Universal Jursidiction

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We don’t even know if Pope St. Damasus wrote that decree. In fact, we don’t even know if that decree is genuine to Pope St. Gelasius, although it is attributed to him, and textual criticism of the document indicates that it could be a forgery. I see little reason to give it more consideration than I do the Decretals of Isidore or the Donation of Constantine.
I was using it as a representation of the position I am arguing shown in all the quotes I posted a few pages back that show Fathers and later pre-Great-Schism writers unequivocally expressing their belief that the Roman primacy was by Divine Right (St. Maximos, St. Theodore, Theodore Abu Qurrah.) Although I would argue that Jurgens argues for Pope St. Damasus writing that and even if not it is still a historical witness that jives w/ what I see over and over again from Fathers both East & West. I could just as well cite St. Methodius on his commentary on Canon 28:

“It is not true, as this canon (Canon 28 of Chalcedon) states, that the holy fathers gave the primacy to old Rome because it was the capital of the Empire; it is from on high, from Divine grace, that this primacy drew its origin. Because of the intensity of his faith, Peter, the first of the Apostles, was addressed in these words by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself: “Peter, lovest thou me? Feed my sheep.” That is why in hierarchical order Rome holds the pre-eminent place and is the first See. That is why the leges of old Rome are eternally immovable, and that is the view of all the Churches.”

Source: catholic-legate.com/Apologetics/CARD/Entries/ThePapacy/ChurchFathersOnThePapacy.aspx

Here being flat out rejected is the innovation I have been objecting to so loudly.
 
I was using it as a representation of the position I am arguing shown in all the quotes I posted a few pages back that show Fathers and later pre-Great-Schism writers unequivocally expressing their belief that the Roman primacy was by Divine Right (St. Maximos, St. Theodore, Theodore Abu Qurrah.) Although I would argue that Jurgens argues for Pope St. Damasus writing that and even if not it is still a historical witness that jives w/ what I see over and over again from Fathers both East & West. I could just as well cite St. Methodius on his commentary on Canon 28:

“It is not true, as this canon (Canon 28 of Chalcedon) states, that the holy fathers gave the primacy to old Rome because it was the capital of the Empire; it is from on high, from Divine grace, that this primacy drew its origin. Because of the intensity of his faith, Peter, the first of the Apostles, was addressed in these words by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself: “Peter, lovest thou me? Feed my sheep.” That is why in hierarchical order Rome holds the pre-eminent place and is the first See. That is why the leges of old Rome are eternally immovable, and that is the view of all the Churches.”

Source: catholic-legate.com/Apologetics/CARD/Entries/ThePapacy/ChurchFathersOnThePapacy.aspx

Here being flat out rejected is the innovation I have been objecting to so loudly.
But then we have Trullo which reconfirmed canon 28 of Chalcedon. And then we also have the Fifth Ecumenical Council which excommunicated the pope for sharing in the impieties of Theodore and Nestorius, and defied his decree in his First Constitution that Theodoret’s Anti-Cyrillian writings and Ibas’ Letter to Mari should not be anathematized, a decree which he wrote would nullify by the authority of the Apostolic See any decree to the contrary, and would depose any clergyman who dared to teach otherwise. You mean to tell me that the Fourth and Fifth Ecumenical Councils and the Synod of Trullo were filled with a bunch of innovators? Nonsense.

Furthermore, Theodore Abu Qurrah’s theology is admittedly (by the admission of Jimmy Likoudis himself, a Latinophrone and apostate from Orthodoxy) “extraordinary”, precisely because it is not to be found in other Eastern fathers. There is also, as far as I know, one and only one passage attributed to St. Maximus which comes close to talking about the papal claims to universal and immediate jurisdiction, and this passage is from a letter which exists only in Latin and is of doubtful authenticity.
 
But then we have Trullo which reconfirmed canon 28 of Chalcedon. And then we also have the Fifth Ecumenical Council which excommunicated the pope for sharing in the impieties of Theodore and Nestorius, and defied his decree in his First Constitution that Theodoret’s Anti-Cyrillian writings and Ibas’ Letter to Mari should not be anathematized, a decree which he wrote would nullify by the authority of the Apostolic See any decree to the contrary, and would depose any clergyman who dared to teach otherwise. You mean to tell me that the Fourth and Fifth Ecumenical Councils and the Synod of Trullo were filled with a bunch of innovators? Nonsense.
I want to reiterate that I am personally focusing on the fact that the Roman Primacy (leaving aside that we disagree what that means) is by Divine Right and was not bestowed upon Rome by the Church. With that being said, I don’t see what the 5th Ecumenical Council has to do with that; I’m just talking about the origin of Roman Primacy. Regarding Chalcedon, Canon 28 was rejected by the Bishop of Rome. What I am saying is that “the theory of a merely canonical primacy, deriving from convention or from Rome’s location as seat of the Empire is a later and exclusively Byzantine development.” (Source: calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/archbishop-minnerath-on-rome-the-papacy-and-the-east/) And this is the innovation I am opposing, you are putting words into my mouth if you are claiming that I am saying: “the Fourth and Fifth Ecumenical Councils and the Synod of Trullo were filled with a bunch of innovators.” And this “theory” I have been objecting to so vociferously was not the view of all Byzantines as my citations of St. Theodore, St. Maximos, and St. Methodius show; I believe I could produce others too.
Furthermore, Theodore Abu Qurrah’s theology is admittedly (by the admission of Jimmy Likoudis himself, a Latinophrone and apostate from Orthodoxy) “extraordinary”, precisely because it is not to be found in other Eastern fathers. There is also, as far as I know, one and only one passage attributed to St. Maximus which comes close to talking about the papal claims to universal and immediate jurisdiction, and this passage is from a letter which exists only in Latin and is of doubtful authenticity.
In keeping with my thesis that I just reiterated above, the citations by St. Maximos, St. Theodore, Theodore Abu Qurrah and now St. Methodius show a belief in this thesis, and this is not an exhaustive list. The testimony of the Gospels, which these writers cite, prove my thesis as well. Overall, Theodore Abu Qurrah’s words reflect this belief even though he goes on to say some things that may well have not been said by others about the Petrine texts. It is these parts which may be uncommon, not the overall big picture of the Roman Primacy by Divine Right that the citation reflects. I think you are losing sight of the forest for the trees. With this being said, I completely disagree with your saying that “it is not to be found in other Eastern fathers”, if the “it” is that the Roman Primacy is by Divine Right. I have seen plenty of evidence from Eastern Fathers that back up my thesis, a handful which I have quoted. The text from St. Maximus I quoted a few pages back is from the “Catholic Encyclopedia” (and you still mention jurisdiction, remember, I am only talking about Roman Primacy by Divine Right), and I would say that the burden of proof is on you if you are going to claim that it is not authentic to prove so.
 
Also, the Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople wrote the following regarding Canon 28 of the Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon to Pope St. Leo (Pope St. Leo as you know rejected Canon 28 when ratifying the Council):

“‘As for those things which the universal Council of Chalcedon recently ordained in favor of the church of Constantinople, let Your Holiness be sure that there was no fault in me, who from my youth have always loved peace and quiet, keeping myself in humility. It was the most reverend clergy of the church of Constantinople who were eager about it, and they were equally supported by the most reverend priests of those parts, who agreed about it. Even so, the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness. Therefore, let Your Holiness know for certain that I did nothing to further the matter, knowing always that I held myself bound to avoid the lusts of pride and covetousness.’ (To Pope Leo, Ep 132 [on the subject of canon 28 of Chalcedon], 451 A.D.)”

Source: catholic-legate.com/Apologetics/CARD/Entries/ThePapacy/ChurchFathersOnThePapacy.aspx

Like I said, the view put forward in Canon 28 was not a view that all Byzantines held.
 

I got that…Jon…but in today’s lingo…and development…and understanding…and still, no matter how you rationalize it…you are still protestant…and that which drives it today.
Equal to, as in Nicea canon 6.
Ah…so by your own response here…prior to 1054…there was some sort of ranking with Rome being ranked first and always…and Constantinople wanted that for itself. And before Constantinople was ranked second…it was not second…I think it was Alexandria that was second…before Constantinople took the 2nd spot.

So…there some sort of ranking…🤷
Perhaps it has to do with the fact that Luther’s call for reform was a threat to a money stream for Rome. 🤷
Jon…my citing Catherine had nothing to do with the money stream in Luther’s time…I am citing Catherine as a model to effect reforms…whatever is needed by the Church at the time.

Do you think had Luther acted like Catherine…talking and exhorting the pope…and winning the pope over to her side…with her wisdom and humility…and without getting excommunicated in the process.

Do you think Luther could have won over those against him had he followed Catherine’s example? 🤷
We didn’t make the stumbling block. Neither did Orthodoxy or the early Church.
How do you know that Jon? As you yourself cited above…Constantinople wanted to buck tradition and wanted to be equal or above Rome…🤷
uote:
Can the Reformation even succeed, can there be unity without the bishop of Rome?
Yes, and no.
Well…which one is it Jon…a yes or a no? Can you have both or only one and not the other?
We offer the alternative of, by dialogue, a return to an understanding of primacy being that which was understood in the early Church, for the way that the Bishop of Rome is opposed to Christ is in the claim that he is supreme among all the bishops, claiming universal jurisdiction, and in the claim that salvation can only be found through being in communion with him.
Okay…but which understanding of primacy?

How do you know that the development of what had occurred to the papacy is not without the guidance of the HS for the church as the world and the faith grew…just as it started with a mustard seed and has grown to a big ole oak tree?

And which one do you think would serve the Christianity better in today’s world…the model of Orthodoxy or that of Rome?

If the Church had to speak as one…if not the bishop of Rome…who or what is the alternative do you offer?
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I can honestly say as an outsider looking in, and maybe similarly to what some of the Lutherans had said. If the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics came into full communion, then I too would also enroll in RCIA or return to the confessional under a Greek Orthodox priest so that I might once again come into communion with the Church. Being that I apostatized from Orthodoxy, I’ve heard that only confession is required for people such as myself.

But both sides have a very different understanding of what “Primacy” means, and honestly it leaves an outsider as to not sure what to think. Does the Church possess the “Fullness of the Faith” and if so, then which one? What if I’m wrong after I made my decision? It seems to me to be almost simpler to go to a local Anglican, Lutheran, or other Protestant service – and have a daily prayer rule to follow. Growing closer to God through an active spiritual praxis seems to be very helpful – but still doesn’t help me make a decision.
 
I want to reiterate that I am personally focusing on the fact that the Roman Primacy (leaving aside that we disagree what that means) is by Divine Right and was not bestowed upon Rome by the Church. With that being said, I don’t see what the 5th Ecumenical Council has to do with that; I’m just talking about the origin of Roman Primacy. Regarding Chalcedon, Canon 28 was rejected by the Bishop of Rome. What I am saying is that “the theory of a merely canonical primacy, deriving from convention or from Rome’s location as seat of the Empire is a later and exclusively Byzantine development.” (Source: calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/archbishop-minnerath-on-rome-the-papacy-and-the-east/) And this is the innovation I am opposing, you are putting words into my mouth if you are claiming that I am saying: “the Fourth and Fifth Ecumenical Councils and the Synod of Trullo were filled with a bunch of innovators.” And this “theory” I have been objecting to so vociferously was not the view of all Byzantines as my citations of St. Theodore, St. Maximos, and St. Methodius show; I believe I could produce others too.
You are calling them innovators, for they clearly denied this principle, and thus they fall under your condemnation as “innovators.” But frankly, I hold fast to the fathers of the Ecumenical Councils (whom you condemn), whose collected wisdom clearly reflects the catholic tradition far better than the opinions of a few individuals here and there. It is a fact that the Fourth Ecumenical Council made a canon stating that the bishop of Rome received his primacy because of the preeminence of the city of Rome in the empire, that the Fifth Ecumenical Council excommunicated the bishop of Rome with no regard for whatever primacy by divine right he supposedly had, and that the Council of Trullo reaffirmed Canon 28 of Chalcedon, and these facts are not so easily wiped away, no matter who you pull your proof texts from. For if the divine origins of the primacy of Rome are a dogma to be believed de fide, you implicate these many pious fathers in heresy, something both unthinkable and impious.
In keeping with my thesis that I just reiterated above, the citations by St. Maximos, St. Theodore, Theodore Abu Qurrah and now St. Methodius show a belief in this thesis, and this is not an exhaustive list. The testimony of the Gospels, which these writers cite, prove my thesis as well. Overall, Theodore Abu Qurrah’s words reflect this belief even though he goes on to say some things that may well have not been said by others about the Petrine texts. It is these parts which may be uncommon, not the overall big picture of the Roman Primacy by Divine Right that the citation reflects. I think you are losing sight of the forest for the trees. With this being said, I completely disagree with your saying that “it is not to be found in other Eastern fathers”, if the “it” is that the Roman Primacy is by Divine Right. I have seen plenty of evidence from Eastern Fathers that back up my thesis, a handful which I have quoted. The text from St. Maximus I quoted a few pages back is from the “Catholic Encyclopedia” (and you still mention jurisdiction, remember, I am only talking about Roman Primacy by Divine Right), and I would say that the burden of proof is on you if you are going to claim that it is not authentic to prove so.
I bring up jurisdiction because that is what you need to demonstrate, in order to justify the Vatican’s dogma on the matter, that the Church of Rome has universal and immediate jurisdiction, you need to show that this has always been believed.

And I have already given good reasons for doubting the authenticity of St. Maximus’ letter to Peter. It does not exist in Greek and does not seem to have been widely known.
 
I need to back up in order to understand your position better.

Do you see Peter as having Divine Right?

and

What is your understanding of his Divine Right, if applicable?
It is a fact that the Fourth Ecumenical Council made a canon stating that the bishop of Rome received his primacy because of the preeminence of the city of Rome in the empire, that the Fifth Ecumenical Council excommunicated the bishop of Rome with no regard for whatever primacy by divine right he supposedly had, and that the Council of Trullo reaffirmed Canon 28 of Chalcedon, and these facts are not so easily wiped away, no matter who you pull your proof texts from. *For **if ***the divine origins of the primacy of Rome are a dogma to be believed de fide, you implicate these many pious fathers in heresy, something both unthinkable and impious.
This would then answer the question in the negative. Sounds very protestant on prima facie. It also explains your position extremely clear if this is the case.
 
Again, I find the understanding of the Latin and Eastern Churches very complex, and particularly so historically.

But the only statement that I can reiterate is that the primacy of the pope was defined immediately prior to the collapse of Christianity regarding the Great Schism and forthcoming Protestant Reformation.

Look at the USA, Christianity being the greatest voting bloc and over 36,000 Christian sects all not wanting to even sit together to worship Christ.

In any Roman Catholic parish, you have about as many different opinions in there as you do members.

Accepting the defined papacy today prevents what has happened to Christianity, especially in our country.

The simple reasoning is very evident of what happens when you don’t accept the papacy and the role of St. Peter.
 
You misinterpret the evidence, because you read your second millennium assumptions about ecclesiology into a first millennium text. Historically, all bishops had the authority excommunicate other bishops (indeed, the very word implies a breaking of eucharistic communion between two communities). Historically, however, being excommunicated by one bishop did not mean that all other bishops must follow suit (which is the second millennium ecclesiological assumption which you force upon the text). This is why Eusebius writes not that Victor effectively cut the Asian Churches off, but only that he attempted to do so (newadvent.org/fathers/250105.htm see chapter 24, 9.) Eusebius clearly reports that this did not please the bishops, and that they rebuked him sharply. Nowhere does he report however, that they obeyed or humored Pope Victor’s attempt to cut the Asian Churches off. To read the text in that way assumes an ecclesiology which did not exist at that time.
  1. Victor felt it was within his authority to take action against those Asian churches that did not follow the same liturgical calendar observed by the West. IOW, Victor clearly thought he had jurisdiction over them.
The fact that Asian bishops could or did excommunicate Rome in tit-for-tat fashion would have no import in Rome since a) Rome’s excommunication of the Asian churches already severed the relationship and b) being cut off from secondary bishops would mean little to Rome while being cut off from the primacy would (or should) matter a lot to the lesser churches. It still should.
Nonsense. The text never says that they did not question his authority to do so. The very fact that they rebuked him (according to Eusebius) for disturbing the peace of the churches, however, indicates the opposite if anything, because those who are in positions of absolute authority are above being rebuked by their inferiors.
  1. Nope. The Bishops rebuked Victor for “disturbing the peace” but not for overstepping his authority. No one seems to have expressed any doubt about whether or not it was within his right and authority to excommunicate…they just disagreed with the wisdom of doing so.
Pure eisegesis. Nowhere does St. Irenaeus recall that Anicetus gave Polycarp permission to maintain his observance of Easter on 14th Nissan. You are imagining that into the text. The text clearly says that since neither could convince the other to adopt their usage, the two decided that it should not be an issue which would break the peace between them.
I concede your point about “permission”. The text does not support what I posted.

However, this does not detract from my argument which is that Irenaeus did not contend that Victor simply didn’t have the authority to cut off the Eastern churches; he argued from the vantage point of historical precedent. That seems to suggest rather strongly that Victor’s authority to act in the Asian regions was not in question.
 
It boils down to Divine Right. If they don’t accept it, then it is a moot point.

The jurisdictional argument, while appealing, doesn’t really take into consideration the manner in which it is to be exercised.

Let’s see an analogy (hopefully it makes sense):

Immigration laws.

In the U.S. the Federal government has the jurisdiction to enforce immigration laws. A state cannot deport a foreign national as only the country (U.S.) has the jurisdictional authority to enforce and exercise this extraordinary action.

Does Arizona’s denial of this jurisdictional authority by the Federal government have any bearing on the authority of the United States to enforce immigration laws?

No. Bottom line - only the country can enforce this authority.

In like manner - having some Bishops deny the jurisdictional authority of Rome - has no effect to the inherited Divine authority given to Peter, other than dissension. Regardless of how this authority was enforced in the early formation period of the Church.

But like previously said - the point is moot if there is no agreement on Peter’s Divine Right.
 
And I have already given good reasons for doubting the authenticity of St. Maximus’ letter to Peter. It does not exist in Greek and does not seem to have been widely known.
Cavaradossi,

I do plan on responding to your last response to me but I would like to clear this matter up. The citation I gave earlier of St. Maximos is from entry on him and it is as follows:Catholic Encyclopedia’s
The extremities of the earth, and all in every part of it who purely and rightly confess the Lord look directly towards the most holy Roman Church and its confession and faith, as it were to a sun of unfailing light, awaiting from it the bright radiance of the sacred dogmas of our Fathers according to what the six inspired and holy councils have purely and piously decreed, declaring most expressly the symbol of faith. For from the coming down of the incarnate Word amongst us, all the Churches in every part of the world have held that greatest Church alone as their base and foundation, seeing that according to the promise of Christ our Saviour, the gates of hell do never prevail against it, that it has the keys of a right confession and faith in Him, that it opens the true and only religion to such as approach with piety, and shuts up and locks every heretical mouth that speaks injustice against the Most High.
Immediately before this quote it says:

“After the Ecthesis had been withdrawn, and the Type, Typos, substituted by the Emperor Constans, St. Maximus was present at the great Lateran council held by St. Martin at his instance in 649. He wrote from Rome (where he stayed some years)…” (Ibid.)

I don’t think this is the citation you are referring to when you say “St. Maximus’ letter to Peter”. That one may be found in the article because it says:

"Pyrrhus had declared that he was ready to satisfy Maximus as to his orthodoxy. The latter says he would have written to Peter before

‘]but I was afraid of being thought to transgress the holy laws if I were to do this without knowing the will of the most holy see of Apostolic men, who lead aright the whole plenitude of the Catholic Church, and rule it with order according to the divine law.’]"

And the article follows:

"The new Ecthesis is worse than the old heresies—Pyrrhus and his predecessor have accused Sophronius of error—they persuaded Heraclius to give his name to the Ecthesis:

‘]they have not conformed to the sense of the Apostolic see, and what is laughable, or rather lamentable, as proving their ignorance, they have not hesitated to lie against the Apostolic see itself . . . but have claimed the great Honorius on their side. . . . What did the divine Honorius do, and after him the aged Severinus, and John who followed him? Yet further, what supplication has the blessed pope, who now sits, not made? Have not the whole East and West brought their tears, laments, obsecrations, deprecations, both before God in prayer and before men in their letters? If the Roman see recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus, anathematizes the see of Rome that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he be in communion with the Roman see and the Church of God… It is not right that one who has been condemned and cast out by the Apostolic see of the city of Rome for his wrong opinions should be named with any kind of honour, until he be received by her, having returned to her — nay, to our Lord — by a pious confession and orthodox faith, by which he can receive holiness and the title of holy… Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman see, for if it is satisfied all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to persuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed pope of the most holy Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic see, which from the incarnate Son of God Himself, and also by all holy synods, according to the holy canons and definitions, has received universal and supreme dominion, authority and power of binding and loosing over all the holy Churches of God which are in the whole world — for with it the Word who is above the celestial powers binds and looses in heaven also. For if he thinks he must satisfy others, and fails to implore the most blessed Roman pope, he is acting like a man who, when accused of murder or some other crime, does not hasten to prove his innocence to the judge appointed by the law, but only uselessly and without profit does his best to demonstrate his innocence to private individuals, who have no power to acquit him.’]"

Source: Chapman, John. “St. Maximus of Constantinople.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 10. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1911. 29 Aug. 2013 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10078b.htm.

(Note: I have entered the’] )

So a couple of things:

1.) The very first citation I gave above (which is the one I gave earlier in this thread), are you claiming that is St. Maximus’ letter to Peter? I don’t think it is.

2.) Regarding St. Maximus’ letter to Peter, I believe if you look back, you haven’t given me any reason(s) why you believe it is of doubtful authenticity (except for what you just said.) What is your source?
 
Ok… taking off my Lutheran hat, and just looking at the bible with my best intentions of hearing your argument, it’s obvious that Peter is beloved by Jesus, and is first among the apostles.

How that translates to modern Popes in Rome (or Avignon) having Temporal Jurisdiction or Papal Infallibility is the hard part to glean from scripture.
Why Jesus said I will be with you until the end of age.

Jesus knew he would not always be with the Church VISIBLY so he gave the Power that his Father gave to him to the Apostles. Remember WHen Jesus said in his Human capacity the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…

The gospel writer himself states God has given authority to SUCH MEN. He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom to bind and loose. Why if he had no power or authority to use it.

And what is he told to bind and loose? So you are saying you reject this power God gave to Peter at that moment and the power Jesus said would be able to offer future generations.

Because what was Jesus saying when he told Peter to lead the sheep? Why didn’t he say it to John? Luke? Matthew?
 
Peter, your strong proclamation of the Gospel (and Catholic teaching) combined with your gentle humor with steadfast love for others are surly one of God’s blessings and joys.
Why thank you Ben. 🙂 I won’t go into why I take issue with posts like “… Orthodox who glory in the wound created by their schism” except to say that I regard such talk to be senselessly anti-Orthodox. On the other hand, I must admit that I have probably at times been a bit too Orthodox-friendly … that’s not to say that I’m going to try to be “Orthodox-unfriendly” 😉 but maybe try to be more neutral in my attitude toward them, if that makes sense.

But having said that, I feel I must add that I find the Orthodox who are on CAF to be extremely good posters, both in terms of scholarship and in terms of good behavior – and I would say the same about the Lutheran posters here. (And the Anglican posters. I can’t really say whether that’s true or not of Methodist, Calvinist, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc posters, simply because I don’t interact with them very often.)
 
I won’t go into why I take issue with posts like “… Orthodox who glory in the wound created by their schism” except to say that I regard such talk to be senselessly anti-Orthodox. O
:dts:
 
The argument that the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope is a stumbling block to Christian unity is both false and a red herring.

Forget the Catholic Church, remove it from the equation for a moment.

Let’s see the balance of Christendom - all of the Protestant denominations and Eastern Orthodox not in communion with Rome - unite. Has that happened? Are they “united” now? If not, then why not?* The Papacy and Universal Jurisdiction is not a factor in that.

Bring a united Protestant/Orthodox Church. That way the Catholic Church will have only one outfit to deal with rather than dozens or hundreds.

Rather than seeing the Papacy and “Universal Jurisdiction” as a stumbling block to unity one should look at it as the only way to unity.

The problem isn’t just Universal Jurisdiction. Instead, I think it is the very idea of Universal Truth.

*The only unity among all of Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy not in communion with Rome is that they are not in communion with Rome…anti-Papal.
 
The argument that the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope is a stumbling block to Christian unity is both false and a red herring.

Forget the Catholic Church, remove it from the equation for a moment.

Let’s see the balance of Christendom - all of the Protestant denominations and Eastern Orthodox not in communion with Rome - unite. Has that happened? Are they “united” now? If not, then why not?* The Papacy and Universal Jurisdiction is not a factor in that.

Bring a united Protestant/Orthodox Church, that way the Catholic Church will have only one outfit to deal with rather than dozens or hundreds.

Rather than seeing the Papacy and “Universal Jurisdiction” as a stumbling block to unity one should look at it as the only way to unity.

The problem isn’t just Universal Jurisdiction. Instead, I think it is the very idea of Universal Truth.

*The only unity among all of Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy not in communion with Rome is that they are not in communion with Rome…anti-Papal.
How can you remove the Roman Catholic Church from the equation? Protestant thought, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox thought and theology all developed very differently.

The Eastern Orthodox idea of reunion, is that everyone becomes Orthodox. There is no compromising the Fullness of Truth when you believe it’s within your Church. Yet I have also heard time and time again, that we know where the Church is not… but we cannot say where the Church is. Replace “Church” with Holy Spirit and it works just as well.

At least with Rome, most of the stumbling blocks are out of the way when it comes to Church authority, Church Fathers, intercession of saints, etc. Now the Protestants think very differently depending on who you talk to and if they are Anglican, Lutheran, Reformed, Calvinist, or what have you…

There is more uniformity among the Orthodox than that. Many of the responses have already been settled too, i.e. against the allegations of Calvinism brought upon a certain Bishop Cyril Lukaris at the Council of Jerusalem in 1672.

It would make more sense for the Non-Chalcedonian “Oriental” Orthodox, and the Eastern “Chalcedonian” Orthodox to reunite first. As a side note, the Orthodox hierarchs have had a history of ecumenical relations with the Anglicans and the Lutherans throughout the years that might interest you. Many of these discussions have led to the Creation of the “Western Rite” within Orthodoxy, for those who are still attached to a Western liturgy and wish to become Orthodox Christians.
 
The argument that the Universal Jurisdiction of the Pope is a stumbling block to Christian unity is both false and a red herring.

Forget the Catholic Church, remove it from the equation for a moment.

Let’s see the balance of Christendom - all of the Protestant denominations and Eastern Orthodox not in communion with Rome - unite. Has that happened? Are they “united” now? If not, then why not?* The Papacy and Universal Jurisdiction is not a factor in that.

Bring a united Protestant/Orthodox Church. That way the Catholic Church will have only one outfit to deal with rather than dozens or hundreds.

Rather than seeing the Papacy and “Universal Jurisdiction” as a stumbling block to unity one should look at it as the only way to unity.

The problem isn’t just Universal Jurisdiction. Instead, I think it is the very idea of Universal Truth.

*The only unity among all of Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy not in communion with Rome is that they are not in communion with Rome…anti-Papal.
You make an interesting observation.

Orthodox, Protestants, and non-believers of all varieties have been all over me in this and other threads. Yet for all their opposition to the pope, why is it that they have not managed to find unity among themselves?

How many flavors of Lutheranism are there, for example?

And if the Orthodox are so “unified” among themselves, why have they not managed to hold an ecumenical council EVER?
 
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