Unjust war vs abortion

[meltzerboy]

Really now? What do you think infantry do? War is not as “push button” as you think.

The death of the innocent must only be an unintentional side-effect and must be proportionate.

That true. But it is military targets that we are aiming at. We do not fight wars by bombing each other’s elementary schools as you asserted earlier, no one intends the death of innocents.

No, war is using violence to solve a problem – “war is a continuation of politics by other means”. Not all violence is murder. Recall the definition of murder used above – the intentional and direct killing of people who are known to be innocent.

I am not a doctor. I was simply stating a fact – that you can do something to fix the problem, which is the heart. You cannot murder a child in hopes that it will relieve the stress on the mother’s heart. You cannot commit evil that good may come of it.

Like what?

No doctor in their right mind is going to murder a child. Yet we are living in a culture where it seems few people are in their right mind…

Okay and what is your solution? The child is not a criminal and the mother is not an executioner appointed by the State. You cannot commit murder under any circumstances. Any.

I am saying that you must address what is the actual problem. The actual problem of a tubal pregnancy is a burst tube. If there was a tumor, then you could remove the tumor because tumors are unnatural and may be removed – they are a disorder. They are not human beings, children are not a disorder in a woman’s body that needs to be cured.

She needs to confess her sin and be reconciled to God.

My opinion is meaningless. The unlawfulness of murder is God’s opinion.

It is illicit to commit murder for any cause.

Because war casualties are either enemy soldiers, who are not innocent, or innocent people whose death was unintentional. If murder, rape, or other crimes occur in the course of war, they are crimes that happen to occur during a war, they are not the waging of war itself.

I understand your distinction between the “unintentional side effects” of war (what used to be called “collateral damage”) and abortion, which is intentional. But what about the argument that the saving of the mother’s life by aborting the child (who, in some cases, will also die if the mother dies), is a form of “self-defense” on the part of the mother? Does Catholicism allow self-defense on the battlefield even though it is intentional? If so, then the mother may be, in a sense, defending her own life in the case of an abortion, if her life is in danger otherwise. True, this is not a perfect analogy since the unborn child is an innocent, not an enemy, and also cannot defend their own life; still, I think there may be some merit to the self-defense argument, bizarre as it may sound. Also, are you aware that the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” really should be translated from the Hebrew as “Thou shalt not murder,” which has a particular meaning in Hebrew. (I realize there are other scriptural references that add to the concept.) Killing under certain circumstances (as in self-defense) is permissible. Abortion under the circumstances described here may be regarded more as killing than murder.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I understand you distinction between the “unintentional side effects” of war (what used to be called “collateral damage”) and abortion, which is intentional. But what about the argument that the saving of the mother’s life by aborting the child (who, in some cases, will also die if the mother dies), is a form of “self-defense” on the part of the mother? Does Catholicism allow self-defense on the battlefield even though it is intentional? If so, then the mother may be, in a sense, defending her own life in the case of an abortion, if her life is in danger otherwise. True, this is not a perfect analogy since the unborn child is an innocent, not an enemy, and also cannot defend their own life; still, I think there may be some merit to the self-defense argument, bizarre as it may sound.

So you’re saying the child is not innocent but a violent criminal?

 

[meltzerboy]

So you’re saying the child is not innocent but a violent criminal?

No, I’m saying the child is innocent and that’s why my analogy is not perfect. Please also read my edited comment and tell me what you think.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

No, I’m saying the child is innocent and that’s why my analogy is not perfect. Please also read my edited comment and tell me what you think.

No, the self-defense argument is false by the very fact that the child is innocent. It is sometimes necessary to kill a criminal, either through self-defense or licit execution. It is never licit to (intentionally and directly) kill an innocent person.

 

[meltzerboy]

No, the self-defense argument is false by the very fact that the child is innocent. It is sometimes necessary to kill a criminal, either through self-defense or licit execution. It is never licit to (intentionally and directly) kill an innocent person.

What do you mean by licit execution? Is the death penalty acceptable in Catholicism under certain circumstances?

 

[meltzerboy]

No, the self-defense argument is false by the very fact that the child is innocent. It is sometimes necessary to kill a criminal, either through self-defense or licit execution. It is never licit to (intentionally and directly) kill an innocent person.

I take it therefore you are opposed to the bombings of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden in World War II, which targeted civilians, not enemy combatants. The case has been made by some Americans that the Japanese civilians were militaristic and not innocent, and besides it ended the war and averted more casualties on both sides. I don’t buy that argument.

 

[benidict]

Whether you stand in the way or not doesn’t change the gravely immoral act of abortion into anything acceptable.

Is not preventing someone from Attempting to save their own life, also gravely Immoral? If it was your wife. would you see her getting a life saving procedure such as this, gravely Immoral? Can you honestly tell me Dave, that you would let your wife die?

 

[benidict]

Killing the child in the womb isn’t saving a life, it is murder.

Killing a Child on the battle field, outside the womb, or any non combatant, could be seen as the same. Are you saying that the death of a Child in this circumstance is always murder? despite the fact the soldier did every thing in his power to prevent it? I would propose the ptsd this triggers, is the same for a soldier, as for a woman, that has had this procedure. They both deserve your compassion. Not your condemnation.

 

[benidict]

Intentional and direct murder of a person who is known to be innocent is always a serious crime, there are no circumstances which can make it a licit act. Abortion is the intentional and direct murder of an innocent person, thus it can never be licit.

So why would you want women to suffer by legalizing the murder of their children?

If a person does not have the use of reason (such as a mentally disabled woman or a young child who isn’t told what is going on), they know what abortion does, they cannot claim ignorance. They may try to construct twisted logic that a human being is not really a human being, that some people are “sub-human” (or untermensch) and that their murder isn’t “really” murder, but this self-deception is not logical and thus doesn’t excuse the act.

So I will ask you the same question. I will phrase it a little different though, so as not to fully repeat myself. If your 14 year old daughter, was pregnant, and the doctors determined that the Pregancy would end in your daughters death, You as a parent would Allow Your Child to die? Am I hearing you right? You would sacrifice the life of Your child?

 

[benidict]

You cannot directly terminate a pregnancy (i.e. murder a child) which has implanted in the tube. What you can do is remove the actual problem – the burst tube. The child is not the problem, the tube is.

And if this is not an inconsistentcy in our teaching, then I dont know what is.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

What do you mean by licit execution? Is the death penalty acceptable in Catholicism under certain circumstances?

Of course. Why would the death penalty not be acceptable? Have you read the Mosaic Law recently? Plenty of executions…

 

[benidict]

I agree with your position here and this is exactly the justification used in Orthodox Judaism: if BOTH mother and child will die without aborting the child, it is considered moral to perform the abortion, in which at least the mother’s life will be spared. It is the same reasoning used in the case of conjoined twins who must be separated: if the surgery means that ONE will die, and, at the same time, if no surgery means they will BOTH die, then Orthodox Judaism advocates that the surgery be performed to save ONE life rather than forfeit BOTH. I believe Catholicism takes a different stance on this and says that surgery should NOT be performed because it is the willful murder of one life, whereas not performing surgery means the natural death–not murder–of both lives. These are both horrible choices with which families are confronted.

Exactly! This Is why I pay alot of attention to what the Jewish teachers have to say about issues like this. They do have a much better sense of balance when it comes to morality, on some very tough issues.

 

[benidict]

Pilgrim To Christ-That true. But it is military targets that we are aiming at. We do not fight wars by bombing each other’s elementary schools as you asserted earlier, no one intends the death of innocents
ME- Really? Are you 100% sure of this statement?

 

[benidict]

So if I defend myself from an attacker and kill the attacker, I have committed murder and deserve to die?

If the State executes a murderer or someone guilty of another capital crime, they are murderous?

Not every killing of a person is murder.

Then you are using a different definition of “murder”, that is the only way you can say that murder is licit in any circumstance.

And not every abortion is murder.

 

[benidict]

Of course. Why would the death penalty not be acceptable? Have you read the Mosaic Law recently? Plenty of executions…

For what crimes is the death penalty approved of by our Church. I already know the answer to this, But I want your view. I am also a big fan of the death penalty. God Bless Texas! And Virginia, they have a rocket docket.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Is not preventing someone from Attempting to save their own life, also gravely Immoral? If it was your wife. would you see her getting a life saving procedure such as this, gravely Immoral? Can you honestly tell me Dave, that you would let your wife die?

I’m not Dave but of course I would rather die myself or watch my friend or sister die than commit a sin! This sin especially is so heinous and premeditated that it seems very easy to avoid. I may fall into much more subtle sins involving pride, anger, lust, etc., I could even see perhaps murdering someone during a fight than having a cold-hearted, premeditated plan or hiring a hitman to kill for me. Having an abortion is quite like hiring a hitman, it takes a lot of effort, you don’t really just accidentally fall into it out of weakness, it’s pretty definite.

Sorry, but murdering my children is not an option for any reason. I can’t murder one in hopes that the remaining children might have a better life. If there is a way to solve whatever issue there is, then there is a way to solve it, but only within reason and morality. Murder doesn’t solve anything. Everybody dies eventually, I wouldn’t want to have to stand before God and answer for the crime of murdering my own children. The results would not be pretty, much worse than anything nature can dish out (including death).

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

So I will ask you the same question. I will phrase it a little different though, so as not to fully repeat myself. If your 14 year old daughter, was pregnant, and the doctors determined that the Pregancy would end in your daughters death, You as a parent would Allow Your Child to die? Am I hearing you right? You would sacrifice the life of Your child?

Would I rather sacrifice the life of my grandchild? No parent in their right mind would put their child through that kind of spiritual and psychological hell as to turn them into a murderer!

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

And not every abortion is murder.

Murder = the intentional and direct killing of a person known to be innocent
Abortion = the intentional and direct killing of a person known to be innocent

Can you clarify?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

For what crimes is the death penalty approved of by our Church. I already know the answer to this, But I want your view. I am also a big fan of the death penalty. God Bless Texas! And Virginia, they have a rocket docket.

If it is necessary that a sinner die in order to keep his sin from corrupting and infecting the whole nation, then they may be put to death in order to secure the common good. That includes any of the usual crimes of murder, rape, treason, heresy, etc.

Summa:

Now every part is directed to the whole, as imperfect to perfect, wherefore every part is naturally for the sake of the whole. For this reason we observe that if the health of the whole body demands the excision of a member, through its being decayed or infectious to the other members, it will be both praiseworthy and advantageous to have it cut away. Now every individual person is compared to the whole community, as part to whole. Therefore if a man be dangerous and infectious to the community, on account of some sin, it is praiseworthy and advantageous that he be killed in order to safeguard the common good, since “a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump” (1 Corinthians 5:6).

 

[benidict]

Would I rather sacrifice the life of my grandchild? No parent in their right mind would put their child through that kind of spiritual and psychological hell as to turn them into a murderer!

please clarify. Its a yes or no question. Would you as the responsible parent who has to make the descison, allow your daughter to Die?