Unjust war vs abortion

[benidict]

The 23.7% in the study quoted is the percentage of abortions for the unaffiliated group compared to the total number of abortions, not the percentage of adults who are unaffiliated. There is no inconsistency; in fact, given their rather low percentage of the total population, they have a comparatively high percentage of abortions.

I find it fascinating, that women, in a religion that is more pro choice in its view, are having far far fewer abortions, than women from a religion that has a completely pro life view. Why is this I wonder? There have also been some interesting remarks from the pope reguarding condom use, in preventing the spread of A.I.D.S. in the last couple months. Its because even the pope knows that these save lives in this situation. Maybe just maybe, we have a Pope, that has the Guts to change some things that need changing. Such as the view that under no circumstances is an abortion allowed, even if we must sacrifice our Mothers, our daughters ,our sisters, etc. This is a barbaric and Cold view that makes a woman, not a person but an incubator. And if the incubator breaks down, and stops working? Oh well, at least shes in heaven. We dont care. :coffeeread:

 

[Lapey]

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

I was responding to another poster who was trying use the distribution of abortions among those professing a religion to argue a point. I was pointing out the error in the way the data was presented as an excuse to limit the teaching against abortion. Essentially they were resorting to misrepresentation to make their case.

Thanks David for clearing that up for me. I am sorry I comented without fully understanding your point.

 

[benidict]

Then they die as saints!

St. Gianna Beretta Molla is a Roman Catholic Saint, canonized on May 16th, 2004 by his Holiness Pope John Paul II. Gianna was an Italian physician, a wife and a loving mother. She is best known for refusing both an abortion and a hysterectomy when she was pregnant with her fourth child, despite knowing that continuing with the pregnancy could result in her death.The canonization of Saint Gianna is the first of its kind. Many mothers have been beatified for their heroic virtues but they entered religious life after becoming widowed. In St Gianna’s case, she was a spouse and mother when she died. St. Gianna is the first canonized woman physician and professional who was also a “working mom”. St. Gianna is a patron saint for mothers, physicians, and unborn children.

I am sure this would be a great comfort to children who face life in orphanage if their Mother is an only parent…How kind. Completely hypothetical, I will confess. But it could theoretically happen.

 

[davidv]

I find it fascinating, that women, in a religion that is more pro choice in its view, are having far far fewer abortions, than women from a religion that has a completely pro life view. Why is this I wonder? There have also been some interesting remarks from the pope reguarding condom use, in preventing the spread of A.I.D.S. in the last couple months. Its because even the pope knows that these save lives in this situation. Maybe just maybe, we have a Pope, that has the Guts to change some things that need changing. Such as the view that under no circumstances is an abortion allowed, even if we must sacrifice our Mothers, our daughters ,our sisters, etc. This is a barbaric and Cold view that makes a woman, not a person but an incubator. And if the incubator breaks down, and stops working? Oh well, at least shes in heaven. We dont care. :coffeeread:

You would not be so fascinated if you really understood the data you presented. It doesn’t support your claim unless you misrepresent it.

Your comment on the Pope and condom use is also a misrepresentation and another red herring relative to the OP.

Instead of emotionalism (“barbaric”, “cold”), maybe you could present a rational argument for your postion?

 

[Lapey]

I am sure this would be a great comfort to children who face life in orphanage if their Mother is an only parent…How kind. You can shrug all you want to make it sound like I am mean or I don’t understand the situations people find themselves in, but the Church teaches truth. I am a deacon in that Church, I am required to teach truth. That is what I do, I do not condem I teach truth as directed by the Latin Rite Church.Completely hypothetical, I will confess. But it could theoretically happen.

Are you really saying that St. Gianna was acting carelessly by her decision? It is possible to hypothetical yourself into irrational thinking and decision making too. Try to think as God would have you think, not society. Abortion is always wrong, that is the center thinking position. A left leaning person would think, well its okay in these situations. A right leaning person may think what the killer of an abortion Dr. would think.

The Church teaches that the center belief is correct, abortion is intrinsically evil, and there isn’t an occasion where it is an acceptable option. Hypothetically you can change that, but you will still be on the wrong side of the argument.

 

[Lapey]

I find it fascinating, that women, in a religion that is more pro choice in its view, are having far far fewer abortions, than women from a religion that has a completely pro life view. Why is this I wonder? There have also been some interesting remarks from the pope reguarding condom use, in preventing the spread of A.I.D.S. in the last couple months. Its because even the pope knows that these save lives in this situation. Maybe just maybe, we have a Pope, that has the Guts to change some things that need changing. Such as the view that under no circumstances is an abortion allowed, even if we must sacrifice our Mothers, our daughters ,our sisters, etc. This is a barbaric and Cold view that makes a woman, not a person but an incubator. And if the incubator breaks down, and stops working? Oh well, at least shes in heaven. We dont care. :coffeeread:

What exactly did Jesus mean when he said to store up treasures in heaven? What does it mean when He said that one who gives his life for the sake of the Gospel saves his life for eternity? What’s important? How is leading people astray from truth charitable? On the other hand, how is teaching the truth uncharitable? Is the goal to live with Him forever in Heaven? Or to do what we feel is our right in this life?

I tend to believe that what the Church teaches is more important than what you teach. How is protecting the unborn from their parents barbaric, and forces women to lose their dignity and become incubators? This is a sick view of reality, and propaganda of the ultra left.

You have no clue what the dignity of woman is or means if you believe forcing a woman not to kill her unborn baby is barbaric. The Word became Flesh through woman. Thank God Mary was pro-life!

You claim to be Catholic, but you make a statement like, “the Pope understands and will change to allow abortions in some cases.” Wow, you wait for that one. If that were to happen, that would prove that the Church has lost its way and the gates of the netherworld has prevailed against it. I believe that Jesus promised the opposite.

 

[benidict]

And there it is!!! Hey Cathoichelp? Am I ultra left? meltzerboy? Anyone from the left who knows me?

 

[Lapey]

And there it is!!! Hey Cathoichelp? Am I ultra left? meltzerboy? Anyone from the left who knows me?

If you believe that abortion is acceptable in some cases, then compared to the Church’s teaching, you are a lefty. Sorry to point that out to you, but you cannot change truth. Do you consider me ultra right because I speak up for all life, both before and after birth?

We can get ourselves all worked up sometimes because our earthly views are challenged, what matters is what God thinks about it. This is where the Church comes in to give us this side, God’s side. If you find yourself in contrary belief to the Church, then you are likewise contrary to God’s will.

The Eucharist is always the Eucharist even though most Catholics do not take literally the teaching of the Real Presence.

Abortion is always killing a living being no matter what category you put the “choice” in. Intrinsic evil is always wrong and contrary to God’s will. You cannot argue with me about that, it’s not our argument; it belongs solely to the Church. We have to form our conscience in order of Church teaching, or we are in error, not the Church.

If you feel better by blaming me for what is told to you here, I’m good with that. Just let it be known, your belief is in error and in need of change, not Church teachings.

 

[benidict]

“the Pope understands and will change to allow abortions in some cases.”
Wow! talk about a mis quote. Where did I say the Pope was GOING to allow abortions in some cases. You totally misunderstood my post, and what I was driving at. Were you aware that this pope has finally fully exhonorated the Jews in the death of Jesus also? Church teaching does not change? Pleaaase! uch: God bless our Pope, And continue to guide Him.

 

[Lapey]

I find it fascinating, that women, in a religion that is more pro choice in its view, are having far far fewer abortions, than women from a religion that has a completely pro life view. Why is this I wonder? There have also been some interesting remarks from the pope reguarding condom use, in preventing the spread of A.I.D.S. in the last couple months. Its because even the pope knows that these save lives in this situation. Maybe just maybe, we have a Pope, that has the Guts to change some things that need changing. Such as the view that under no circumstances is an abortion allowed, even if we must sacrifice our Mothers, our daughters ,our sisters, etc. This is a barbaric and Cold view that makes a woman, not a person but an incubator. And if the incubator breaks down, and stops working? Oh well, at least shes in heaven. We dont care. :coffeeread:

So you speak for the Pope, but I misunderstood what you meant here??? These are your words aren’t they?

Okay, what exactly are you saying here? It appears quite simple to me, you say Pope has the guts to change Church teachings, that would be heresy my sister.

 

[davidv]

“the Pope understands and will change to allow abortions in some cases.”
Wow! talk about a mis quote. Where did I say the Pope was GOING to allow abortions in some cases. You totally misunderstood my post, and what I was driving at. Were you aware that this pope has finally fully exhonorated the Jews in the death of Jesus also? Church teaching does not change? Pleaaase! uch: God bless our Pope, And continue to guide Him.

Why do you misrepresent Catholism? Are you aware of the difference between doctrine and discipline in the Church?

 

[cathoichelp]

Those having abortions are a sample of the whole population, therefore the proportions unaffiliated having abortions can be compared directly to the proportion of unaffiliated in the whole population.

Be that as it may, it is not really relevant to the OP.

No, those stats are of the total number of people who had abortions not the total number of people (in general population ) who are associated with a religion
so if 100 people had abortions ___ % of them were ___

 

[benidict]

VATICAN CITY – Pope Benedict XVI says in a new book that the use of condoms can be justified in some cases, such as for male prostitutes seeking to prevent the spread of HIV.

The pontiff makes the comments in a book-length interview with a German journalist, “Light of the World: The Pope, the Church and the Signs of the Times.” The Vatican newspaper ran excerpts of the book Saturday

foxnews.com/world/2010/11/20/pope-condom-use-justified-cases/

I dont speak for the Pope, and never claimed to. He can speak very well for himself, thank you.
Here is a snippet. feel free to read the whole article. While not endorsing contraception, He did state it was JUSTIFIED in SOME CASES. I was simply saying that the argument for abortion to save the life of the mother Could very well be allowed at some point in the future. Given his views on this, I would say he has more compassion than some of us on this issue. And yes, I do know the difference between a Discipline such as celebacy of priest, and Doctrine, such as the immaculate conception, and the Trinity. If im mistaken on either of these, I would invite you to look at my post ive started on these subjects, and The defenses I have raised on behalf of the Blessed Mother. Its all a matter of record. Just go to my page and research all my threads and post on this forum. I happen to disagree with you on this particular issue. And a few others.

 

[davidv]

No, those stats are of the total number of people who had abortions not the total number of people (in general population ) who are associated with a religion
so if 100 people had abortions ___ % of them were ___

So what? How does this help understand the immorality of abortion and other war crimes?

 

[davidv]

VATICAN CITY – Pope Benedict XVI says in a new book that the use of condoms can be justified in some cases, such as for male prostitutes seeking to prevent the spread of HIV.

This is a baseless misrepresentation of what the Pope actually said. It also not gemaine to the topic of this thread.
{snip}

 

[benidict]

This is a baseless misrepresentation of what the Pope actually said. It also not gemaine to the topic of this thread.
{snip}

Then blame fox news. It was also in stars and stripes by the way. It is germain. It goes to the heart of the matter that Church teaching does and can change. And that maybe, just maybe, there are SOME cases where ABORTION can be justified. If it can happen with condoms, then…

 

[meltzerboy]

And there it is!!! Hey Cathoichelp? Am I ultra left? meltzerboy? Anyone from the left who knows me?

If you’re left or ultra-left, Benidict, then I shudder to think what Lapey would call me! From where I sit, your views on this issue are those of a rational, centrist Catholic of faith and those of Lapey are those of a traditional, conservative Catholic of faith. As far as I can tell, your ONLY exception on the abortion issue involves a mother who will die if she cannot terminate her pregnancy and an unborn child who will also die. I don’t really know what your thinking is with regard to incest and rape victims. It’s probable, though, you don’t believe in abortion on demand due to socioeconomic issues, and neither do I, frankly. I recognize too that the Church’s position is NOT accepted by every faith and that’s why I’m pro-choice (not pro-abortion), but with limitations. I don’t wish to speak for you, but I would say that most likely my position is more to the left than yours. Relevant to this discussion, within those of my own faith, there are Jews who practice Torah Judaism who constitute a part of Orthodoxy called Haredi Orthodox (or ultra-Orthodox, which is more a pejorative term). They find Modern Orthodox, even Traditional and certain forms of Hasidic Orthodox too “liberal” in their thinking. In fact, they would not even be having this or any other conversation on the Internet, especially on a Catholic Forum! I have to work hard to respect some of their views about Judaism and Israel, given the fact they consider Reform Judaism (as well as Conservative Judaism) not really Judaism at all. I mention this only to point out that sometimes there is no use in discussing certain issues with those who are not open to any discussion. One just has to agree to disagree with as much charity and respect for the other party as possible.

 

[benidict]

Benedict said that for male prostitutes – for whom contraception isn’t a central issue – condoms are not a moral solution. But he said they could be justified “in the intention of reducing the risk of infection.”
This from the same article. He is not saying it is a moral solution, but could be JUSTIFIED in the INTENTION of reducing the risk of infection. I am simply stating this argument could also be used by those of us interested in saving the LIFE of the mother.

 

[meltzerboy]

So what? How does this help understand the immorality of abortion and other war crimes?

I pointed out the same fact before. Maybe it doesn’t help understand the immorality of abortion, but you have more than once used these statistics to state that your “opponents” are intentionally misrepresenting the facts. As I said earlier, it is not a misrepresentation. Your use of the word “other” war crimes, I think is quite extreme, and surely not centrist, thinking.

 

[benidict]

If you’re left or ultra-left, Benidict, then I shudder to think what Lapey would call me! From where I sit, your views on this issue are those of a rational, centrist Catholic of faith and those of Lapey are those of a traditional, conservative Catholic of faith. As far as I can tell, your ONLY exception on the abortion issue involves a mother who will die if she cannot terminate her pregnancy and an unborn child who will also die. I don’t really know what your thinking is with regard to incest and rape victims. It’s probable, though, you don’t believe in abortion on demand due to socioeconomic issues, and neither do I, frankly. I recognize too that the Church’s position is NOT accepted by every faith and that’s why I’m pro-choice (not pro-abortion), but with limitations. I don’t wish to speak for you, but I would say that most likely my position is more to the left than yours. Relevant to this discussion, within those of my own faith, there are Jews who practice Torah Judaism who constitute a part of Orthodoxy called Haredi Orthodox (or ultra-Orthodox, which is more a pejorative term). They find Modern Orthodox, even Traditional and certain forms of Hasidic Orthodox too “liberal” in their thinking. In fact, they would not even be having this or any other conversation on the Internet, especially on a Catholic Forum! I have to work hard to respect some of their views about Judaism and Israel, given the fact they consider Reform Judaism (as well as Conservative Judaism) not really Judaism at all. I mention this only to point out that sometimes there is no use in discussing certain issues with those who are not open to any discussion. One just has to agree to disagree with as much charity and respect for the other party as possible.

Thank you my brother. You hit the nail on the head with my position on this. This is one only 2 cases where I believe a Woman should have a choice. Rape is another one. Incest, if it was rape would fall under this catagory, If the incest was consensual, then no, I do not think abortion should be allowed. After all, I dont think there is enough evidence to prove that children of such union are going to be affected negeatively physically or mentally. However, if the union was mutual, then the child should be put up for adoption. Incest is and should be against the law. A rape victim, on the other hand, should have this option. It was not her choice to partake in a the act that led to her pregnancy. If she wishes to adopt the baby out or keep the child. then Awesome. I applaud her choice. but I would never see forcing a woman fulfilling a pregnancy that was a result of an act of violence. I thank you for your kind words. I also changed my profile to reflect my Libertarian Ideology. Just to clear up any mis conceptions. Peace and blessings for you and yours.