Universal Jursidiction

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Jesus judged Peter’s character and determined that he could be called “Rock”. After 2,000, I think it’s safe to say that Jesus was right.
This is important, and Lutherans, I believe, should be reticent to underestimate this important fact. We can say with truth that, in many ways, the rock of which Christ speaks is Peter’s statement of faith, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God”. But Christ does change Simon’s name. St. Peter is at least in some part “rock”.

However, the early Church in council does not construe this as in any way universal jurisdiction. In fact, Nicea canon 6 seems to state clearly that Alexandria, for example, has equal in its area that Rome does in the west.

So, the role of the pope, ISTM, is neither the diminished role that some protestants would like to claim, and nor is he universal in jurisdiction over the entire Church Militant, as Rome wishes to claim.

Jon
 
I’m getting to that, Jon. I’m waiting for a little of the knee-jerk reaction to die down. 😉
Hi Randy,
I’m actually waiting for some knee-jerk reaction. 😃
From what I can tell, only one poster isn’t Catholic or Lutheran. We really need some other folks to chime in - folks who feel strongly about the papacy.
The two milk-toast Lutherans here already recognize the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. :eek:

Jon
 
I’ll try to explain again: Lutherans do not say that the Office of the Keys is held by Lutherans only; we acknowledge that other Christians (including the Bishop of Rome) can -and do- also.
I understand. I just don’t think you can make that argument based on scripture.
We simply state that when this office is abused, it is nothing more than a husk. There is no magic date or individual pope who “screwed things up” - we don’t believe in any foolish notion of some “Great Apostasy.” There have been faithful Popes, and some less so. Recently, Christendom has been blessed with particularly wonderful men of God. But we Lutherans also note where we perceive them to have abused their office.
So do we. However, the principles behind universal jurisdiction didn’t change just because Luther didn’t like them.

We’d like to think that every pope was a holy man of God, but that wasn’t the case. More importantly, it didn’t matter a whit. The office of the Royal Steward remains in place to this very day.
Randy, the Power and Primacy of the Pope is part of the Lutheran Book of Concord, and explains Lutheran thinking regarding the papacy and Roman Catholic teachings concerning it. If you will not read it, then this becomes an incredibly difficult conversation to continue. 😊
Am I, as a Catholic, going to be satisfied with mere primacy, a “first among equals” papacy? So, you can argue for Peter’s primacy all day, and it’s not enough because, IMHO, Jesus intended and invested Peter with MORE.
 
Neither did the royal stewards in Israel if they died suddenly or were killed in battle, etc.

You can see from the passage from Isaiah that GOD is making the change by replacing Shebna with Eliakim…Shebna did not name his successor and probably did not want to be replaced!

By the way, you can also see something along these lines when Peter speaks about filling Judas’ “office” in Acts 2. The office continues even when the man occupying the office does not.
Judas was not the pope, the head, the leader. Big difference.
 
Okay. Is there a pope who has done this in your view?
An unfair question :eek:. By Forum Rules I will get points or forever banned if I answer this. I made an honest mistake and got points already. I will follow the Forum Rules.
 
Hi Randy,
I’m actually waiting for some knee-jerk reaction. 😃
From what I can tell, only one poster isn’t Catholic or Lutheran. We really need some other folks to chime in - folks who feel strongly about the papacy.
The two milk-toast Lutherans here already recognize the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. :eek:

Jon
I’m pretty ignorant about Lutheranism, Jon, but one of the toastees quoted the Lutheran Book of Concord in support of the primacy. Are you saying you DON’T acknowledge a primacy?
 
Good point. The primacy of the Bishop of Rome and his alleged Universal Jurisdiction are entirely separate issues. I should not have engaged in a discussion where the issues had already been conflated, without first making the distinction clear… 😊

I thought that the Lutheran opposition to Universal Jurisdiction would be clear from the answers I gave about the role of the pope - I left far too much on the periphery.
Don’t worry…I’m clear on the fact that you don’t accept universal jurisdiction. 😉
 
Judas was not the pope, the head, the leader. Big difference.
Yes and no. If the office of Judas had to be filled by Matthias, how much more should the office of the head of the apostles be filled?

Look at it this way…if Jesus left Peter in charge of the flock, would the sheep be left without a shepherd when Peter died?
 
An unfair question :eek:. By Forum Rules I will get points or forever banned if I answer this. I made an honest mistake and got points already. I will follow the Forum Rules.
I certainly don’t want you to get in trouble, but I think it’s okay in an apologetics forum to say that you think Pope X did this or that wrong. I’ll ask the mod.
 
Yes and no. If the office of Judas had to be filled by Matthias, how much more should the office of the head of the apostles be filled?

Look at it this way…if Jesus left Peter in charge of the flock, would the sheep be left without a shepherd when Peter died?
Been a long time since a pope has either died, or left office, unexpectedly, there was ample time to name a successor.
 
Been a long time since a pope has either died, or left office, unexpectedly, there was ample time to name a successor.
You forget John Paul I.

But I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. The pope does not name his own successor; the new pope is elected by the college of cardinals.
 
You forget John Paul I.

But I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. The pope does not name his own successor; the new pope is elected by the college of cardinals.
Did not forget-1978.

The pope should name his successor. The Vicar of Christ, who better? If the Pope is head of the Universal Church, why doesn’t he. We trust him to lead the church but not to name his successor? 🤷
 
Did not forget-1978.

The pope should name his successor. The Vicar of Christ, who better? If the Pope is head of the Universal Church, why doesn’t he. We trust him to lead the church but not to name his successor? 🤷
And if the Pope wants the Cardinals to name his successor? What’s wrong with that if that’s what he wants? He is the Vicar of Christ, right? Your statements make it sound as if the Popes have wanted to name their successor, when they’ve seemed perfectly happy with the current system of election.
 
And if the Pope wants the Cardinals to name his successor? What’s wrong with that if that’s what he wants? He is the Vicar of Christ, right? Your statements make it sound as if the Popes have wanted to name their successor, when they’ve seemed perfectly happy with the current system of election.
…and if the pope is happy with that so should we all be. 🙂
 
I would not want a pope to pick his successor. That is now where the conciliar model comes in…in our world, the cardinals…especially as they represent so much of the universal church.

Pope John Paul II hinted at someone he would prefer…and it came out it was Pope Benedict, who himself said at the beginning that his pontificate would not be long, and of course, he finally had to step down.

Even if the pope is not accepted as the universal leader of the Church, in the eye of my faith, I certainly see him speaking to all Christians and all humanity of the world. I don’t see any other leader out there, and when the Holy Father speaks, it is simple and good and uplifting.
 
Cue tired refutation, “Keys given to Church through Peter, not just to Peter; Canon VI of the First Council of Nicea; Canon III of Council of Constantinople, first among equals, the Ancient Pentarchy, etc., etc…”

Drat. I was hoping this thread might bring something new… :compcoff:
Oh man, you mean I have misread the passage all these years? Jesus actually said: *And I will give my Church the keys? *and not: And I will give you (Peter) the keys?

:cool:
 
. However, the early Church in council does not construe this as in any way universal jurisdiction. **In fact, Nicea canon 6 seems to state clearly that Alexandria, for example, has equal in its area that Rome does in the west.
**
Jon
Hey Jon! Long time no see 😃

I’d like to point out the bold part.

Nicaea was called in 325 AD to discuss what the faithful believe in. In Canon 6 the reference that Alexandria has the same authority as Rome over certain churches actually doesn’t contradict that Rome had Authority. Since communication was limited the whole “alexandria is the same as rome” is saying that each of these bigger Churches will be the heads of smaller ones, but if we look at the council of Sardica (343 AD) we see that Rome clearly still has the authority over all churches.

I have provided both the Greek notes and the Latin notes on the council.

Sardica Canon 3

**Greek
**
Bishop Hosius said: This also it is necessary to add—that no bishop pass from his own province to another province in which there are bishops, unless indeed he be called by his brethren, that we seem not to close the gates of charity.

And this case likewise is to be provided for, that if in any province a bishop has some matter against his brother and fellow bishop, neither of the two should call in as arbiters bishops from another province.

But if perchance sentence be given against a bishop in any matter and he supposes his case to be not unsound but good, in order that the question may be reopened, let us, if it seem good to your charity, honour the memory of Peter the Apostle, and let those who gave judgment write to Julius, the bishop of Rome, so that, if necessary, the case may be retried by the bishops of the neighbouring provinces and let him appoint arbiters; but if it cannot be shown that his case is of such a sort as to need a new trial, let the judgment once given not be annulled, but stand good as before.

Latin

Bishop Hosius said: This also it is necessary to add—that bishops shall not pass from their own province to another province in which there are bishops, unless perchance upon invitation from their brethren, that we seem not to close the door of charity.

But if in any province a bishop have a matter in dispute against his brother bishop, one of the two shall not call in as judge a bishop from another province.

But if judgment have gone against a bishop in any cause, and he think that he has a good case, in order that the question may be reopened, let us, if it be your pleasure, honour the memory of St. Peter the Apostle, and let those who tried the case write to Julius, the bishop of Rome, and if he shall judge that the case should be retried, let that be done, and let him appoint judges; but if he shall find that the case is of such a sort that the former decision need not be disturbed, what he has decreed shall be confirmed. Is this the pleasure of all? The synod answered, It is our pleasure

Sardica Canon 4

Greek

Bishop Gaudentius said: If it seems good to you, it is necessary to add to this decision full of sincere charity which you have pronounced, that if any bishop be deposed by the sentence of these neighbouring bishops, and assert that he has fresh matter in defence, a new bishop be not settled in his see, unless the bishop of Rome judge and render a decision as to this.

Latin

Bishop Gaudentius said: It ought to be added, if it be your pleasure, to this sentence full of sanctity which you have pronounced, that— when any bishop has been deposed by the judgment of those bishops who have sees in neighbouring places, and he [the bishop deposed] shall announce that his case is to be examined in the city of Rome— that no other bishop shall in any wise be ordained to his see, after the appeal of him who is apparently deposed, unless the case shall have been determined in the judgment of the Roman bishop.
 
What keys were given? I’ve often wondered why two keys. I find the Key of David in Isaiah 22, but what is the other key? Or are they two different keys altogether?
 
To the OP in the economy of universal jurisdiction where does that leave the Orthodox who only see the Pope as the Bishop of Rome not over all Christendom and the first among equals.
 
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