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CatholicNick
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I think in the Old Rite it is Mandatory?
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Resurrexit
Guest
Probably. They did away with loads of silly things, like saying Mass.
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tee_eff_em
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It is not specific to ritual, but perhaps under the previous Code of Canon Law.
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Unfinished
Guest
Made me laugh.
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palmas85
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I would agree with that but it does bring up an interseting scenario.But this was always going to be a problem anyway. The best that this “universal indult” was going to do was to allow the unrestricted ability to say the TLM. It was never going to replace the NO, and it’s clear that the pope is trying to emphasize that the NO is the primary form of the Mass for the Latin west, and that’s not going to change, period.
Seems like the only way around this at your parish is to get rid of your Bilingual Mass and replace it with a Latin NO that everyone could follow (as Vatican II encouraged). Hmmm… another way Benedict is trying to work in reform?
Why wouldn’t it happen? Or better why couldn’t it?
They dumped the Pauline Rite on us with precious little warning of what was coming and didn’t seem in the least concerned whether we cared or not or what impact it would have on the Church… So, why not again? I mean objectively speaking we can say that the Pauline Rite has had and continues to have its share of problems. Problems which by and large far outshadow the problems of the Traditional Mass which always seem to come down to done way too fast, speed Masses I think they call them, not enough active participation, whatever that really means and using a language that no one understands.
Well, I’ve been to weekday Pauline Masses that run about 15 minutes or so, and I’ve seen Pauline Masses where the only active participation consisted of throngs of Extraordinary Ministers virtually rushing the Altar and have been to numerous Pauline Masses where the language used was not one of the four I speak. And that is here in San Diego. I didn’t even have to leave home…
So in reality what has really changed? As far as I can see the only thing that has changed is how the Mass is celebrated by both the Priests and the people. Most people just seem to be going through the motions these days and really don’t seem to care much or have any respect for the Sacrament itself. Priests don’t follow the rubrics and neither do the congregations. People complain about crucifixes being on the altars and Priests wear rainbow sashes with dignity pins. In fact, if the Pauline Rite was supposed to bring us together liturgically in a superior fashion and lift us spiritually higher than did the Traditional, it is one colossal failure. That in spite of the cute little additions that we now have like Barney Blessings and Hip Hop Masses where banners hang proclaiming Jesus is my Homie, showing Christ wearing a bandana and shades, sporting a Virgen de Guadalupe Tee Shirt.
So in the absence of any noticeable improvements or heck any improvements anywhere at all, that came from it, why not go back to something that worked and worked well?
I know it won’t happen, but it is an interesting scenario.
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AJV
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If you don’t mind me saying so, that’s not a very nice remark to make given the topic, and especially if you’re not sure about prior legislation on the topic.
I do not think that you will find in the 1917 Code legislation requiring priests to say Mass daily.
And, contrary to your comment, the current Code encourages frequent celebration and “earnestly recommends” (no. 904) a daily celebration, even without the presence of the faithful.
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Unfinished
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Wow. This whole post just made be say “Amen.” I couldn’t of said it better myself.
But in reality, the people have changed now and the Pope knows this. I think if this indult goes well (decent at least) and the Tridentine Mass can be said alongside the Novus Ordo, eventually it may get bad enough to where more people start fleeing to the Latin Mass.
Maybe 100-150 years from now the Latin Mass might be exclusive again. But that seems about normal, it takes years for things to happen. We are living in history ladies and gents. 1000 years from now (if Christ has not come yet) they may look back on our 200 years and say “Wow, the Church was in horrible shape!” then they will look to themselves, because priests started using Space Muffins for Mass and making the concecration invalid.
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AJV
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Whoops! My bad
I interpeted “probably” to mean that the obligation of daily Mass was removed.
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mcliffor
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I wish someone like the Pope would just admit that publicly. Most people still think we’re living in a new springtime.
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Fuerza
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Just out of curiosity, would there be anything canonically wrong with having a “modified” Tridentine Mass be the norm for the Church? What I mean is having a Tridentine style Mass mostly in the vernacular, but with a Greek Kyrie and a Latin Consecration (and perhaps a few other key prayers at the discretion of the priest). Although I know it will probably never happen, it seems to me to be a perfect compromise between the two sides.
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AJV
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Such was the case in 1965.
But I don’t know how many people it will satisfy. Some people want nothign in the vernacular, some want everything.
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Unfinished
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The Church is ALWAYS in bad shape, we are just fighting a new enemy these years.
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palmas85
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The Mass that was used between 65 and 70 was essentially a hybrid. It was primarily the Traditional Mass. done mostly in the vernacular. Some places did it differently, there was some experimentation allowed and encouraged. The following though is typical and comes from a 1966 Maryknoll Missal which I have stashed away.
Prayers at the Foot of the Altar remained, The confiteor full version was still there. The Gloria was said, full version with the phrase to men of good will, instead of to his people on earth. The Kyrie remained in Greek, full version, one reading, meditation and alleluya hymns and the Gospel which were called The Liturgy of the Word of God, The Creed in the vernacular with a genuflection:bigyikes: the Canon was in Latin as was usually the Our Father, prayed by the people and the priest aloud. Communion was still done kneeling and received on the tongue. :tsktsk: The phrase used by the Priest during communion was the Body of Christ, in the vernacular. The prayers that were after the dismissal in Low Masses, 3 Hail marys Hail Holy Queen, Prayer to St Michael the Archangel and the Scared Herat of Jesus have mercy on us were removed. There was another prayer to the Holy Trinity that was placed right before the final blessing.
It wasn’t that bad, looked almost exactly the same as the Traditional Mass, was reverent and worked pretty well. But it wasn’t different enough, it wasn’t new enough and it still looked like the Traditional Mass . It just didn’t look or feel like a communal supper gathering. In short it didn’t go far enough to satisfy the reformers who wanted something new and improved that would usher in the new age and be inoffensive to one and all.:dancing:
So it got scrapped and we got the Pauline. And we all know what some people have done to that.
Anybody want a Barney blessing???
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captainmike
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A couple of questions from a new convert (being confirmed tomorrow):
- What is SSPX?
- What’s wrong with the current Mass (except that it’s not in Latin)?
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gelsbern
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For those interested, here is the order of Mass according to the 1965 Missal. coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/
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Unfinished
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lol. Pick me! Pick me!
I am a traditionalist, and I would be happy with the 1965 missel. Only thing I would add is the prayers after low Mass. For the “Sunday Only” types, it is the only time they hear a Hail Mary.
The SSPX is the Society of Saint Pius X (The Tenth)
They are a group currently in schism. For a couple of reasons, but there are plenty of threads around talking about why. Basicly, they only celebrate the 1962 Latin Mass and think the second Vatican council was a fallacy.
Nothing is “technically” wrong with the new Mass. Us traditional types just prefer the Latin Mass because the new Mass often lacks certain things… like reverence (Not all! But I fear the “Halloween Mass” type is becoming more common then what the Novus Ordo is supposed to look like). And it is usually abused by priests not going by the rubrics. That is why this universal indult for the Traditional Latin Mass is exciting news. More priests might be able to celebrate it without written permission from the Bishop.
PS. If you have never been to a Traditional Latin Mass, go. As soon as possible. That is the best way for us to explain the differences. If you had been born and raised in the TLM, and went to the new Mass, you wouldn’t even recognize that it was a Mass. (Well, you might, but you would be thinking “What the HECK is going on!?”)
PPS. Congrats! Welcome home!
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Trevelyan
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A new enemy? I don’t think so.
The Church is and always has been and always will be “in bad shape” thanks to the OLD Enemy.
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