Universal Jursidiction

[Robert_Joseph60]

OK - Scripture…
Mt 16:17-19 - Jesus changes Simon’s name to Rock, Kepha in Aramaic - or Petros in Greek. He then states that it is upon this Kepha, this Rock that He, Jesus, would build His Church.

Mt 18:15-18 - Jesus instructs the disciples to take problems to the Church and to listen to the Church.

Significantly - these are the only two places in the Gospels that Jesus uses the word “Ekkleisa” - Church - and in each case He - Jesus Himself - attaches the authority to bind and loose - whatever.

Later - in the Book of Acts we find the Church in council exercising this authority in a dispute between the Church at Antioch and the Church at Jerusalem.

Add to this are these.
Eph 3:8-12 - it is through the Church that the Wisdom of God is mde known.
1 Tim 3:15 - the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth.

More Scripture speaks to unity - visible and profound -
John 17:20-21
20 (Jesus speaks) "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
**
Rom 15:5-6**
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

All of these Scriptures point to a universal, visible, authoritative Church…
Christ said it - the Holy Spirit caused it to be recorded and preserved - I believe it and therefore I am a member of, and submissive to His Church - because Christ my King tells me to in Scripture

Peace
James

I have no problem with all of the above verses, the problem is that you have a false definition of what the Church is, yours has a human head but the Biblical Church has Yeshua as it’s head.

Eph_1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph_4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph_5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col_2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[Randy_Carson]

I have no problem with all of the above verses, the problem is that you have a false definition of what the Church is, yours has a human head but the Biblical Church has Yeshua as it’s head.

Eph_1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph_4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph_5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col_2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Jesus said, "There shall be one flock and one shepherd (John 10:16).

And Jesus is that Shepherd to be sure. However, just before ascending to heaven, He appointed Peter as the vicarious shepherd who would remain with the flock here on earth: “feed my lambs, tend my sheep” (cf. John 21:16-18).

So, of course we have a human head of the Church! That’s how Jesus set it up!

 

[Robert_Joseph60]

This presupposes the Formal Sufficiency of Scripture, something which contradicts Scripture (2 Peter 3:16)

Go ahead and open up a thread on Sola Scriptura.

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and** ye need not that any man teach you: **but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[Robert_Joseph60]

Jesus said, "There shall be one flock and one shepherd (John 10:16).

And Jesus is that Shepherd to be sure. However, just before ascending to heaven, He appointed Peter as the vicarious shepherd who would remain with the flock here on earth: “feed my lambs, tend my sheep” (cf. John 21:16-18).

So, of course we have a human head of the Church! That’s how Jesus set it up!

Peter is dead.

 

[Robert_Joseph60]

And where is the Scripture that says everything must be in and determined by Scripture?

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[LionHeart777]

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and** ye need not that any man teach you: **but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Well if we interpret the verses above the way you seem to be , we now have John contradicting Peter (2 Peter 3:16) and Paul (Ephesians 4:11), as teachers in the Church would be superfluous according to the way you appear to read the above verses. Thank you for helping to make my case against the formal sufficiency of Scripture!

 

[LionHeart777]

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Scripture is profitable for those things as St. Paul says, yep… but you are a long way a way from Sola Scriptura.

 

[JRKH]

I have no problem with all of the above verses, the problem is that you have a false definition of what the Church is, yours has a human head but the Biblical Church has Yeshua as it’s head.

1. How do you know that I have a false understanding of the Church is?
2. The Church I attend has the same head as yours does. Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and you will find no teaching that says otherwise. Therefore your statement is false.

However - We are members of a Kingdom and Christ’s kingdom - like other kingdoms - has officials besides the king who minister to His people. In Christ’s Church there is a chief steward who occupies the office of a chief steward which we happen to call the papal office.
In communion with this Chief Steward are many other stewards - bishops, priests, theologians deacons etc…along with us layman. All of these men remain subject to and answerable to the King who is Jesus Christ, for how well they have tended His flock.

So you see - your assumption about what we believe and who heads up our Church is quite wrong.

Peace
James

 

[Robert_Joseph60]

Well if we interpret the verses above the way you seem to be , we now have John contradicting Peter (2 Peter 3:16) and Paul (Ephesians 4:11), as teachers in the Church would be superfluous according to the way you appear to read the above verses. Thank you for helping to make my case against the formal sufficiency of Scripture!

There is no contradiction, as the Holy Spirit appoints fallible sinful teachers, and as we study and pray, the Holy Spirit uses the word and illuminates our understanding and discernment. It’s truly a blessing, for over thirty years the Holy Spirit has unraveled many errors taught by fallible humans like me.

 

[JRKH]

Peter is dead.

Yes Peter has passed on…He is not dead.

However - the idea of apostolic succession is not dead and has been followed consistently from the replacement of Judas with Mathias onwards.
Jesus said As the Father dent me, so I send you…He gave them His authority.
He said, whoever hears you hears me…again, passing on His authority.
Jesus laid hands on them and breathed on them.

In ordaining successors they, using the authority granted them by Jesus Himself, pass that authority on…Always knowing that said authority rests, not in themselves, but in Christ who first calls and then sends them.

Thus you can see that Apostolic succession is entirely biblical.

Peace
James

 

[LionHeart777]

There is no contradiction, as the Holy Spirit appoints fallible sinful teachers, and as we study and pray, the Holy Spirit uses the word and illuminates our understanding and discernment. It’s truly a blessing, for over thirty years the Holy Spirit has unraveled many errors taught by fallible humans like me.

So when I cited 2 Peter 3:16 against the formal sufficiency of Scripture, why did you cite those verses from John?

Also, in your view, how does the Holy Spirit appoint teachers today? How can one recognize them?

 

[JRKH]

There is no contradiction, as the Holy Spirit appoints fallible sinful teachers, and as we study and pray, the Holy Spirit uses the word and illuminates our understanding and discernment. It’s truly a blessing, for over thirty years the Holy Spirit has unraveled many errors taught by fallible humans like me.

And we praise God that the Holy Spirit has brought you here to CAF so that we may, in some small way, help Him to unravel some more errors. Like the ones that you seem to hold regarding His Church.

Peace
James

 

[Randy_Carson]

Peter is dead.

So was Judas when the Apostles elected Matthias to replace him.

So, Robert, who replaced Peter?

 

[Randy_Carson]

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Yes, that is the classic attempt at answering the question. However, it fails for a number of reasons.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 – Tradition + Scripture + Magisterium

When non-Catholics are asked to provide biblical support or their belief that the Bible Alone is the sole rule of faith for the believer, they usually cite 2 Timothy 3:16-17 which states that “all scripture is God-breathed and is useful”. However, they somehow miss the fact that the two verses immediately prior stress the importance of oral teaching and the teaching authority of the Church. Here is the entire passage with context added:

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of (Timothy had learned the Gospel and become convinced that it was true by Paul’s ORAL preaching and teaching. This oral preaching and teaching is known to Catholics as Sacred Tradition.), because you know those from whom you learned it (Timothy had learned the gospel from Paul, an Apostle (and Bishop) of the Church, and possibly from other Church leaders whom Timothy had heard preaching and teaching. The teaching authority of the Church is known to Catholics as the Magisterium.) , 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures (Timothy would have known only the Old Testament scriptures from his infancy since the New Testament had not been written or completed at the time Paul’s letter to Timothy was composed. However, the New Testament is recognized as part of the Bible, the written Word of God. This is known to Catholics as Sacred Scripture.), which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (Only after commending the Tradition “handed on” from the Magisterium does Paul go on to discuss the nature of Sacred Scripture in the following verses.) 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Viewed this way, we can see that 2 Timothy 3:14-17 does not support the doctrine of sola scriptura at all. In fact, the opposite is true.

 

[Robert_Joseph60]

Three bags ready.

The RCC teaches the opposite of what you’re signature says, take a close look at you’re own official Roman source.

•“We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ,” (CCC, par. 1821).
•“Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification,” (CCC, par. 2010).

That’s salvation by works, which is a false gospel.

 

[Randy_Carson]

There is no contradiction, as the Holy Spirit appoints fallible sinful teachers, and as we study and pray, the Holy Spirit uses the word and illuminates our understanding and discernment. It’s truly a blessing, for over thirty years the Holy Spirit has unraveled many errors taught by fallible humans like me.

Great! Perhaps you can answer a question that puzzles me…

Methodists baptize infants. Baptists do not.

Both accept sola scriptura and have verses to support their positions.

Who is right?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The RCC teaches the opposite of what you’re signature says, take a close look at you’re own official Roman source.

•“We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ,” (CCC, par. 1821).
•“Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification,” (CCC, par. 2010).

That’s salvation by works, which is a false gospel.

Um…Robert?

Steido01 is a Lutheran…not a Roman Catholic.

 

[Robert_Joseph60]

This brings us to the refutation of another non-Catholic argument against Peter’s position as leader of the Christian Church: Jesus was simply re-instating Peter in John 21 by mirroring Peter’s three denials with three questions, “Do you love me?” Yet, we see from Luke 22:31-34, that Peter’s three-fold denial is contrasted, not with Peter’s apostleship, but rather with Peter’s special ministry to strengthen and unify the other Apostles …and this before he denies Christ three times. Thus, if Peter is restored to anything in John 21, it must include the commission he was given in Luke 22:31-32 – namely, to be the one to strengthen those other Apostles whose faith was flagging.

In Luke 22:31-32 and John 21:15-19 Peter is commissioned, and then re-commissioned, as the vicarious shepherd over the entire flock in Christ’s physical absence.

In summary, we know that Jesus is the Good Shepherd and that there is one Shepherd and one flock (cf. John 10). Yet, in the passage from John 21, we can see that Jesus leaves Peter in charge of feeding, tending and caring for His sheep. Peter becomes the shepherd who will lead the flock after Jesus’ ascension. Therefore, while Jesus is forever our Good Shepherd reigning from heaven, He has made provision for us by naming someone else to stand in His place, to be His vicar, here on earth. The Vicar of Christ established by Jesus is the Pope of the Catholic Church.

Not only does Peter (and his successors, the Popes) hold the keys to the kingdom of God (cf. Mt 16:18, Is. 22:22), but he holds the shepherd’s crook or crozier, as well.

Randy, you’re interpretation of scripture has serious problems, the fact the Peter is dead disanal’s all your previous teachings.

 

[Robert_Joseph60]

Um…Robert?

Steido01 is a Lutheran…not a Roman Catholic.

Sorry I’ll post it for you then.

Originally Posted by Robert Joseph60
The RCC teaches the opposite of what you’re signature says, take a close look at you’re own official Roman source.

•“We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere ‘to the end’ and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ,” (CCC, par. 1821).
•“Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification,” (CCC, par. 2010).

That’s salvation by works, which is a false gospel.

 

[Robert_Joseph60]

Great! Perhaps you can answer a question that puzzles me…

Methodists baptize infants. Baptists do not.

Both accept sola scriptura and have verses to support their positions.

Who is right?

I think the topic for this thread is Justification.