University of Stanford Shows that Book of Mormon......

[why_me]

And here is an interesting tidbit about david witmer one of the three witnesses:

A young Mormon lawyer, James Henry Moyle, who interviewed Whitmer in 1885, asked if there was any possibility that Whitmer had been deceived. “His answer was unequivocal…that he saw the plates and heard the angel with unmistakable clearness.” But Moyle went away “not fully satisfied…It was more spiritual than I anticipated.”[16] Yet Whitmer ordered his testimony to the Book of Mormon placed on his tombstone.

Now in all fairness, as david got older and older and as he was asked about his experiences, he gave different impressions. But…on his tombstone he wanted his testimony of the book of mormon to be written and so it was.

 

[why_me]

Now why did I post the preceding posts? To claim that mormonism is true? No. But rather to increase the level of discussion. What needs to be discussed is the undying testimony of the witnesses to the book of mormon and not base accusations from the internet interpretations. And the undying testimony of sidney rigdon needs to be included.

And here is a fact: this is what makes mormonism so powerful and strong. No one fessed up and they went to their maker giving testimony of the book of mormon.

 

[evanfaust]

I have seen a lot of gnashing of teeth over this study, but no one other than LDS apologists have said it can’t be true

Rejection of the Spaulding theory by critics of the Book of Mormon

**Many critics of the Book of Mormon reject the Spaulding theory as unworkable: **

Davis H. Bays, The Doctrines and Dogmas of Mormonism Examined and Refuted, (St. Louis: Christian Publishing, 1897), 22, 25

*This theory is] “erroneous, and it will lead to almost certain defeat… The facts are all opposed to this view, and the defenders of the Mormon dogma have the facts well in hand… The Spaulding story is a failure. Do not attempt to rely upon it — it will let you down.” *

Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History (New York, A. A. Knopf, 1945), 453

*“The tenuous chain of evidence accumulated to support the Spaulding-Rigdon theory breaks altogether when it tries to prove that Rigdon met Joseph Smith before 1830.” *

Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Did Spaulding Write the Book of Mormon? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1977).

One might ask the question: If Mormonism’s most prominent critics find the Spalding theory unworkable, then what motivates those who tenuously hold to this theory and continue to pursue it? Those that continue to promote this theory have not effectively dealt with the major objections highlighted by other anti-Mormon critics.

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Authorship_theories/Spalding_manuscript

 

[StevieD]

It does not look good for sidney as author as the information I provided demonstrates. What do you think Stevie?

When Rigdon failed to be made leader after Smith’s death, he publicly threatened Brigham Young that he would expose the secrets of the ‘church’. Young threatened in return that if he did, Rigdon’s own secrets would be exposed.
Rigdon would have been aware that Brigham Young was prepared to use violence to protect the ‘church’ and his position in it. The ‘church’ also had a ‘long arm’. If I had been Rigdon, I would have thought it prudent to keep quiet to protect myself, my family and my own reputation by not exposing the ‘secrets’ he had. Rigdon had his wife burn all his papers after his death (I wonder why?).
I am happy to accept the conclusions of those who have determined that Rigdon was among the authors of the BoM and possibly the main one.

 

[SirThomasMore]

And here is another account of John Witmer:

The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.

Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
**Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.**
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q -** Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us**.

moroni10.com/witnesses/John_Whitmer.html

Now if Malenie did not have me on ignore she would have read these accounts over and over again. But trust me, I will be reading the same spiritual eyes routine again on this forum from the same people that I have repeatedly proven wrong.

Ok…if one were to believe this account, then no way Joseph, on a bum leg, outruns several people

 

[SirThomasMore]

You were wrong Paul as I have just proven. John Witmer and others have testified that they saw and felt the plates.

Whitmer was simply one of the co-conspirators. You proved nothing He was one Joseph called a liar. So, if Joe is right and he is a liar, how can we beleive what he says about the plates?.

 

[PaulDupre]

No one wants to be remembered after death as a fraud and a criminal conspirator, nor does he want to leave behind a legacy of shame and guilt for his family. The death-bed testimony * of a man like Whitmer means nothing, as he was a liar all his life (as Joseph Smith testified that he was).

• …assuming that this testimony ever really took place.

 

[SirThomasMore]

The Witnesses

According to Grant Palmer, the Book of Mormon witnesses had a “nineteenth-century magical mindset” rather than “a rationalist perspective.” They believed in what was called “second sight. Traditionally, this included the ability to see spirits and their dwelling places within the local hills and elsewhere.”[7] A number of the witnesses possessed and used seer stones; Oliver Cowdery was a rodsman.[8] As Tufts University professor John L. Brooke has observed, many of the earliest Mormons were “very much attuned to the supernatural powers of witchcraft.”[9] “Far removed from our own modern empiricism, the world view of the witnesses is difficult for us to grasp,” and thus it is less impressive that “three signatories to the Book of Mormon saw and heard an angel.”[10]
All the witnesses were family, close friends, or financial backers of Joseph Smith. Cowdery, Page, and the five Whitmers were related by marriage.[11] Mark Twain later joked, “I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified.”[12]
Martin Harris was said to have stated that the Eight Witnesses never saw the plates, and “hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it.”[13] Although Harris continued to testify to the truth of the Book of Mormon even when he was estranged from the church, at least during the early years of the movement, he “seems to have repeatedly admitted the internal, subjective nature of his visionary experience.”[14]
In Doctrine and Covenants 5: 11-14, revealed to Joseph Smith in March 1829, the Three Witnesses are told that they will be given power to see the golden plates, “to behold and view these things…and to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation.” In 2 Nephi 27:13, a translation completed in the late spring or early summer of the same year, the Three are told that “none other…shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God,” thus allowing for the inclusion of the Eight Witnesses.[15]
Joseph Smith later impugned the integrity of at least four of the Witnesses before they left or were expelled from the Church: “Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them.”[16]
After Smith’s assassination, James Strang, claiming to be Smith’s chosen successor, also produced buried plates and the testimony of eleven witnesses to their authenticity. All living witnesses to the Book of Mormon (except possibly Cowdery)—three of the Whitmers, Martin Harris, and Hiram Page—accepted at least briefly Strang’s “leadership, angelic call, metal plates, and his translation of these plates as authentic.”[17]
Years later, Mormon leader Brigham Young said that some “witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel.”[18]

 

[evanfaust]

When Rigdon failed to be made leader after Smith’s death, he publicly threatened Brigham Young that he would expose the secrets of the ‘church’. Young threatened in return that if he did, Rigdon’s own secrets would be exposed.
Rigdon would have been aware that Brigham Young was prepared to use violence to protect the ‘church’ and his position in it. The ‘church’ also had a ‘long arm’. If I had been Rigdon, I would have thought it prudent to keep quiet to protect myself, my family and my own reputation by not exposing the ‘secrets’ he had. Rigdon had his wife burn all his papers after his death (I wonder why?).
I am happy to accept the conclusions of those who have determined that Rigdon was among the authors of the BoM and possibly the main one.

Possible Sources for the Book of Mormon

These fall into three categories and just in case you are wondering, with the exception of perhaps the last two, all of these are scenarios posed by critics of the LDS faith.

Here is how the possibilities are laid out:

Subjective (Psychological) Explanations
Individual Hallucination (by Joseph Smith)
Collective Hallucination (by Joseph Smith, the Witnesses, etc.)
Objective Reality, but Fraudulent
Individual Deceit (practiced by Joseph Smith, unaided)
Collective Deceit (by Joseph Smith, the Witnesses, etc.)
Collective Deceit (by Joseph Smith and some external individual or group)
Collaboration of external group with Joseph Smith
Exploitation of external group by Joseph Smith
Objective Reality, with “Supernatural” Explanations
Supernatural but demonic
True scripture, but not ancient
True scripture (the traditional explanation)

fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Source_of_the_Book_of_Mormon_Looking_at_Alternative_Explanations.html

 

[why_me]

No one wants to be remembered after death as a fraud and a criminal conspirator, nor does he want to leave behind a legacy of shame and guilt for his family. The death-bed testimony * of a man like Whitmer means nothing, as he was a liar all his life (as Joseph Smith testified that he was).

• …assuming that this testimony ever really took place.

Your post really does not cut the mustard. We are speaking about more than one person giving a deathbed testimony. And whitmer claimed that he saw and felt the plates as did hiram page. This contradicts melanie. That was my point.

I suppose that everything in religion can be assumed except when it suits us.

Amazing how people can blacken people’s names that were around during the book of mormon testimonies. But…their reputations were basically intact when they passed on.

 

[why_me]

When Rigdon failed to be made leader after Smith’s death, he publicly threatened Brigham Young that he would expose the secrets of the ‘church’. Young threatened in return that if he did, Rigdon’s own secrets would be exposed.
.

I don’t think so. Now here is a question. Who was present when such a threat was made? Was the congregation there? Was it just BY and sidney? Sorry, your post just doesn’t cut mustard. You really must read how the choice was made. It was democratic vote. Also, many people present testified that as brigham was speaking his voice took on the voice of Joseph Smith and the congregation knew that BY was to lead the church. But nice try.

And then, of course, rigdon gives his deathbed testimony in 1876 to his family that he did not write the book of mormon. ( I gave you proof about this somewhere on the threads because you asked for it) You really need to get away from those critical sites of mormonism. With all the lies and corruption that they insist were committed it is amazing that the church survived. Also, if the lds church was a fraud, BY would want to be the first to know about it. He had no interest in keeping it all going.

 

[why_me]

Ok…if one were to believe this account, then no way Joseph, on a bum leg, outruns several people

I have no idea what you are talking about but nice try with the red herring. This red herring word that you have used often is pretty good. But it is really not my style.

Joseph was running for most of his life in mormonism. Such was his life at that time.

 

[SirThomasMore]

I have no idea what you are talking about but nice try with the red herring. This red herring word that you have used often is pretty good. But it is really not my style.

Joseph was running for most of his life in mormonism. Such was his life at that time.

Nope. It was just another of Joseph’s lies. Your deflection from it does not change it at all

 

[StevieD]

Also, many people present testified that as brigham was speaking his voice took on the voice of Joseph Smith and the congregation knew that BY was to lead the church.

Strange that the contemporary reports of that meeting fail to mention this ‘miracle’, this story came later, like so many of the LDS legends. But nice try.
You should stop reading all those slippery, truth-bending LDS sites. (In my home city which was a Roman fort, they can hardly dig a hole without coming across Roman remains and artefacts, how are the BYU archaeologists doing finding the remains of all those BoM wars? Or perhaps they never happened ! DNA, linguistics, anthropology, archaeology and every other science you can think of all point one way - it really DIDN’T happen, no matter who wrote what and who said what and when. Happily many mormons are waking up to these truths). You’re determined to be convinced - so be it, buy the snake oil.

 

[PaulDupre]

why me:

Also, many people present testified that as brigham was speaking his voice took on the voice of Joseph Smith and the congregation knew that BY was to lead the church.

And apostle Orson Hyde is quoted in the JoD saying in a General Conference talk that Brigham Young was “a complete mimic and could mimic anybody” (JoD Vol 13, p181).

Not much of a miracle…

 

[twopekinguys]

Possible Sources for the Book of Mormon

These fall into three categories and just in case you are wondering, with the exception of perhaps the last two, all of these are scenarios posed by critics of the LDS faith.

Here is how the possibilities are laid out:

Subjective (Psychological) Explanations
Individual Hallucination (by Joseph Smith)
Collective Hallucination (by Joseph Smith, the Witnesses, etc.)
Objective Reality, but Fraudulent
Individual Deceit (practiced by Joseph Smith, unaided)
Collective Deceit (by Joseph Smith, the Witnesses, etc.)
Collective Deceit (by Joseph Smith and some external individual or group)
Collaboration of external group with Joseph Smith
Exploitation of external group by Joseph Smith
Objective Reality, with “Supernatural” Explanations
Supernatural but demonic
True scripture, but not ancient
True scripture (the traditional explanation)

fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Source_of_the_Book_of_Mormon_Looking_at_Alternative_Explanations.html

Then of course, there are these possibilities for the BoM

“Solomon Spaulding was born in Ashford, Conn. in 1761, and in early life contracted a taste for literary pursuits… After preaching three or four years, he gave it up, removed to Cherry Valley, N.Y., and commenced the mercantile business in company with his brother Jasiah. In a few years he failed in business, and in the year 1809 removed to Conneaut, in Ohio. The year following, I removed to Ohio, and found him engaged in building a forge. I made him a visit in about three years after; and found that he had failed, and considerably involved in debt. He then told me had he been writing a book, which he intended to have printed, the avails of which he thought would enable him to pay all his debts. The book was entitled the ‘Manuscript Found,’ of which he read to me many passages. It was an historical romance of the first settlers of America, endeavoring to show that the American Indians are the descendants of the Jews, or the lost tribes. It gave a detailed account of their journey from Jerusalem, by land and sea, till they arrived in America, under the command of NEPHI AND LEHI. They afterwards had quarrels and contentions, and separated into two distinct nations, one of which he denominated Nephites and the other Lamanites. Cruel and bloody wars ensued, in which great multitudes were slain. They buried their dead in large heaps, which cause the mounds so common in this country. Their arts, sciences, and civilizations were brought into view, in order to account for all the curious antiquities, found in various parts of North and South America. I have recently read the Book of Mormon, and to my great surprise I find nearly the same historical matter, names, &c. as they were in my brother’s writings. I well remember that he wrote in the old style, and commenced about every sentence with ‘and it came to pass,’ or ‘now it came to pass,’ the same as in the Book of Mormon, and according to the best of my recollection and belief, it is the same as my brother Solomon wrote, with the exception of the religious matter. By what means it has fallen into the hands of Joseph Smith, Jr. I am unable to determine.”

There are several more statements very similar that can be found here:

ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/manuscriptfound.html

• John Spalding, brother of Solomon, Affidavit, as quoted in Mormonism Unveiled, by E.D. Howe, pp. 278-280

 

[twopekinguys]

I have no idea what you are talking about but nice try with the red herring. This red herring word that you have used often is pretty good. But it is really not my style.

Joseph was running for most of his life in mormonism. Such was his life at that time.

"You don’t know of good ol joe’s saving the plates from assailants? Let me help you out with it.

After removing the plates from the stone box, Joseph hid them in a birch log until preparations could be made at home for the plates. then he went to retrieve them.

“The plates were secreted about three miles from home…Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home.”

After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house." (Lucy Mack Smith, mother of Joseph Smith, in Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, 1853, pp. 104-105; Comp. reprinted edition by Bookcraft Publishers in 1956 under the title History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, pp. 107- 108)

Please notice the source of this information. It is a source that is obviously biased **toward **mormonism.

You know that good ol joe had a problem with his leg too right?

 

[SirThomasMore]

So, on a bad leg AND carrying at least 50 pounds, he was able to outrun three men, knock them down, and make it safely home. And this was not across a football field, this was three miles over country…hills, trees, holes, etc.

I have had 6 surgeries on my right knee. I can tell you, it would be darned near impossible for me to outrun three men unless they were in wheelchairs.

I also grew up in the country. Running over terrain like he ran is far from easy, especially in the dark.

I also, growing up in the country, had a lot of dogs. We bought dogfood by the 50-pound bag. Now, I was in good shape when I was in high school and college. I played football, I ran 10ks, I practiced martial arts. I also lifted weights and, at my best, could bench 350, and did 225 for reps.

I could not have carried a 50-poind bag of dogfood in the country at night and outrun three men, even before I blew out my knee.

His story is simply not true.