Universal Indult...April 7????

  • Thread starter Thread starter SummaTheo
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The only solution that I see and possiblity for those who prefer the liturgy an traditions prior to Vatican II is for the recognition of an individual Tridentine Rite within the Church with their own Bishops in union with the Pope. Just like how we have various Eastern Rites with their own bishops in union with the Pope, vs a universal “indult.”
 
Psalm45:9:
The only solution that I see and possiblity for those who prefer the liturgy an traditions prior to Vatican II is for the recognition of an individual Tridentine Rite within the Church with their own Bishops in union with the Pope. Just like how we have various Eastern Rites with their own bishops in union with the Pope, vs a universal “indult.”
I can understand this but doing so will just make the problem we have a bigger one.

Traditionally there should only be one bishop per city. There should not be a Latin Bishop, a Byzatnine (Ruthenian) Bishop, a Melkite Bishop, a Ukrainian Bishop, (and so on) for the same city. This was something that was done very recently because the bishops where not tending the flock correctly.

Before this mess we have a bishop would tend to each parish. If a Latin bishop had an eastern parish within in diocese then he would make sure that he had a priest for that Church, he would not just dump one of his Latin priests into the parish and make that eastern parish into a Latin one but that is what started to happen so to combat this Rome created overlapping jurisdictions.

It is not a good system but it works. Also I do not see the creation of a new Latin Church unless there is a mass influx of Anglicans and then I still doubt it would happen.
40.png
SummaTheo:
When I meant by power, I didn’t mean he doesn’t have to answer to him. He still does. What the universal indult will just allow the 1962 Missal to be said without asking for an indult from the local bishop.
But this would remove the power from the bishop and grant it to the individual priest. The priest would have to be obedient in everything but this.

The bishop is the true pastor of each and every parish in his diocese. How can the choice of the Mass be assigned to the priest without stepping on the authority of the bishop?
 
The bishop is the true pastor of each and every parish in his diocese. How can the choice of the Mass be assigned to the priest without stepping on the authority of the bishop?
Why can’t it be? Even today priests have a certain amount of liturgical liberty. The choice of the form of the penitential rite and Eucharistic Prayer is already up to the pastor or celebrant, for example, along with the choice of observing optional memorials, etc., etc. An indult such as been suggested grants nothing new in substance, only in degree. We may agree or disagree with the hierarchy about whether it would be prudent, or helpful to the faithful, but I can’t see how, if lawfully promulgated, it undercuts the authority of the local bishop in a new and different way.
 
40.png
pgoings:
Why can’t it be? Even today priests have a certain amount of liturgical liberty. The choice of the form of the penitential rite and Eucharistic Prayer is already up to the pastor or celebrant, for example, along with the choice of observing optional memorials, etc., etc. An indult such as been suggested grants nothing new in substance, only in degree. We may agree or disagree with the hierarchy about whether it would be prudent, or helpful to the faithful, but I can’t see how, if lawfully promulgated, it undercuts the authority of the local bishop in a new and different way.
But you really cannot compare a celebration of an optional memorial on a ferial day, or the use of whatever canon or penitential rite, to the actual celebration of an entirely different version of the Mass. Unlike celebrating the Novus Ordo in Latin, (which, for some odd reason is hardly done at all though it would be a great solution to a lot of problems,) celebrating the Pian Mass is celebrating a rite that is not the normative rite of the Latin Church. Priests have to be in Communion with their Bishop, and if the will of the Bishop is to have the Novus Ordo be the standard and only allow the Tridentine in very certain circumstances, then going around the Bishop is turning the hierarchical structure, the divinely ordered structure of the Church, on its head.

I mean if the Holy Father allows for a universal indult, Roma locuta, causa finita est, but I just don’t see him doing it because it would cause too much hostility between the Papacy and the Episcopacy.
 
To me, all of this is a matter of service. Our Bishops could drive us really nuts sometimes, and maybe we cannot stand what Father so and so does. But, each Priest no matter how holy or sinful, as St. Francis did, deserves to have his venerated for bringing us Jesus. Each Bishop is a direct successor to the Apostles themselves, and are the fullness of Holy Orders, and have been described as representations of God the Father in their Dioceses.

We rightfully attack liberals for bashing the Pope and saying that the Church is not with it. But, many well-meaning Catholics are righteously indignant about listening to what Cardinal or Bishop says about something, immediately dismissing it offhand. In terms of “non-negotiable issues” like the death penalty or the war or excessive materialism, orthodox Catholics oftentimes nod heads and then completely ignore what John Paul II or Benedict XVI are even saying about these issues. On Liturgical matters, to me, supporting people who are obstinate in schism simply because one prefers an old rite of Mass, as “allowed” as it is, is simply a case of not Thy will, but mine be done.

Holy anger, and standing up for what is right, is good. But so is humility and submssion to proper authority.
 
But you really cannot compare a celebration of an optional memorial on a ferial day, or the use of whatever canon or penitential rite, to the actual celebration of an entirely different version of the Mass.
Why? The former are currently existing legitimate liturgical options; the later would become a legitimate liturgical option if the “universal indult” were promulgated.
Priests have to be in Communion with their Bishop, and if the will of the Bishop is to have the Novus Ordo be the standard and only allow the Tridentine in very certain circumstances, then going around the Bishop is turning the hierarchical structure, the divinely ordered structure of the Church, on its head.
This is entirely true, but if the indult were promulgated then priests making use of it wouldn’t be “going around the Bishop” in any way. Or is the Holy See not competent to permit this?
I just don’t see him doing it because it would cause too much hostility between the Papacy and the Episcopacy
I agree.
On Liturgical matters, to me, supporting people who are obstinate in schism simply because one prefers an old rite of Mass, as “allowed” as it is, is simply a case of not Thy will, but mine be done.
Do you mean to imply that assisting at the '62 Mass, even under the current indult, is morally questionable?
 
40.png
pgoings:
Why? The former are currently existing legitimate liturgical options; the later would become a legitimate liturgical option if the “universal indult” were promulgated.

This is entirely true, but if the indult were promulgated then priests making use of it wouldn’t be “going around the Bishop” in any way. Or is the Holy See not competent to permit this?

I agree.

Do you mean to imply that assisting at the '62 Mass, even under the current indult, is morally questionable?
Of course not. I attend the Indult Mass about three times a month. Attending an SSPX Chapel in my opinion is morally questionable though in my opinion. Why support people who stand outside the Church?

And, of course the Holy See is competent in all matters. That goes absolutely without saying. If it determines that a universal indult is best, that’s the will of the Church, and I will dutifully submit. But, like any topic that has not been formally discussed and deemed official by an act of the Pope or an Ecumenical Council, we are free to argue its merits.
 
40.png
SummaTheo:
Does anybody think the universal indult will be granted?
👍 I am praying that it may be so. :amen: Actually, it has been the instruction the the Tridentine be widely available since the beginning, just some bishops have refused to do so. What I would really like to see is papal directive that the Latin Mass be made widely available in every diocese so that anyone wishing to attend the Tridentine Liturgy would be able to do so.

I should also mentiion that some people here seem to be under the erroneous impression that this means to displace the N.O. That is not what we are talking about. We are expressing a desire to have the Tridentine Liturgy available in addition to the N.O.
 
40.png
pgoings:
Why? The former are currently existing legitimate liturgical options; the later would become a legitimate liturgical option if the “universal indult” were promulgated.
This would handcuff the bishop. It would make the bishop subject to the whims of his clergy.

If a priest decided that he only wanted to celebrate the old Mass yet the parish he serves whats the current Mass what is the bishop to do?
 
This would handcuff the bishop. It would make the bishop subject to the whims of his clergy.
I’m sorry, but this is not an argument, this is empty rhetoric. The authority that bishops possess to regulate the liturgy in their dioceses can vary, depending on the judgement of the Holy See. For example, the indult of '88 authorized the bishops to permit celebrations of the '62 Mass; prior to that they would have had no authority to do so. Similarly, the Holy See has legislated that certain options are up to the legitimate discretion of the pastor or celebrant, such as the use of females as alter servers, the choice of the Eucharistic Prayer for a particular Mass, etc. The “universal indult” would grant further liberty to the pastor or celebrant, and I cannot conceive that is not within the competence of the Holy See to change this.

That said, if you are merely arguing that this permission would be a bad idea (for various pastoral reasons) or that it simply isn’t likely that such a permission would be granted, then it is purely a matter of your opinion, to which you are obviously entitled. Further, I agree with you that, whatever else may be true, it is extremely unlikely that such an indult would be promulgated.
If a priest decided that he only wanted to celebrate the old Mass yet the parish he serves whats the current Mass what is the bishop to do?
That would depend entirely on what rules were set forth in the hypothetical indult. It might be that the bishop and faithful could do nothing in such a case, as would be true today if a pastor wished to use only the second Eucharistic Prayer. If the Holy See grants the right to pastors or celebrants, then the case is closed. Do you believe that this is fundamentally unjust in some way? Or that it violates some inherent principle of ecclesiology? Or is it just a matter of personal preference?
 
40.png
ByzCath:
This would handcuff the bishop. It would make the bishop subject to the whims of his clergy.

If a priest decided that he only wanted to celebrate the old Mass yet the parish he serves whats the current Mass what is the bishop to do?
It seems to be a valid question you raise, until you consider the changes between 1965-1970. The faithful had no say on the matter, and it would be no different today.

What if the priest wanted to celebrate the NO ad orientam, but the faithful opposed this, referring to the tired “priest facing the wall” argument? Should the priest give in? No. He should provide a reasonable amount of catechesis regarding the theology of facing ad orientam, and then proceed to offer Mass in this fashion.
 
Anima Christi:
I heard from a priest that it is expected Pope Benedict will release an indult for any priest to celebrate the Tridentine rite, but only for private masses.
I don’t believe there is any special permission required to say a private Mass (which means without a congregation) according to the '62 missal.
 
40.png
ByzCath:
But this would remove the power from the bishop and grant it to the individual priest. The priest would have to be obedient in everything but this.

The bishop is the true pastor of each and every parish in his diocese. How can the choice of the Mass be assigned to the priest without stepping on the authority of the bishop?
There is already a great deal of flexibility available to a priest which the bishop does not (AFAIK) have the power to rescind. For example, since 1994 a bishop may allow females to serve at the altar but the choice as to whether or not to use them in a parish is up to the priest. A priest may use (within certain bounds) any canon he sees fit, any available penitential rite, an optional collect, etc. I don’t like that situation for the rite (waaaaay to many options, too little uniformity of worship), but it’s the state of affairs at present. None of these options are so large as to compare fairly with a choice of rite; I just wanted to point out that the Roman Rite offers many liturgical options for priests ‘independently’ from episcopal oversight.
 
40.png
ByzCath:
I can understand this but doing so will just make the problem we have a bigger one.

Traditionally there should only be one bishop per city. There should not be a Latin Bishop, a Byzatnine (Ruthenian) Bishop, a Melkite Bishop, a Ukrainian Bishop, (and so on) for the same city. This was something that was done very recently because the bishops where not tending the flock correctly.

Before this mess we have a bishop would tend to each parish. If a Latin bishop had an eastern parish within in diocese then he would make sure that he had a priest for that Church, he would not just dump one of his Latin priests into the parish and make that eastern parish into a Latin one but that is what started to happen so to combat this Rome created overlapping jurisdictions.

It is not a good system but it works. Also I do not see the creation of a new Latin Church unless there is a mass influx of Anglicans and then I still doubt it would happen.
“Not a good system but it works.” I agree that the historical model is one bishop per city. But if the present system was created because certain congregations were not having their needs met and you think it’s working, why not meet the needs of individuals who can’t even form congregations because their bishops aren’t generously responding to their needs as they should? As long as we’re tolerating not just three bishops but three (Catholic) PATRIARCHS of Antioch, I think we can manage some overlapping jurisdictions for the sake of those attached to the Pian missal.

I’m not sure if that’s the system I’d advocate, but I certainly wouldn’t write it off as an option.
 
It would be a start. However, it will take more than that to improve relations with the Society of Saint Pius X. I hope this is a sign of good things to come. 😉
 
catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6313

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/images/pp23-03-06.jpgVatican City, Mar. 23, 2006 (CNA) - As the Pope met today with members of the College of Cardinals, who are in Rome for tomorrow’s Consistory where 15 new cardinals will be added to their ranks, the subjects of the schismatic Saint Pius X Society as well as the use of the Latin missal and retirement age for bishops largely held the floor.

According to CNA’s sources in the Vatican one of today’s main topics of conversation surrounded the possibility of lifting the excommunication on Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the four bishops ordained by him before his death. Their group, the Saint Puis X Society broke away from the Church following the Second Vatican Council.

In addition, the Pope and the Cardinals discussed whether or not they may declare a full amnesty for the free use of Pope V’s Latin missal; and how to do so without betraying the spirit of the Vatican II Council.

The second major topic of conversation surrounded the retirement age for bishops.

Given that life expectancy and quality of life have improved since the original age of 75 was put in place, some cardinals have suggested the possibility of postponing the legal age of retirement to 80.

150 of the 193-member College of Cardinals were in attendance today for a day of prayer and reflection called for by Pope Benedict ahead of the Ordinary Public Consistory–including the 15 which will be incorporated tomorrow. The Vatican said that today’s meetings followed the general format of discussions used prior to last year’s papal conclave.

It seems to me that the major discussion is more about lifting the excommunication of the with the Saint Pius X and Lefebvrists. That is a completely different thing than a general indult.
 
I thought what Christ said needs to be practiced.

“That they ALL may be One.”
And doesn’t the Catholic Church strive to be One within itself? So attempts to unify the two different Lain Rite Masses should be possible.

That’s like in the Catholic East Rutherian Rite if we had people who only wanted the Divine Liturgy only in English and then you’d have those who’d only want it in Old Church Slovanic. But today, we have some parts in Old Church Slovanic but the majority of the Lirurgy is in English…in the U.S. that is.

If WE can’t be unified as One under the Pope, that what kind of image does that give the Protestants and Orthodox about us? :confused:
 
**I’m already seeing the restoration of the liturgy in the Church I attend. It brings me a lot of relief and a thank you to God for answering my prayers. The Latin is really beautiful and it makes me feel so much better.

I can’t believe how much was removed from the Mass due to Novus Ordo. I can see the differences when I compare a normal missal with a Vatican II missal. I have yet to check one of the Post-Vatican II/Latin Ordo missals to see how they compare. It would help me satisfy my curiousity as to how far the restoration will go at my Church.

Thank you, God. Once again, you show us all your Divine Mercy.
**
 
Anima Christi:
I heard from a priest that it is expected Pope Benedict will release an indult for any priest to celebrate the Tridentine rite, but only for private masses.
I think there is no need for an indult in celebrating the TLM privately.
 
40.png
muledog:
Just because most Catholics have been “dumbed-down” by their bishops and liturgists over the past 40 years is no excuse to forbid the celebration of the TLM to those priests and faithful who want it.
40.png
ByzCath:
This is just an insult to all Catholics who favor the current Mass of the Church. I will not respond further to this insult.
You don’t think that we’ve been “dumbed down” over that last few decades? I would think the facts speak for themselves:
  1. Latin has been almost totally eliminated from the liturgy, in spite of what the Council called for.
  2. Sacred Music has all but disappeared from the Mass, replaced by the Haugen/Haas mess that we have to deal with on a regular basis. Inclusive language is more important than theologically correct texts (see recent posts on the Subcommittee on Music in the Liturgy).
  3. The Sunday use of Eucharistic Prayer II on a regular basis, even though the GIRM recommends it to be used only on weekdays. Of course, it’s much shorter than the others, and allows the celebrant - I mean presider - to cut out a couple of minutes in the process.
  4. The use of the least-traditional chants during the Introit, Offertory, and Communion Chants. The GIRM gives 4 options for these chants. The first three are the proper antiphones/psalms from the Missal, Roman Gradual and Simple Gradual, or a psalm from an approved collection. The last option - always used in the U.S. - is for “a liturgical song approved by the Conference of Bishops or Diocesan Bishop.” This invariably leads to Haugen/Hass tunes that are better suited for christian radio than for the celebration of Mass.
  5. The overuse of “ministers” during Mass, including cantors and EMHC (I have no problem with lectors/readers, servers, etc. exercising their proper roles).
  6. Insipid translations of the liturgical books. Anyone with the least amount of knowledge can see how horrible our english translations are. Et cum Spiritu tuo = And also with you? Not hardly.
Try to explain that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a true Sacrifice, and you’ll get laughed at. Tell most teens that we eat the Body and Blood of our Lord during Mass, and they’ll throw a net over you!

Dumbed-down? YOU BET!

P.S. - I have no animosity towards the normative Mass. I attend it weekly, and I also pray the current Divine Office as well.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top