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Marty_E
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If you get to pick and choose your proof texts, and even say they don’t say what they plainly say, the sky is the limit.
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Seraphim73
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Marty_E
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Of course there is. The permanent existence of hell, the Last Judgment, Christ’s plain words on casting into eternal fire.The problem here, Marty E, is that there is no “certain knowledge that not all will be saved.”
What there is no certain knowledge of is any particular person in hell. There is no counterpart to canonization for recognition of the damned.
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JayNektarios
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This, as you have phrased it, is not a teaching of the Catholic Church. While the Church teaches that hell exists, it does not teach an “either/or” scenario whereby its existence infers and/or requires that it will be (or even must be) populated by condemned people after the final judgment.Either there’s a hell and people are condemned to it for eternity or there is not.
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Marty_E
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He arrives at no conclusion.
He does not address the plain words of Jesus.
He is not party to the de fide teaching of the Catholic Church on the reality and permanence of hell.
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Seraphim73
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As we should not.He arrives at no conclusion.
Well that’s simply not true. He addresses the words of Jesus and the words of St Paul.He does not address the plain words of Jesus.
That is an assertion. prove it.He is not party to the de fide teaching of the Catholic Church on the reality and permanence of hell…
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Abu
Guest
Modern Catholic Dictionary by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
‘The punishment of hell is eternal, as declared by Christ in his prediction of the last day (Matthew 25:46), and as defined by the Fourth Lateran Council, stating that the wicked will “receive a perpetual punishment with the devil” (Denzinger 801). The existence of hell is consistent with divine justice, since God respects human freedom and those who are lost actually condemn themselves by their resistance to the grace of God.’
therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl
Ignatius of Antioch, Justin, Ireneus, and Hippolytus are explicit as Fr Hardon confirms, also citing the Athanasian Creed written before 428.
‘The punishment of hell is eternal, as declared by Christ in his prediction of the last day (Matthew 25:46), and as defined by the Fourth Lateran Council, stating that the wicked will “receive a perpetual punishment with the devil” (Denzinger 801). The existence of hell is consistent with divine justice, since God respects human freedom and those who are lost actually condemn themselves by their resistance to the grace of God.’
therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl
Ignatius of Antioch, Justin, Ireneus, and Hippolytus are explicit as Fr Hardon confirms, also citing the Athanasian Creed written before 428.
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Marty_E
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The high point of universalism in the Catholic Church was the mistranslation of “pro multis” as “for all”.That is an assertion. prove it.
Orthodoxy prevailed and we now say “for many”.
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ready
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No Saint has ever taught Universal Salvation, so please read the posts with a grain of salt that say otherwise. Origen was condemned by the Church for such teaching (He wasn’t a canonized Saint.). If there were such thing as Universal Salvation, Jesus would not have spoken the way He did about hell and eternal damnation, He would not say that on the last day the sheep will go on His right and will enter heaven, and the goats would go on His left, where they will be condemned to eternal hell fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus speaks of wheat and cockle, etc. – some of us will not be found to be wheat, some of us will be found to be cockle and will be thrown into the eternal flames of hell. God bless you.
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JayNektarios
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By way of re-clarifying what I have so far stated . . . there is a difference between asserting universalism, which is not a teaching of the Church, versus embracing a universalist hope, which is ultimately an expression of abiding faith in the immeasurable limitlessness of God’s sublime mercy. As such, universalist hope is not contrary to Church teaching; it in fact accords with it (again, see Catechism 1821).
We must be extremely cautious in any attempt to formulate eschatological and soteriological absolutes, whether it is through personal interpretations of “plain readings” of Scripture, through the lens of personal feelings or desires, through our own theological inclinations, etc. Surrendering to the temptation of engaging in such absolutism runs the risk of placing limits upon the will and character of God, who is limitless. This has the dangerous effect of subordinating God to the dogmatization of personal opinion, which ultimately places one’s self on God’s throne.
We must be extremely cautious in any attempt to formulate eschatological and soteriological absolutes, whether it is through personal interpretations of “plain readings” of Scripture, through the lens of personal feelings or desires, through our own theological inclinations, etc. Surrendering to the temptation of engaging in such absolutism runs the risk of placing limits upon the will and character of God, who is limitless. This has the dangerous effect of subordinating God to the dogmatization of personal opinion, which ultimately places one’s self on God’s throne.
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Marty_E
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If “universalist hope” means we wish all would be saved, and work to make it so, knowing that in the end some will reject God’s love in favor of their own will and thus be damned for eternity, you have no problem.By way of re-clarifying what I have so far stated . . . there is a difference between asserting universalism, which is not a teaching of the Church, versus embracing a universalist hope, which is ultimately an expression of abiding faith in the immeasurable limitlessness of God’s sublime mercy. As such, universalist hope is not contrary to Church teaching; it in fact accords with it (again, see Catechism 1821).
If at any point you entertain the notion that hell will cease to exist and that no one will be damned for eternity you run over the curb and into the gutter of heresy.
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JayNektarios
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Universalist hope is not only “an expression of abiding faith in the immeasurable limitlessness of God’s sublime mercy,” it is, as a consequence of such faith, an act of total humility in that it confesses an inescapable truth: “We do not know.”If at any point you entertain the notion that hell will cease to exist and that no one will be damned for eternity you run over the curb and into the gutter of heresy.
This kind of faithful hope reflects how Christian faith should always operate: it casts all emphasis away from our finite minds and limited understanding, and places it on God’s infinite and unlimited being. And in completely sacrificing vanity this way, we render all glory to God.
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Marty_E
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Except that in this case we do know that there is a hell, that some will be consigned to it for eternity, and that not all therefore will be saved. We know that because it is a revealed truth, both in Scriptures and in the Councils of the Church.Universalist hope is not only “an expression of abiding faith in the immeasurable limitlessness of God’s sublime mercy,” it is, as a consequence of such faith, an act of total humility in that it confesses an inescapable truth: “We do not know.”
In total humility we ought to accept that revealed knowledge and recognize that while God is merciful, He is just.
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JayNektarios
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No we don’t. This notion of “consignment” is not a teaching of the Catholic Church.[W]e do know that … some will be consigned to [hell] for eternity…
You seem to be focused on the existence of hell. I am not denying that the Church teaches that hell exists. So to repeat myself (again), while the Church teaches that hell exists, it does not teach that hell will be populated for eternity following the final judgment, nor that the existence of hell infers a requirement that it have residents.
(And before you get into any “clear reading of Scripture” arguments, it would be prudent to acknowledge that Scripture is not for casual personal interpretation, to say nothing of the fact that Scripture is not always as “clear” as one may initially imagine, or wish it to be.)
On that note, this will be my last response on this thread as there’s really no more to say on the matter. I wish all well in any continuing discussion, which I hope can be done with humility and charity.
God bless.
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Pug
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Perhaps agreement can be reached that Hell will have some residents, surely the devil and his angels will be there?
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say to them also, that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say to them also, that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
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Marty_E
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In fact we do. Your suggestion of an empty hell is contrary to the plain words of Scriptures, the teaching of the Church on the Final Judgment, and the Councils.No we don’t.
The only thing we do not know is who will be resident other than Satan and the fallen angels.
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Seraphim73
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Well that’s simply not true. St Gregory of Nyssa and St Issac the Syrian both taught universal salvation. Neither of them have been condemned. I do not regard hell as a punishment. God doesn’t need to punish us. It is our choice to separate ourselves from God. I don’t see how an all good all loving God would ever turn us away even if we choose Him after death.No Saint has ever taught Universal Salvation, so please read the posts with a grain of salt that say otherwise.
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Abu
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False.JayNektarios #35
So to repeat myself (again), while the Church teaches that hell exists, it does not teach that hell will be populated for eternity following the final judgment, nor that the existence of hell infers a requirement that it have residents.
The solemn teaching of the Church is: “that demons, and men who die in a state of mortal sin, suffer eternal punishment in Hell.” [Athanasian Creed; DS858, 1002, Council of Florence 1306]
Christ emphasises that Hell is “where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.” [Mk 9:48]. “Depart from Me you cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” [Mt 25:46].
The use of eternal here is clarified by St Augustine that it must mean “eternal” in the strict sense because both expressions ‘everlasting punishment” and “everlasting life” occur in the same sentence; “everlasting” must therefore bear the same meaning in both. The City of God, Bk XXI, Ch. 23].
[See *Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Archbishop Michael Sheehan, revised by Fr Peter Joseph, The Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 615, 624].
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Marty_E
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It is arguable whether St Gregory or St Isaac taught anything we would call “universal salvation”.Well that’s simply not true. St Gregory of Nyssa and St Issac the Syrian both taught universal salvation. Neither of them have been condemned. I do not regard hell as a punishment. God doesn’t need to punish us. It is our choice to separate ourselves from God. I don’t see how an all good all loving God would ever turn us away even if we choose Him after death.
Catholics, in any case, are not bound by the personal opinions of saints, who have made errors in belief and practice in their lifetimes.
I don’t see how God can be Three Persons in One and would not believe it to be so were it not revealed.
The existence of hell and the Last Judgment with eternal salvation were similarly revealed, and I don’t see how one can thumb one’s nose at revelation.
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