Universal Indult- Implementation

[curious1989]

There’s been a lot of press concerning a universal indult for the TLM. I know nothing is official yet but assuming that it will come down in the near future, I originally was really hopeful but the more I think about it, I’m a little pessimistic that we will see much of any change. At least America.

I live in California and, especially in this state, local bishops and many pastors are openly hostile to anything that smells even the least bit traditional or “Roman.” Now I realize that this supposed indult will force bishops to individually deny priests the right to offer the TLM, however, when it’s very obvious that a bishop frowns on the TLM, it seems very unlikely that a priest would risk incurring a bishop’s wrath by exercising this right.

I can also see bishops using the excuse that in most parishes, the actual buildings have been built or reconfigured in such a way that the TLM would not be possible. I realize that the TLM can be offered almost anywhere, but they will still attempt to use this, and would perhaps deny permission, based on this notion. Many of the older churches and cathedrals in California have been reconfigured. They have ripped out original altars and sanctuaries and moved new altars into the middle of the church. They’ve replaced pews with chairs (with no kneelers) which encircle the new altar. (there are no kneelers). Tabernacles are hidden away. In one cathedral, the bishop’s throne has replaced the tabernacle, directly behind the altar (which sends the message that his Excellency should be the focus of the gathering). It’s almost as if they have used the last 30 years to prepare for this by constructing churches that will not work with the TLM.

Another concern is that, honestly, most NO priests under the age of 60 probably have no idea how to offer the TLM. I know that there are younger priests that are coming out of orders such as Institute for Christ the King with the necessary knowledge, but they will be a minority. I asked a local priest from the institute what he though about the indult and he said that he was worried about just such a problem. NO priests might make mistakes that the 1962 missal simply does not allow.

Any feelings about this? Again, I live in a diocese that is especially liberal. I have heard of priests being told that they could not use ANY Latin in their NO masses. Traditional songs like the Gloria and Kyrie have essentially been banned. I know that these are allowed in the new mass because they sing them on EWTN every day. Yet here, we are admonished for even asking for them. It would be a wonderful thing to finally have a choice but with such resistance to tradition in some areas, I just do not see the radically liberal bishops and priests making any allowances, even when their own Pope asks them to.

 

[mdgspencer]

I hope you are wrong. What about religious order priests, however? Perhaps they would be less reluctant to use it.

There’s been a lot of press concerning a universal indult for the TLM. I know nothing is official yet but assuming that it will come down in the near future, I originally was really hopeful but the more I think about it, I’m a little pessimistic that we will see much of any change. At least America.

I live in California and, especially in this state, local bishops and many pastors are openly hostile to anything that smells even the least bit traditional or “Roman.” Now I realize that this supposed indult will force bishops to individually deny priests the right to offer the TLM, however, when it’s very obvious that a bishop frowns on the TLM, it seems very unlikely that a priest would risk incurring a bishop’s wrath by exercising this right.

I can also see bishops using the excuse that in most parishes, the actual buildings have been built or reconfigured in such a way that the TLM would not be possible. I realize that the TLM can be offered almost anywhere, but they will still attempt to use this, and would perhaps deny permission, based on this notion. Many of the older churches and cathedrals in California have been reconfigured. They have ripped out original altars and sanctuaries and moved new altars into the middle of the church. They’ve replaced pews with chairs (with no kneelers) which encircle the new altar. (there are no kneelers). Tabernacles are hidden away. In one cathedral, the bishop’s throne has replaced the tabernacle, directly behind the altar (which sends the message that his Excellency should be the focus of the gathering). It’s almost as if they have used the last 30 years to prepare for this by constructing churches that will not work with the TLM.

Another concern is that, honestly, most NO priests under the age of 60 probably have no idea how to offer the TLM. I know that there are younger priests that are coming out of orders such as Institute for Christ the King with the necessary knowledge, but they will be a minority. I asked a local priest from the institute what he though about the indult and he said that he was worried about just such a problem. NO priests might make mistakes that the 1962 missal simply does not allow.

Any feelings about this? Again, I live in a diocese that is especially liberal. I have heard of priests being told that they could not use ANY Latin in their NO masses. Traditional songs like the Gloria and Kyrie have essentially been banned. I know that these are allowed in the new mass because they sing them on EWTN every day. Yet here, we are admonished for even asking for them. It would be a wonderful thing to finally have a choice but with such resistance to tradition in some areas, I just do not see the radically liberal bishops and priests making any allowances, even when their own Pope asks them to.

 

[steve_green_2]

Got news for ya.

Even with the coming (hopefully) of the universal indult, Don’t see any real growth or demand for the TLM. Moderists parishes still won’t have them even if a bunch of people sign a piece of paper.

It, IMHO, is basically an attempt to get PX Society to “come back”

What you will see is an even greater number and growth of traditional seminaries and seminarians !!!

 

[kleary]

I do not think you will see much action from the Bishops to stop any TLM’s in their Diocese.

I mean what would it look like for them to stamp out several priests from saying the TLM yet not protesting outside the local abortion clinic?

Anyway unless someone writes to the Diocese and complains I am most sure they wouldn’t even care one way or the other. It will be more work for them to remove the TLM that they may be reluctant to undertake.

Ken

 

[Asperges_Me]

Where to even start???

First I guess we’ll have to wait and see if a Motu Propio ever gets issued. Even if it doesn’t I think that the secular press coverage, however skewed, was great. At least it got people talking.

Second, it will depend on the language of the docuement. If the language is only that of permission, then we’re in for a long road ahead. But hey, look where the TLM was in 1984, almost extinct from the face of the earth, except for some renegade priests or maybe some private Masses.

I think for the TLM to flourish, the language needs to be much stronger than pemission more along the line of “encouraging” the old Missal. And stating in no uncertain terms that the days of ridicule of this Mass are OVER, PERIOD!. Regardless of personal preference, anyone who publically questions the legitimacy of the Mass of Pope Saint Pius V puts their Communion with Rome at jeopardy. Like any organization, all the Vatican has to do is put the word out on the street that their handling and implementation of the Motu Proprio will be a major factor in future appointments, and things will take care of themselves. Then, I think you would get some of the younger bishops in smaller dioceses to start getting on the bandwagon. The old “Spirit of Vatican II” guard could bide their time, but know full well that their resignations will be accepted at 75, no hanging on.

There was another thread on the architecture of the modern Churches. Well, the TLM has been said on the hood of Army Jeeps and we’ve all seen pictures of JP II saying it on a kayak. I think it would be great if some of the first TLM’s were started in modern churches with some improvision of course. Maybe some parishioners could make some portable wooden communion railings. This would show that the TLM is not to be relegated to a museum piece in those precious few churches with the high altar and rederos intact.

Bottom line: There may only be a few rumblings of change at first. But don’t dispair. Who would have ever thought that a strike at a shipyard in Gdansk Poland would in a decade eventually lead to the falling of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union? Miracles can happen! It is my fondest wish that in my lifetime, a pope will finally admit that many grave mistakes were made in the IMPLEMENTATION of VII, and direct that we’re going to start over and finally get it right “per the documents” this time.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

I do not think you will see much action from the Bishops to stop any TLM’s in their Diocese.

I mean what would it look like for them to stamp out several priests from saying the TLM yet not protesting outside the local abortion clinic?

Anyway unless someone writes to the Diocese and complains I am most sure they wouldn’t even care one way or the other. It will be more work for them to remove the TLM that they may be reluctant to undertake.

Ken

I agree the bishops won’t overtly stop the Tridentine Mass, but they will make life difficult for priests who want to say it.

For example, a pastor who decides to offer the Tridentine Mass might get an unexpected “transfer” or take a “sabbatical” while a new pastor is installed. This happened at a parish here in Chicago even though he had an indult from Cardinal George.