Unjust war vs abortion

[benidict]

The Catholic argument concerning the “destination” of a child who is unbaptized, including by desire, is an ongoing topic of discussion on another thread. I can’t pretend to make sense of it all; I have enough trouble trying to understand the myriad nuances of Judaism! Hope to meet up with you one day in either Gehenna (Jewish Purgatory) or Catholic Purgatory. I can also use a cleansing.

LOL! It is an interesting topic. I have read references to a purgatorial place in the book Every Mans Talmud I believe, and also the writings of Josephus. Which continued on in Catholicism. Also I have found references In the Jewish writings to prayers for the dead, outside of the book of Maccabees. After getting cleansed, I will join you in a glass of New wine, in the world to come!

 

[davidv]

Is not preventing someone from Attempting to save their own life, also gravely Immoral? If it was your wife. would you see her getting a life saving procedure such as this, gravely Immoral? Can you honestly tell me Dave, that you would let your wife die?

Could cite a legitimate source that calls pregnancy a disease? My understanding of biology indicates that pregnancy is a ordered function of the female reproductive system. It is not a pathology to be eliminated. Again, abortion is a life-taking procedure. It is not life saving.

The complicity of a second party is not the current question and its morality must be evaluated separately.

Why the scare tactics, with bringing my wife into the conversation?

 

[davidv]

Killing a Child on the battle field, outside the womb, or any non combatant, could be seen as the same. Are you saying that the death of a Child in this circumstance is always murder? despite the fact the soldier did every thing in his power to prevent it? I would propose the ptsd this triggers, is the same for a soldier, as for a woman, that has had this procedure. They both deserve your compassion. Not your condemnation.

Seems to me you are comparing apples and oranges. If the innocent, non-combatants were the targets for killing, it would be murder, just like abortion.

Why the false accusation of condemnation? Where have I condemned anyone?

 

[davidv]

And not every abortion is murder.

Wrong. The child is always innocent and defenseless.

 

[CollegeStinks]

I know that a lot has been said since my last post, and I don’t really have the time to read everything since my last post. But I read something in the middle where you said that killing is always immoral. That’s not true. Read the Catechism Council of Trent about Thou Shall Not Kill. The act of killing itself is not objectively immoral. There are many exceptions to this. Killing in a just war is an exception. Abortion is not. If you actually read the Catechism Council of Trent about Commandment 5 and still do not get this, then you certainly have a misunderstanding and some sort of inconsistency in your reasoning.

 

[Corki]

And not every abortion is murder.

Every **procured **abortion is murder. Spontaneous abortions, also referred to as miscarriages are not murder.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

please clarify. Its a yes or no question. Would you as the responsible parent who has to make the descison, allow your daughter to Die?

When I say that no parent in their right mind would allow their child to have an abortion, then yes, I am implying that I would be in my right mind. Thus, of course, I would not allow my daughter to have an abortion. If there is something which is licit that can be done to safeguard her health, then of course that should be done. But I am not so naive as to think that anything is worth committing a sin, especially something so grave and wicked as abortion.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Interesting. And what does the Cathecism state? I know it states for grave crimes, but it does not specify does it?

That is up to the State. The State is a perfect society, it has the right to define law as long as that law is just. It does so (or, rather, should do so) in order to safeguard the common good. Some governments may decide that capital punishment is never needed, that life in prison without the possibility of parole sufficiently safeguards the common good, others may have more strict rules. That is up to the prudence of the State as long as justice is observed.

 

[Brendan]

Is not preventing someone from Attempting to save their own life, also gravely Immoral? If it was your wife. would you see her getting a life saving procedure such as this, gravely Immoral? Can you honestly tell me Dave, that you would let your wife die?

I have a question for you then.

Suppose my wife needed a heart transplant. Without it she would die. If I found a living donor (an innocent bystander).

Could I morally kill that person so I could use that person’s heart for my wife’s transplant?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

In addition, the death penalty in Torah Judaism is thought to be the first step toward ATONEMENT on the part of the criminal so that their penalty in Gehenna (the Jewish approximation of Catholic Purgatory) by G-d is not so severe.
In other words, the death penalty–in addition to helping the victim and society–also helps the criminal.

This is also true in Catholic moral theology. Just capital punishment is an act of charity also to the condemned because it allows them to accept their sufferings and death as just punishment for their crime. Done perfectly, it eliminates any need for Purgatory and they go straight to Heaven.

It is even an act of charity for the unrepentant because they are no longer able to commit more sins and thus increase their punishments in Hell.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I have a question for you then.

Suppose my wife needed a heart transplant. Without it she would die. If I found a living donor (an innocent bystander).

Could I morally kill that person so I could use that person’s heart for my wife’s transplant?

I think the pro-aborts here would say that they didn’t intend to kill the innocent person – they just took their heart out!

 

[cathoichelp]

I have a question for you then.

Suppose my wife needed a heart transplant. Without it she would die. If I found a living donor (an innocent bystander).

Could I morally kill that person so I could use that person’s heart for my wife’s transplant?

what on earth does that have to do with anything?
Will the innocent bystander also die if your wife doesn’t have a heart transplant? Cuz if not this has nothing to do with anything

 

[cathoichelp]

This is also true in Catholic moral theology. Just capital punishment is an act of charity also to the condemned because it allows them to accept their sufferings and death as just punishment for their crime. Done perfectly, it eliminates any need for Purgatory and they go straight to Heaven.

It is even an act of charity for the unrepentant because they are no longer able to commit more sins and thus increase their punishments in Hell.

Isn’t that sweet they can go straight to heaven …

 

[cathoichelp]

Could cite a legitimate source that calls pregnancy a disease? My understanding of biology indicates that pregnancy is a ordered function of the female reproductive system. It is not a pathology to be eliminated. Again, abortion is a life-taking procedure. It is not life saving.

The complicity of a second party is not the current question and its morality must be evaluated separately.

Why the scare tactics, with bringing my wife into the conversation?

Pregnancy itself is a not a disease -
But there are diseases that are brought on by pregnancy … (gestational diseases) - so the catalyst is pregnancy and the cure is not being pregnant-
preeclampsia
diabetes
hypertension
ect …

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Thank you for this information. I was not at all aware of it; I had thought Catholicism was totally against the death penalty. Are you sure the crime of rape is to be included in the list?

It is a grave crime, there is no reason it could not be capital.

Pope John Paul II said that it is possible to consider that in this day and age capital punishment is no longer necessary in most societies to protect the common good. But certainly, Catholic moral theology is not opposed to the death penalty in principle. This is a decision to be made by the State as to whether the society is best served by the option of the death penalty or not.

In extreme cases, certainly, it would seem much more fitting to have the death penalty. Pol Pot, who was responsible for the death of millions of people died of old age under house arrest. I think only the most bleeding-heart liberal would object to a particularly public and brutal execution for such a man.

[T]
here is evidence of a growing public opposition to the death penalty, even when such a penalty is seen as a kind of “legitimate defence” on the part of society. Modern society in fact has the means of effectively suppressing crime by rendering criminals harmless without definitively denying them the chance to reform.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Isn’t that sweet they can go straight to heaven …

Why does that shock you? What do you think Purgatory is for?

 

[cathoichelp]

I loved Pope John Paul II <3 what an incredibly kind man

It shocks me because this entire thread has seemed so harsh and cold towards a woman who was in the worst possible situation having to loss a child to save her own life - or die leaving her other children motherless… and still the life of that unborn child is lost -
how many times has this person been called a murderer -
and then we go to charity and if we put someone to death who is a danger to society the :“right” way we can send them straight to heaven…

 

[faithfully]

Is an unjust war with lots of casualties worse than abortion?

Every single murder is wrong. Heart breaking. Have you ever been to the site of the Oklahoma bombing. There is a beautiful statue of Christ across the street. His back is to the site. The only words… “And Jesus Wept…” We are all God’s chidren. I suspect the most wise among us is still an “infant” in Christ’s eyes. There is so much we don’t know,understand…

Abortion: it’s so much easier to control. We’re talking one woman, one doctor, a few assistants. It’s so unnecessary, It’s a fear based problem

War: War just sucks. It’s on a bigger scale. How do you decide it’s unjust? If there were a country killing all unborn babies, and we sent in the military to stop it… would the war be unjust? What if every person in the country thought it was fine, and had no moral issue with it. We’d trade lives for lives??? What if the exact swap was equal?

I look at Iraq. I don’t even know anymore what I think about it. Iraq stole a very dear friend. I have a hard time forgiving war. I have friends that came back. War stole a part of their spirit, it changed them. I can’t decide if in a good or bad way. I pray for them. And I think to myself, there is no longer a man there that abuses a soccer team for losing. (among a million other. more awful things)… I worry that I don’t care that he lost his life. I’m sure God thought it was precious. I’m so human, it’s painful! Yet, I’ve learned lessons. I have much more to learn.

I pray for soldiers I don’t even know. Men and women who could really be jerks at heart… the idea that children, and spouses are left behind… It’s gut wrenching for a friend. I can’t imagine my husband not coming home from work for the danger at work. But I pray. I would like war to end as much as I would like abortion to end.

Yes, UTOPIA is where I’d like to live on earth!

 

[davidv]

Pregnancy itself is a not a disease -
But there are diseases that are brought on by pregnancy … (gestational diseases) - so the catalyst is pregnancy and the cure is not being pregnant-
preeclampsia
diabetes
hypertension
ect …

Then one treats those diseases. The pregnacy is not the problem.
This is just irrational justification of sin.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I loved Pope John Paul II <3 what an incredibly kind man

It shocks me because this entire thread has seemed so harsh and cold towards a woman who was in the worst possible situation having to loss a child to save her own life - or die leaving her other children motherless… and still the life of that unborn child is lost -
how many times has this person been called a murderer -
and then we go to charity and if we put someone to death who is a danger to society the :“right” way we can send them straight to heaven…

Would you not want a person to go straight to Heaven?

Even someone who has committed abortion still be saved and go straight to Heaven, they just have to confess their sin, have their excommunication lifted, and do penance. The temporal punishment for abortion is infinite because the value of the child’s life is infinite, but God will commute that infinite temporal punishment to some finite amount.

Certainly I can be compassionate towards someone who has committed such a serious crime as abortion but the first step is honesty.