Universal Salvation quote from Pope John Paul II

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Greetings fellow posters,

I have a Protestant friend who verges on anti-Catholicism. He states that the Church is heretical in its doctrine and anti-Biblical. More specifically, his focus is on a quote from John Paul II. I can’t find the exact quote, but it was something in regards that one does not need Jesus Christ for salvation. In essence, that all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ.

My questions are this: Is this church doctrine, since the Pope said it? If not, does this then break the rule of Papal Infallibility?

Confused Catholic
 
Save yourself the stress and make him do the homework. Don’t let people blab and force you to have to do the research. 9 times out of 10, such quotes are made up, distorted, misquoted, etc. It’s not easy to deal with Protestants who approach discussions in that fashion because they’ve usually checked their reasoning skills at the door. Tell him he needs to produce the quote, with a link to the source, and he be willing to retract his comments if the context/quote turns out to be bogus.
 
Google : JP2’s quotes on Universal Salvation …there u will find around 20-25.

I looked them over quickly, but didn’t see any problems.
 
Remember, Catholic means Universal…and the Church has taught from Day 1, Pentecost, that it is thru Christ’s Church …that the Great Commission went out, to effect the desire of Christ …that All might be saved … John 3:16, the invitation.

And, Christ promised to deliver all, …that the Father gave Him. That not one be lost !!
 
I hear you. It looks like he has a problem with the following quotes in the article:

“The gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes–the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life–will enter God’s kingdom,” John Paul said.

“All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this kingdom,” he said.

If you notice the first paragraph of the article paraphrases what the Pope is saying, that " all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church."
 
I hear you. It looks like he has a problem with the following quotes in the article:

“The gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes–the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life–will enter God’s kingdom,” John Paul said.

“All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this kingdom,” he said.

If you notice the first paragraph of the article paraphrases what the Pope is saying, that " all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church."
YES, in case of Pre-Columbus introduction of Good News by Catholic Priests to the New World. The Church holds out possibility of Salvation for those Indians/Eskimos who lived lives c/w Beatitudes, treating neighbor as oneself !!

Some Indian Chiefs were very moral & readily converted to Christianity…showing they had been teaching morals to their clan. Chief Joseph & his Father…were two examples of exemplary Indian Chiefs !!
 
Greetings fellow posters,

I have a Protestant friend who verges on anti-Catholicism. He states that the Church is heretical in its doctrine and anti-Biblical. More specifically, his focus is on a quote from John Paul II. I can’t find the exact quote, but it was something in regards that one does not need Jesus Christ for salvation. In essence, that all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ.

My questions are this: Is this church doctrine, since the Pope said it? If not, does this then break the rule of Papal Infallibility?

Confused Catholic
The CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church is online) Read it before you engage too much in dialogue with non Catholics. Then you can appoint to the official teaching.

The Pope has never said any such thing.

Check out the CCC on the doctrine of infallibility.

Mary.
 
The CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church is online) Read it before you engage too much in dialogue with non Catholics. Then you can appoint to the official teaching.

The Pope has never said any such thing.

Check out the CCC on the doctrine of infallibility.

Mary.
There is a reading in the CCC that states something like that. I asked a Priest about Mormons and I said if they are good people doing good to others how can God condemn them? They do not believe in the trinity thus they don’t believe in Jesus, are they saved? He gave me this CCC reading : I am not sure if this was the exact one but it reminds of JP2 quote you gave

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
 
Everything a pope says, even if he says it repeatedly, does not become Church doctrine merely by the fact that he says it. Even a pope’s personal theology is not necessarily infallible.

The difficulty with the papal statements since John XXIII is that they look at the matters of commonality rather than the matters of difference in trying to address people in other types of Christian communities – they are never called “churches” if they are other than the Eastern churches – and religions. This scandalizes many, who look at the instances where the the popes of the past half century have seemed to act or speak in a manner that suggests they believe in universal salvation. If they did, they could not possibly be popes, because universal salvation is contrary to all Catholic doctrine; but the fact that Jesus’ redemptive death is universally available and that it is not refused in cases that only God knows about, is not contrary. It would be contrary if it’s presumed that the universal availability means that there is no obligation, on the part of one learning that the Church teaches that it is the ark of salvation & the one Church will by Jesus, to do what he can to find out if that is true. If one knows the claim and is indifferent to it or merely resistant to it, makes excuses about it, if one prefers one’s own religion or denomination out of grounds of personal convenience or unwillingness to do what’s necessary to be saved, to inherit eternal life – that is presumption. Unfortunately, I do think that there has been a certain imprudence in papal actions while pursuing ecumenical & interreligious relations which has given rise to doubt that this is the case – witness the many people who think that the Church ‘changed the teaching’ with Vatican II. Many priests who lived through the Council adopted this as their stance, including some ex-missionary ones. I knew an old Jesuit who had been in Asian missions who said, in the '90s, ‘thank God we dropped all that nonsense about converting the heathen.’ It seems to me to be wishful thinking to deny that the hierarchy’s practices in this vicinity have not been responsible for reducing the missionary ardor in the religious orders & in the priesthood generally.
 
Why are all of you struggling over this? Everything that Bl. John Paul said about salvation was codified and included in the CCC along with what has always been taught. Nothing that he said is contrary to the past. Actually, it sheds some light on questions that people have had and had gone unanswered and there will be more questions and some pope will come around and answer them. That simple.

Here are the answers to the OP directly from the CCC

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

We can’t call Protestants heretics, because they were not around 500 years ago.

We accept them as brothers

They are incorporated into Christ through Baptism, which gives them a hope of salvation.

Because they are incorporated into Christ, they have a right to the name Christian.

Next point.
**
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.”**

There is no salvation outside the Church, but they are not totally detached from the Church. They are in what the Church considers an imperfect communion. They are attached by virtue of Baptism. We profess to believe that there is only one baptism. Therefore, if they are baptized they are not out there in space. There is a chance for salvation through the Church, even though they are attached by a thread. God can work with a thread.

Next point:

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

We can find truth outside of the Catholic Church. In simple language, the Church has the fullness of truth, but this does not mean that others have no knowledge of any truth. The fact that a Protestant believes that Christ is the Son of God is faith in the most important of all truths. Then the passage goes on to tell us what these folks have in common with Catholics.

Christ can use these communities as a means to salvation, not because they believe in errors. He can save through the truths that they embrace, if they embrace them faithfully and they make a genuine effort to grow in the faith.

These are the ideas that Pope John Paul II tried to summarize in the famous statement that he makes that all men are called to salvation, which people use against him, because they’re taking the statement out of context. The statement is a summary of these simple beliefs that Catholics hold.

Not out of this world or anything new. The only new thing is the wording, not the content.
 
Greetings fellow posters,

I have a Protestant friend who verges on anti-Catholicism. He states that the Church is heretical in its doctrine and anti-Biblical. More specifically, his focus is on a quote from John Paul II. I can’t find the exact quote, but it was something in regards that one does not need Jesus Christ for salvation. In essence, that all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ.
Apparently the actual statement referred to belief in both Jesus Christ AND the Catholic Church, so your Protestant friend should be happy, since he obviously doesn’t believe in the Catholic Church. :rolleyes:

What the statement doesn’t say, is that “one does not need Jesus Christ for salvation”. This is the age-old distinction between salvation through Jesus Christ (always and everywhere), and belief in Jesus Christ. And again, are we going to condemn all those throughout history and in this day and age who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Jesus Christ of the Gospels? Either God desires that all be saved, or he doesn’t. If he does, then we have to account for all those people just mentioned.

For people who maintain this strict view, I ask why are they not in China or Pakistan right now, preaching the gospel to the unsaved?
 
=Big BC;10545051]I hear you. It looks like he has a problem with the following quotes in the article:
“The gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes–the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life–will enter God’s kingdom,” John Paul said.
Seems that his problem is with scripture not with Pope John Paul II. That is what the Beatitudes say. But he should know that none of the above is possible without God’s grace.
“All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this kingdom,” he said.
We are saved by grace and that is all the Pope is saying. It is possible that someone who does not know Christ BUT cooperates with God’s grace can be saved. That is biblical. Anyone can be saved if they accept God’s grace.

Ask him if he has a problem with this quote from Peter who, inspired by the Holy Spirit said:" “Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.” Acts 10:34-35

Clearly “every nation” would also refer to pagan nations where Christ is not known.
 
Greetings fellow posters,

I have a Protestant friend who verges on anti-Catholicism. He states that the Church is heretical in its doctrine and anti-Biblical. More specifically, his focus is on a quote from John Paul II. I can’t find the exact quote, but it was something in regards that one does not need Jesus Christ for salvation. In essence, that all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ.

My questions are this: Is this church doctrine, since the Pope said it? If not, does this then break the rule of Papal Infallibility?

Confused Catholic
“The gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes–the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life–will enter God’s kingdom,” John Paul said.
“All who seek God with a sincere heart, including those who do not know Christ and his church, contribute under the influence of grace to the building of this kingdom,” he said.
If you notice the first paragraph of the article paraphrases what the Pope is saying, that " all who live a just life will be saved even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church."
First of all, the two quotes it pulls are not the same as the summary the article makes. The second actual quotation just says that other religions help build the Kingdom of God. The first quote says that those who live according to the Beatitudes will enter God’s kingdom. That’s not incorrect, especially when you consider how similar it is to Jesus’ statement, “Those who keep the commandments shall enter eternal life,” – Matt. 19:17 – and especially when you consider that one of the Beatitudes is explicitly about believing in Jesus: “Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice and be glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.” Matt. 5:11-12.

The fact is, Holy Father has always defended our doctrines, even the unpopular ones, including the doctrine of Hell. This shows up most explicitly in the Catechism, which he published, even amidst criticism of it due to its containing many unpopular doctrines, including Hell. See paragraphs 1033 to 1037. He also has encouraged the faithful to pray that no one be lost and all be won to Christ – something which implies the possibility of BEING lost and NOT coming to Christ. Many of his statements talk about Death, Judgment, Heaven and Hell, and he was fond of quoting Our Lady of Fatima regarding Hell and how many souls go there. If you want to explore this more, a good post was made compiling all of this data here: socrates58.blogspot.com/2011/04/refutation-of-robert-sungenis-charge.html. But don’t ever let anyone tell you that the Holy Father believed in Universal Salvation just because he prayed that no one goes to Hell. He knew quite well that some people would go there anyway.
 
Thanks to everyone for their responses. It sounds like, in summary, that Jesus Christ is truly the only path to salvation. That if someone rejects the opportunity to join the Church in most countries, then there is no path to salvation. Likewise, for someone who lived or lives in a remote location who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel, but lives their life according to the beatitudes, and open to God’s grace, then they can be on the path to salvation.

What about those who live in countries like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, where Christ is known, but Islam is so ingrained in those societies culturally, that even thinking about Christianity is shunned upon, penalized, and even possibly leads to death?
 
Thanks to everyone for their responses. It sounds like, in summary, that Jesus Christ is truly the only path to salvation. That if someone rejects the opportunity to join the Church in most countries, then there is no path to salvation. Likewise, for someone who lived or lives in a remote location who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel, but lives their life according to the beatitudes, and open to God’s grace, then they can be on the path to salvation.
That’s right.
What about those who live in countries like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, where Christ is known, but Islam is so ingrained in those societies culturally, that even thinking about Christianity is shunned upon, penalized, and even possibly leads to death?
Your question has now entered a domain where there is a lot of room for interpretation. The Church’s doctrine is that those who are ignorant of the Gospel through no fault of their own can be saved through Christ if they live their lives according to the beatitudes. The two important phrases here are “ignorant” and “through no fault of their own”. Does “ignorant” only mean “you haven’t heard”? Or can it also mean “You may have heard, but you didn’t get a chance to hear with understanding” – the person who hears someone say “Jesus saves” but he gets no context for that remark and never hears any more about it – is he still ignorant of the Gospel? If he is, then how much does he have to hear and how much does he have to understand? Obviously this has to be on a case-by-base basis because every case will be different. The long and the short of it is, you have to be able to make a real authentic choice about whether to accept or reject the Gospel, and that implies a certain degree of knowledge about it, and a certain ability to understand that it is true, because if you are led to believe it is false through no fault of your own, and you reject it because it came from a biased source or an incomplete source, that would not be your fault, and God will never condemn someone for something that wasn’t their fault. (Though he would condemn someone for mortal sins that WERE known to be sinful, so it’s not like that’s a giant loophole or anything.)

Anyway, you can see that explaining this is difficult, because every case will be different. But the doctrine isn’t complicated. Only Jesus saves, but He can save those who are ignorant of Him, if that isn’t their fault and they live their lives according to the beatitudes. That doctrine excludes the twin errors of exclusivism and universalism at once: not everyone will be saved, but Catholics are not the only ones who will be saved.
 
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