll taxes by paying health insurance. Would you use this same argument with regard to wages–the government gives you and your company a tax break to hire you?

So, think for a moment. In a given year, a typical employer based health insurance plan will cost around $10,000 per person. When was the last time you spent $10,000 on health insurance in a year after deductibles, co-pays and 80/20%? Chances are the answer is “never.” Could you cite a source for you per person cost? The number you cite is more than family coverage for our employees. And why do you say after deductibles? Cost is cost

That’s right, you lose money every year on health insurance You are protected against large healthcare costs. Would you say you lose money everyyear on life insurance simply because you don’t die?

Government run health care just makes this even worse, because the government is HUGELY INEFFICIENT in everything it does. Overhead costs are going to be huge, and that will impact how much money the government needs to pay for health care. So are most large businesses. It’s extremely funny to listen to employees gathered around a water cooler–complaining about the government employee’s being inefficient and not working.

What we need medical insurance for is the financially catastrophic and low risk event. Like a heart attack or stroke or cancer. Generally, none of us should ever use our health insurance on an annual basis.

There is also an effect of having costs paid for by health insurance companies: Patients stop caring what health care costs.

Consider two doctors…

Now, if everyone is paying for these doctors out of their own pockets, each doctor gets some patients, because some like the $25 cost, and some want the amenities of the more expensive doctor.

But, if we move to a $20 co-pay for doctor visits, everyone goes to the $100 doctor, and the $25 doctor goes out of business, because patients no longer care what the doctor charges. The $25 doctor then goes and gets a bigger building, with more amenities and charges $120/visit, and people start going there. So the $100 doctor gets more amenities, and charges $150/visit… you get the idea. It is not quite that simple. Insurance companies only cover to a certain negotiated amount. That’s why your bills show the Dr’s office writing off part of their charge–because of their agreement with the insurance company–they can’t charge the “full” rate. I agree with you in theory on this–i.e their is no real market force to control costs ie. the doctors competing on cost and service for actual patients–our insurance company basically gives us a list of Dr’s we can choose from–most of whom will charge us the insurance company the negotiated rate and us a copay + possibly some out of pocket charge depending on the service.

That’s why our health care costs ahve been skyrocketing for so many years: There is no market price control for those with health insurance. That’s also why insurance costs have gone up and coverage has gone down. Insurance companies try to negotiate fixed costs for services from hosptials and such, but now you have a huge amount of contention over these things, and that’s just a recipe for disaster.

How does government fix these things? Government fixes prices for procedures, and hospitals and doctors are forced to live with it. Again, not a good solution. Unless you want doctors leaving their practices because they’re losing money. We had Dr’s when they took pigs in trade for service, made house calls and charged what they thought their patients could afford. So they make $100,000 a year instead of $200,000. Or the surgeon makes $400,000 instead of $800,000. They’re going to quit because of that? Starting in the late 60’s early 70’s we changed the way we compensated Dr’s–that is also a factor in costs going up. Dr’s are now compensated for things they used to do as part of their service. They are not going to lose money. They just tell you that to scare you.

The solution? Repeal the mega tax break companies get for offering insurance on things that ought not be insured. Explain this “mega” tax break please. See above.When patients start caring what non-financially catastrophic care costs, prices will go down. You mean like gas prices? Cause nobody cares what gas costs right? For the insured AND uninsured. ANd people will get more money in their paychecks, or business owners increased profits maybe?
There are no simple answers to complex problems. The above poster is correct in that in order to really have any chance at driving healthcare costs down the ultimate healthcare consumers (you and me) need to have the money to pay for healthcare–then we can shop for the best and most affordable healthcare–which should help to control costs. I just don’t think it is a simple as “repealing” a “tax break” (when did a legitimate expense become a tax break?). There is no guarantee that that will get more money into the employees hand–especially when unemployment is so high–there is no incentive for employers to pay you more.

Peace of Christ,
Mark
 
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