Universalism and Tradition?

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The Catholic Encyclopedia (1913 IIRC) says it is not contrary to dogma to suppose that God releases a soul from Hell:

“In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell.”

newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

If God can do it by way of exception for one person, there’s no stopping Him from doing it by way of exception for everyone. This quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia also demonstrates the falsity of those who think that God can’t liberate a soul from hell without violating their free will.

The article does later say that theologians are now agreed that it never happens.
 
TNT said:
“unquenchable fire”
http://frontierwebdesign.com/passtheammo/images/temp/flame.gif

is fine as far as it goes.
What wer lookin fer is that one ul NEVER exit the “unquenchable fire”, not that t fire will r wont quench.
Kinda like me n the marshmellows I put on a stick in the fire. The fire’s “unquenchable fire” to the marshmellows, but I eventually yank m out…n eat m.
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Have we gone so far as to define ‘hell’ in this thread? I did not think that hell was a matter of unquenchable fire, but rather eternal separation from the love of God.

Where is this hell? Where is purgatory? And for that matter, where is heaven? Traditionally and universally.
 
Carol_Coombe said:
Have we gone so far as to define ‘hell’ in this thread? I did not think that hell was a matter of unquenchable fire, but rather eternal separation from the love of God.
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Matt 13:
47 Again the kingdom of heaven is like to a net cast into the sea, and gathering together of all kind of fishes. 48 Which, when it was filled, they drew out, and sitting by the shore, they chose out the good into vessels, but the bad they cast forth. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world. The angels shall go out, and shall separate the wicked from among the just. 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 51 Have ye understood all these things? They say to him: Yes.
NO!
I did not think that hell was a matter of unquenchable fire, but rather eternal separation from the love of God.
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[Edited by Moderator]
Matt 18:
8 And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Again, NO!
I did not think that hell was a matter of unquenchable fire, but rather eternal separation from the love of God.
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How about that John?
Apoc 20:*
9* And there came down fire from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and the devil, who seduced them, was cast into the** pool of fire and brimstone**, where both the beast 10 And the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

**Double NO!
**
I did not think that hell was a matter of unquenchable fire, but rather eternal separation from the love of God.
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Where is this hell? Where is purgatory? And for that matter, where is heaven? Traditionally and universally.
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Be patient. Eventually, you’ll know, for sure.
 
cor said:
The Catholic Encyclopedia (1913 IIRC) says it is not contrary to dogma to suppose that God releases a soul from Hell:

“In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell.”

newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

If God can do it by way of exception for one person, there’s no stopping Him from doing it by way of exception for everyone. This quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia also demonstrates the falsity of those who think that God can’t liberate a soul from hell without violating their free will.

The article does later say that theologians are now agreed that it never happens.
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Dear Cor:

If you read the referenced CE entry…you’ll also find this:
Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy.
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Gorman
 
Genesis315 said:
Also, the Novus Ordo Missal gives much more attention to Hell than than the Tridentine Missal which provides almost none at all. See here:

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605fea4.asp
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LOL. :rolleyes: As if 3 readings that mention Hell make up for the gay and goofy overall atmoshpere of Novus Ordo liturgies. I wonder how many priests end up using their “homily” to completely downplay the reality of hell that was just preached in the Scriptures? Priests used to do a much better job preaching about hell with less readings dealing with hell than modern priests do with these 3 extra hell-based readings. And where is hell mentioned in the “funeral” Masses in the Novus ordo? As +Dulles’ article points out, Requiem Masses with black vestments and prayers for the salvation of the deceased have been replaced with white moo-moo albs and little dances of celebration that the deceased is already in heaven-- despite whatever sinful life he or she may have lived. Also, I wonder if these 3 extra hell readings are mandatory or optional? My money is on optional, as most things in the Novus ordo are optional-- oh, except that one cannot speak poorly of the Novus ordo. That one’s an order. 😉
 
Carol_Coombe said:
Can you share the joke with me? I did not find it particularly amusing, and I did not get an answer as to where this place Hell is located.

Kind regards, Carol
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I believe traditionally or historically it was regarded as being literally under the earth. I don’t think modern science contradicts this since the powers of the souls of those in hell could be associated with that location in some manner.
 
Traditionally, only a few fathers and doctors of the early Church held to the doctrine of universalism, including Origen, Evagrius of Pontus (both anathematised by the first several Ecunemical Councils) and St Gregory of Nyssa. Most believed in the eternity of hell.

Today it would probably be heretical to affirm hell does not exist, but it is not wrong to hope God’s mercy and salvific will reach all at the end of ages and the final consumation at the last judgement. However I think it is important to retain hell as a radical existential possibility for each person who is offered the gift of salvation in any theology, as God demands a choice, a ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ to his love. Some will surely, for whatever reason, choose to reject it, and from our point of view, we must not expect such people to be saved if they reject God’s love to the very end.
 
Carol_Coombe said:
Can you share the joke with me? I did not find it particularly amusing, and I did not get an answer as to where this place Hell is located.

Kind regards, Carol
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You asked:
“Where is Hell, where is purgatory AND where is Heaven?”
They are the same place as souls are after death if you believe souls survive the death of the body.
Also, if you believe in the Resurrection of the Body, and they will abide in heaven, at least, then there has to be a physical dimension to at least, both Heaven & Hell.
After all, where is the Risen Christ?
He has to have His Body somewhere with a dimension.
I have to think heaven is “above” us somewhere otherwise the “Ascension” is a silly word.
Hell or purgatory mentioned in Scripture is always “descended into Hell”.
The exact place on the compass is not for you to know or anyone else on earth.
These may well be other dimension that we cannot enter until after death. Which means “above = Higher Dimension” and “Descended = lower or lessor dimension”, both of which may well be outside the time bubble.
That’s all.
In any case, is that a matter of salvation? Of course not. It’s an unanswerable theological curiosity.
That’s why I stated to be patient and you would find out.
Given that we will know after death, simply means have patience, and you and all will find out, which is the only valid response.
 
TNT said:
You asked:
“Where is Hell, where is purgatory AND where is Heaven?”
They are the same place as souls are after death if you believe souls survive the death of the body.
Also, if you believe in the Resurrection of the Body, and they will abide in heaven, at least, then there has to be a physical dimension to at least, both Heaven & Hell.
After all, where is the Risen Christ?
He has to have His Body somewhere with a dimension.
I have to think heaven is “above” us somewhere otherwise the “Ascension” is a silly word.
Hell or purgatory mentioned in Scripture is always “descended into Hell”.
The exact place on the compass is not for you to know or anyone else on earth.
These may well be other dimension that we cannot enter until after death. Which means “above = Higher Dimension” and “Descended = lower or lessor dimension”, both of which may well be outside the time bubble.
That’s all.
In any case, is that a matter of salvation? Of course not. It’s an unanswerable theological curiosity.
That’s why I stated to be patient and you would find out.
Given that we will know after death, simply means have patience, and you and all will find out, which is the only valid response.
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Thank you for this insightful response which covers a lot of country which will be difficult to explore for those of us more accustomed to think of heaven and hell as actual places for bodies, or as ethereal nonplaces where the divine spark of our sould resides with God and in God. ‘Outside the time bubble’ gives room for interpretation. But the reality of Christ’s body (in what state - before or after the Crucifiction?) and the resurrection of our bodies (at what age, and with what disabilities?) makes it all much more difficult to think about.
 
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