Unjust war vs abortion

[benidict]

If it is necessary that a sinner die in order to keep his sin from corrupting and infecting the whole nation, then they may be put to death in order to secure the common good. That includes any of the usual crimes of murder, rape, treason, heresy, etc.

Interesting. And what does the Cathecism state? I know it states for grave crimes, but it does not specify does it?

 

[benidict]

Murder = the intentional and direct killing of a person known to be innocent
Abortion = the intentional and direct killing of a person known to be innocent

Can you clarify?

Sure can. If the intent Is to save the mothers life, that is a far cry from someone using this procedure as a means of birth control. So if i shoot a child who is running at me with a grenade, who was put up to it by an adult, and who in his heart does not understand what he is doing, If I shoot that innocent child to save my life and my battle buddies life, am i guilty of Murder?

 

[cathoichelp]

Really now? What do you think infantry do? War is not as “push button” as you think.

we know that innocent people will be killed as a result of an action we intetnionaly take that is YOUR definition - of murder so war is murder! A gun is meant to kill a bomb is meant to kill that is the nature of the thing you are using …

The death of the innocent must only be an unintentional side-effect and must be proportionate.

That true. But it is military targets that we are aiming at. We do not fight wars by bombing each other’s elementary schools as you asserted earlier, no one intends the death of innocents.

The aim of ending a pregnancy for medical reasons is not murdering the child its saving the mother the pregnancy is lost as a result its indirect

No, war is using violence to solve a problem – “war is a continuation of politics by other means”. Not all violence is murder. Recall the definition of murder used above – the intentional and direct killing of people who are known to be innocent.
you can murder someone if they are innocent of not … you don’t seem to understand what murder is

I am not a doctor. I was simply stating a fact – that you can do something to fix the problem, which is the heart. You cannot murder a child in hopes that it will relieve the stress on the mother’s heart. You cannot commit evil that good may come of it.

it’s not murdering a child … and it is not IN HOPES - its when it is KNOWN that ending the pregnancy will save the life of the mother

Like what?

No doctor in their right mind is going to murder a child. Yet we are living in a culture where it seems few people are in their right mind…

Okay and what is your solution? The child is not a criminal and the mother is not an executioner appointed by the State. You cannot commit murder under any circumstances. Any.

I am saying that you must address what is the actual problem. The actual problem of a tubal pregnancy is a burst tube. If there was a tumor, then you could remove the tumor because tumors are unnatural and may be removed – they are a disorder. They are not human beings, children are not a disorder in a woman’s body that needs to be cured.

The actual problem is whatever is INSIDE the tube - the embryo implanted in the tube the tube was fine … had the it not implanted there it would still be fine … removing the tube removes the problem … although i think its sad that accordinf to the church this woman has to loss one of her tubes so the language sounds like like murder… I can see God scratching his head up in heaven … saying - so either way you ended this pregnancy but now you have damaged the body of the mother so that it sounds like you didn’t kill a baby… what?

She needs to confess her sin and be reconciled to God.

she is not catholic nor has she sinned … I know her intent as does God … it is you that seem to be confused

My opinion is meaningless. The unlawfulness of murder is God’s opinion.

True and God knows a persons intent better than you

It is illicit to commit murder for any cause.

Because war casualties are either enemy soldiers, who are not innocent, or innocent people whose death was unintentional. If murder, rape, or other crimes occur in the course of war, they are crimes that happen to occur during a war, they are not the waging of war itself.

 

[cathoichelp]

Sure can. If the intent Is to save the mothers life, that is a far cry from someone using this procedure as a means of birth control. So if i shoot a child who is running at me with a grenade, who was put up to it by an adult, and who in his heart does not understand what he is doing, If I shoot that innocent child to save my life and my battle buddies life, am i guilty of Murder?

Thanks I went to bed

 

[cathoichelp]

And not every abortion is murder.

Exactly not every abortion has the same intent.

 

[cathoichelp]

No, the self-defense argument is false by the very fact that the child is innocent. It is sometimes necessary to kill a criminal, either through self-defense or licit execution. It is never licit to (intentionally and directly) kill an innocent person.

The child is not the enemy you are right -
its the effect the pregnancy is having on her body … being pregnant in this sense would be the problem.
The child alone has done nothing wrong … but her body is reacting to pregnancy in a way that is threatening her life.
the pregnancy needs to end in order for her to live.
the unborn dies as a result of the pregnancy being removed…
no one aims a gun at the child and shoots… it is not direct murder of an unborn child -
the pregnancy ends and this results in the loss of the unborn … as a result of having intent to save the mother

now if the child were outside of its mother … and in no way needed her body to support the pregnancy and she killed the child that would be direct MURDER

Your body changes as a result of pregnancy and those changes last while you are pregnant -
like having diabetes or hypertension … its your bodies response to the pregnancy - not so much to the baby but to what carrying another life inside your own body does as far as straining your system.

Directly killing someone would be just that … trying to kill them. When a women is pregnant its a little hazy … because while considering the child a separate person is 100 percent correct you also have to consider that that person can not survive outside of the womb that it is in.
If the mother can not carry that pregnancy that pregnancy can not continue
The problem is not the w evil done by the mother or evil done by the child … its with a failed system- failed life support her body can not carry it close enough to term.

 

[benidict]

Pilgrim To Christ-That true. But it is military targets that we are aiming at. We do not fight wars by bombing each other’s elementary schools as you asserted earlier, no one intends the death of innocents
ME- Really? Are you 100% sure of this statement?

Alright Pilgrim. I shall help you out. Hiroshema. We targeted men, women, children, the unborn, schools, temples, innocent people. Why? to save millions of more lives that would have been lost, if we would have launched an invasion. Was it the right call? Yep. It sure was. No doubt, but truly horrible in its evil all the same.

 

[cathoichelp]

Sure can. If the intent Is to save the mothers life, that is a far cry from someone using this procedure as a means of birth control. So if i shoot a child who is running at me with a grenade, who was put up to it by an adult, and who in his heart does not understand what he is doing, If I shoot that innocent child to save my life and my battle buddies life, am i guilty of Murder?

I think by Catholic logic you would have to let the child blow you up - because if a child was running at you with a grenade in a war it would be safe to assume this child is being forced to do this … doesn’t understand - it would be almost impossible physiologically to get a child to do this otherwise - w/o brainwashing them - lying to them -
so that child would be innocent - that child would be as much a victim as you - just like a mother who’s life will end due to pregnancy complications.
If you shoot this child you are taking the life of an innocent who is only harming you by circumstances outside it’s own control.

but if you scream and drop your gun and it shoots him by accident … well that is ok cuz it was indirect… or maybe if you trip him and he explodes that would be ok cuz all you did was trip him to remove the grenade - the grenade really killed him-

 

[benidict]

I think by Catholic logic you would have to let the child blow you up - because if a child was running at you with a grenade in a war it would be safe to assume this child is being forced to do this … doesn’t understand - it would be almost impossible physiologically to get a child to do this otherwise - w/o brainwashing them - lying to them -
so that child would be innocent - that child would be as much a victim as you - just like a mother who’s life will end due to pregnancy complications.
If you shoot this child you are taking the life of an innocent who is only harming you by circumstances outside it’s own control.

but if you scream and drop your gun and it shoots him by accident … well that is ok cuz it was indirect… or maybe if you trip him and he explodes that would be ok cuz all you did was trip him to remove the grenade - the grenade really killed him-

BINGO! You get it! According to my brothers and sisters, I would have to lower my weapon and let the child kill me and my battles. After all, The kid who is trying to kill us, is innocent. This is not theoretical, or hypothetical. I have a very close friend who had this happen in Viet Nam. He had to kill a drugged up 10 year old girl who was walking at them pulling pins off a grenade vest. It totally screwed him up. He is an alchoholic to this day. No matter what descision he made, he was going to pay. I know he made the right one, at the expense of his mental health.

 

[cathoichelp]

BINGO! You get it! According to my brothers and sisters, I would have to lower my weapon and let the child kill me and my battles. After all, The kid who is trying to kill us, is innocent. This is not theoretical, or hypothetical. I have a very close friend who had this happen in Viet Nam. He had to kill a drugged up 10 year old girl who was walking at them pulling pins off a grenade vest. It totally screwed him up. He is an alchoholic to this day. No matter what descision he made, he was going to pay. I know he made the right one, at the expense of his mental health.

so sad
But such is war! Life is not black and white or always simple.
I can’t imagine a God who doesn’t understand that.

 

[benidict]

so sad
But such is war! Life is not black and white or always simple.
I can’t imagine a God who doesn’t understand that.

Thank you. And I cannot conceive of a God that cannot understand that a woman sometimes must terminate a pregancy to save her life for the benefit of her other children. There are alot of people who need our compassion, and Loving presence to heal. They can do without the condemnation or hostility of folks who have not waked in their shoes. Peace

 

[meltzerboy]

Alright Pilgrim. I shall help you out. Hiroshema. We targeted men, women, children, the unborn, schools, temples, innocent people. Why? to save millions of more lives that would have been lost, if we would have launched an invasion. Was it the right call? Yep. It sure was. No doubt, but truly horrible in its evil all the same.

I notice Pilgrim did not answer my comment (check it out if you wish) about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Innocent civilians were indeed murdered. To justify this, some have said that the civilian population in Japan was similar to the military in their national zeal. The “better” justification is the one you point out. For myself, I find it difficult to justify anyway, perhaps due to the sheer numbers of people killed. (Abortion opponents under any circumstances talk about numbers as well.) However, I realize I was NEVER in that situation, NEVER in the military as you are, just as Pilgrim was NEVER a mother faced with the terrible decision of aborting her own child to save herself. My belief is that when people find themselves in horrible situations such as these, rather than merely discussing them from the comfort of their own home as a kind of intellectual exercise, they may decide on very different behaviors from the ones they are advocating online. There are many of these so-called “moral dilemma” problems–one, for example, involving sacrificing one life to save many, and another having to resort to cannibalism to stay alive–none of which are so clearly defined even in theory let alone in practice. One’s religious beliefs may be able to help in justifying one’s behavior and in the aftermath; however, sometimes one must rely on one’s individual conscience in choosing the lesser of two evils.

 

[benidict]

I notice Pilgrim did not answer my comment (check it out if you wish) about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Innocent civilians were indeed murdered. To justify this, some have said that the civilian population in Japan was similar to the military in their national zeal. The “better” justification is the one you point out. For myself, I find it difficult to justify anyway, perhaps due to the sheer numbers of people killed. (Abortion opponents under any circumstances talk about numbers as well.) However, I realize I was NEVER in that situation, NEVER in the military as you are, just as Pilgrim was NEVER a mother faced with the terrible decision of aborting her own child to save herself. My belief is that when people find themselves in horrible situations such as these, rather than merely discussing them from the comfort of their own home as a kind of intellectual exercise, they may decide on very different behaviors from the ones they are advocating online. There are many of these so-called “moral dilemma” problems–one, for example, involving sacrificing one life to save many, and another having to resort to cannibalism to stay alive–none of which are so clearly defined even in theory let alone in practice. One’s religious beliefs may be able to help in justifying one’s behavior and in the aftermath; however, sometimes one must rely on one’s individual conscience in choosing the lesser of two evils.

Thank you my brother. You fully get it. I did not know you had brought this up. the sad fact is, is that we go to war for purely econimic reasons. None other. Are there some very good side benefits? Yes. I think we should have intervened sooner in ww2 to stop the genocide of the Jews in Germany. I am glad Saddam Is dead, I am glad his sons are dead. I am pleased that yassar arifat is dead. I popped a top and celebrated all these villians deaths. However, we NEVER go to war because of a cause or to remove an evil person. There ALWAYS is an economic reason. I Have a Priest who is a very good friend of mine, who was a child in Viet Nam during the war. He knows why we fought there, and it had nothing to DO with Viet Nam. It had to do with getting trade agreements with China. Thank you for the great post.

 

[meltzerboy]

Of course. Why would the death penalty not be acceptable? Have you read the Mosaic Law recently? Plenty of executions…

                                                                                            Actually, according to Mosaic Law, the death penalty is also VERY RARE IN PRACTICE due to the high threshold required, including two eyewitnesses to the crime, etc. In addition, the death penalty in Torah Judaism is thought to be the first step toward ATONEMENT on the part of the criminal so that their penalty in Gehenna (the Jewish approximation of Catholic Purgatory) by G-d is not so severe.

In other words, the death penalty–in addition to helping the victim and society–also helps the criminal. But since when does Catholicism follow (most of) the teachings of the Mosaic Law?

 

[cathoichelp]

I personally don’t believe in just war… necessary yes … but being necessary does not make something “just”

 

[benidict]

I personally don’t believe in just war… necessary yes … but being necessary does not make something “just”

The only Just conflict, is the one that can be avoided in the first place.

 

[cathoichelp]

The only Just conflict, is the one that can be avoided in the first place.

 

[meltzerboy]

If it is necessary that a sinner die in order to keep his sin from corrupting and infecting the whole nation, then they may be put to death in order to secure the common good. That includes any of the usual crimes of murder, rape, treason, heresy, etc.

Thank you for this information. I was not at all aware of it; I had thought Catholicism was totally against the death penalty. Are you sure the crime of rape is to be included in the list?

 

[benidict]

I mentioned this on another thread based on what I read, namely that it is Catholic teaching that if there is a choice between saving the mother’s life by aborting the unborn child, the unborn child takes precedence because they are not baptized and their soul would go to limbo, while the mother’s soul may be saved. In Orthodox Judaism, the terrible decision is in favor of saving the mother’s life.

That is interesting Meltzerboy. They cannot authoritively say an unbaptized child goes to limbo. Limbo is not dogma. We have some freedom of thought in what happens to a babies soul. Purtgatory on the other hand, IS dogma. I already am sure I will be spending quite a bit of time there…They really cannot use this line of argument. And a child who has commited no sin, will quite doubfully be in purgatory.

 

[meltzerboy]

That is interesting Meltzerboy. They cannot authoritively say an unbaptized child goes to limbo. Limbo is not dogma. We have some freedom of thought in what happens to a babies soul. Purtgatory on the other hand, IS dogma. I already am sure I will be spending quite a bit of time there…They really cannot use this line of argument. And a child who has commited no sin, will quite doubfully be in purgatory.

The Catholic argument concerning the “destination” of a child who is unbaptized, including by desire, is an ongoing topic of discussion on another thread. I can’t pretend to make sense of it all; I have enough trouble trying to understand the myriad nuances of Judaism! Hope to meet up with you one day in either Gehenna (Jewish Purgatory) or Catholic Purgatory. I can also use a cleansing.