Unjust war vs abortion

[meltzerboy]

Benedict said that for male prostitutes – for whom contraception isn’t a central issue – condoms are not a moral solution. But he said they could be justified “in the intention of reducing the risk of infection.”
This from the same article. He is not saying it is a moral solution, but could be JUSTIFIED in the INTENTION of reducing the risk of infection. I am simply stating this argument could also be used by those of us interested in saving the LIFE of the mother.

I suppose since the Catholic viewpoint is that life begins at conception, the Pope’s statement, if put into effect, would be quite a significant change for the Church and perhaps in his own thinking. The fact he even brought up the issue of male prostitutes I find in itself very surprising.

 

[Lapey]

If you’re left or ultra-left, Benidict, then I shudder to think what Lapey would call me! From where I sit, your views on this issue are those of a rational, centrist Catholic of faith and those of Lapey are those of a traditional, conservative Catholic of faith. As far as I can tell, your ONLY exception on the abortion issue involves a mother who will die if she cannot terminate her pregnancy and an unborn child who will also die. I don’t really know what your thinking is with regard to incest and rape victims. It’s probable, though, you don’t believe in abortion on demand due to socioeconomic issues, and neither do I, frankly. I recognize too that the Church’s position is NOT accepted by every faith and that’s why I’m pro-choice (not pro-abortion), but with limitations. I don’t wish to speak for you, but I would say that most likely my position is more to the left than yours. Relevant to this discussion, within those of my own faith, there are Jews who practice Torah Judaism who constitute a part of Orthodoxy called Haredi Orthodox (or ultra-Orthodox, which is more a pejorative term). They find Modern Orthodox, even Traditional and certain forms of Hasidic Orthodox too “liberal” in their thinking. In fact, they would not even be having this or any other conversation on the Internet, especially on a Catholic Forum! I have to work hard to respect some of their views about Judaism and Israel, given the fact they consider Reform Judaism (as well as Conservative Judaism) not really Judaism at all. I mention this only to point out that sometimes there is no use in discussing certain issues with those who are not open to any discussion. One just has to agree to disagree with as much charity and respect for the other party as possible.

Sorry meltzerboy, the Church descides what is left, center or right. She says that abortion is left, no abortion is center, and violence against abortionist ir right. Any abortion allowed would put that belief in the laft wing category. Again, intrinsic evil, look it up. There is no option for a morally acceptible abortion. The views here are the views of a rationalizing Catholic (big difference) who lacks knowledge of true Church teachings, or just flat out disagrees with the teachings.

Charity in discussion is in fact required, but please define charity in God’s terms. Is it charitable to point of grave error, or to endorse it for the sake of a person’s feelings. I choose the first, and so did God when He told Ezikel that if he does not point out the sin of his brother, he shall surely die for his brother’s sin.

 

[Lapey]

Thank you my brother. You hit the nail on the head with my position on this. This is one only 2 cases where I believe a Woman should have a choice. Rape is another one. Incest, if it was rape would fall under this catagory, If the incest was consensual, then no, I do not think abortion should be allowed. After all, I dont think there is enough evidence to prove that children of such union are going to be affected negeatively physically or mentally. However, if the union was mutual, then the child should be put up for adoption. Incest is and should be against the law. A rape victim, on the other hand, should have this option. It was not her choice to partake in a the act that led to her pregnancy. If she wishes to adopt the baby out or keep the child. then Awesome. I applaud her choice. but I would never see forcing a woman fulfilling a pregnancy that was a result of an act of violence. I thank you for your kind words. I also changed my profile to reflect my Libertarian Ideology. Just to clear up any mis conceptions. Peace and blessings for you and yours.

Did the unborn baby have a choice in the conception? Who speaks for these children’s God given rights to live? I hope not you. Adoption, try it, it saves babies who some would rip apart and throw away. I have a 16 almost 17 year old adopted daughter who I thank God for daily that her mother did not choose abortion, even though she may fit into one of your acceptable categories to end her beautiful life.

How dare you think you can talk with such moral certitude that these are any human’s choice and not God’s and God alone? Who are you to make that descision?

Let me ask you, if I figure out 3 years after my wife gave birth to our youngest child that she was in fact raped by her uncle and conceived what I though was OUR child, but she was afraid to speak up until now; can I kill him now? He was conceived by rape and incest; it must be okay because had we known a couple of months before he was born we could have made that choice, what’s different?

 

[benidict]

Sorry meltzerboy, the Church descides what is left, center or right. She says that abortion is left, no abortion is center, and violence against abortionist ir right. Any abortion allowed would put that belief in the laft wing category. Again, intrinsic evil, look it up. There is no option for a morally acceptible abortion. The views here are the views of a rationalizing Catholic (big difference) who lacks knowledge of true Church teachings, or just flat out disagrees with the teachings.
Charity in discussion is in fact required, but please define charity in God’s terms. Is it charitable to point of grave error, or to endorse it for the sake of a person’s feelings. I choose the first, and so did God when He told Ezikel that if he does not point out the sin of his brother, he shall surely die for his brother’s sin.

Really? Research my work on behalf of the Church with other very serious issues, such as the Trinity, The Eucarist, the Marian Dogmas, Faith and Works, and any number of issues that pertain to the faith. Then come back here and tell me Im a rationalizing Catholic, or left wing. I challenge you to do this.

 

[davidv]

Then blame fox news. It was also in stars and stripes by the way. It is germain. It goes to the heart of the matter that Church teaching does and can change. And that maybe, just maybe, there are SOME cases where ABORTION can be justified. If it can happen with condoms, then…

I don’t need to blame anyone. You need to quote what the Pope actually said, and not what fox news reported he said.

Since the article in misleading at best, it cannot impugn that constancy of Church teaching and as such, it is in fact irrelevant.

You conclusion is unsound as it is based on a faulty premise.

 

[benidict]

Did the unborn baby have a choice in the conception? Who speaks for these children’s God given rights to live? I hope not you. Adoption, try it, it saves babies who some would rip apart and throw away. I have a 16 almost 17 year old adopted daughter who I thank God for daily that her mother did not choose abortion, even though she may fit into one of your acceptable categories to end her beautiful life.

How dare you think you can talk with such moral certitude that these are any human’s choice and not God’s and God alone? Who are you to make that descision?

Let me ask you, if I figure out 3 years after my wife gave birth to our youngest child that she was in fact raped by her uncle and conceived what I though was OUR child, but she was afraid to speak up until now; can I kill him now? He was conceived by rape and incest; it must be okay because had we known a couple of months before he was born we could have made that choice, what’s different?

First of all, let me offer my sincere sympathy for you and your wife. Second of all, let me applaud her decision to have the child, and you for being willing to raise him as your own. I will not even debate this with you, for fear of reopening healing wounds. I could ask some questions, but in the interest of not harming you, I will not. I am not a total monster. All I can do Is applaud your descision, and offer my prayers for you, your wife and your child.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Then blame fox news. It was also in stars and stripes by the way. It is germain. It goes to the heart of the matter that Church teaching does and can change. And that maybe, just maybe, there are SOME cases where ABORTION can be justified. If it can happen with condoms, then…

No, with respect, you are quite in error here. Please check the National Catholic Register, EWTN, Catholic News Service, the blogs of Father Z, Jimmy Akin, The Curt Jester, et. al, to see what the Pope actually said (as opposed to opinions of Fox News and also CNN, etc. tried to make it APPEAR he said).

No the teaching on condoms has NOT changed. It is not moral in ONE situation or for ONE group and not for another.

 

[benidict]

I don’t need to blame anyone. You need to quote what the Pope actually said, and not what fox news reported he said.

Since the article in misleading at best, it cannot impugn that constancy of Church teaching and as such, it is in fact irrelevant.

You conclusion is unsound as it is based on a faulty premise.

Funny dave. Fox news is pretty far right. which is one reason I like them.

 

[Lapey]

Really? Research my work on behalf of the Church with other very serious issues, such as the Trinity, The Eucarist, the Marian Dogmas, Faith and Works, and any number of issues that pertain to the faith. Then come back here and tell me Im a rationalizing Catholic, or left wing. I challenge you to do this.

I don’t have to…your words do it for me. If you claim you are true to Church teachings, then why the descent in the issue of abortion?

PS. The Church does not change it’s mind on dogma and what is or is not a sin. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

 

[benidict]

No, with respect, you are quite in error here. Please check the National Catholic Register, EWTN, Catholic News Service, the blogs of Father Z, Jimmy Akin, The Curt Jester, et. al, to see what the Pope actually said (as opposed to opinions of Fox News and also CNN, etc. tried to make it APPEAR he said).

No the teaching on condoms has NOT changed. It is not moral in ONE situation or for ONE group and not for another.

And I shall research these. Thank you my friend for the info.

 

[benidict]

I don’t have to…your words do it for me. If you claim you are true to Church teachings, then why the descent in the issue of abortion?
PS. The Church does not change it’s mind on dogma and what is or is not a sin. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Probably because I have a brain, and I can think? And I can reason.

 

[Lapey]

First of all, let me offer my sincere sympathy for you and your wife. Second of all, let me applaud her decision to have the child, and you for being willing to raise him as your own. I will not even debate this with you, for fear of reopening healing wounds. I could ask some questions, but in the interest of not harming you, I will not. I am not a total monster. All I can do Is applaud your descision, and offer my prayers for you, your wife and your child.

The reference to my youngest son is totally hypothetical, so please repond. I am sorry if my comments led you to a different understanding. However my adopted daughter, no blood relation to me or my wife, can be put into categories some would attempt to justify abortion, I thank God for her mother’s descision not to abort her. The world would be less bearable without her, as it is without the millions being aborted since we have devalued life.

 

[Lapey]

No, with respect, you are quite in error here. Please check the National Catholic Register, EWTN, Catholic News Service, the blogs of Father Z, Jimmy Akin, The Curt Jester, et. al, to see what the Pope actually said (as opposed to opinions of Fox News and also CNN, etc. tried to make it APPEAR he said).

No the teaching on condoms has NOT changed. It is not moral in ONE situation or for ONE group and not for another.

Thanks for this post:thumbsup:

 

[Lapey]

Probably because I have a brain, and I can think? And I can reason.

So if you brain and your ability to reason takes you away from the teaching of God and His Church, you’re okay with this?

 

[benidict]

The reference to my youngest son is totally hypothetical, so please repond. I am sorry if my comments led you to a different understanding. However my adopted daughter, no blood relation to me or my wife, can be put into categories some would attempt to justify abortion, I thank God for her mother’s descision not to abort her. The world would be less bearable without her, as it is without the millions being aborted since we have devalued life.

And read my criteria. I also thank God she was not aborted. I applaud any mother, who has suffered this act of violence, who chooses life. However, I will also not compound her trauma by labeling her a killer, if she chooses the opposite. A woman who has to make this descision deserves our compassion. not our condemnation. Peace

 

[benidict]

So if you brain and your ability to reason takes you away from the teaching of God and His Church, you’re okay with this?

On certain issues I have no choice. I cannot in good conscience lie, and state I agree with something I do not. I only disagree with the Church on 2 issues.1 social. 1 moral. Sorry, would you have me lie and state otherwise? would you have me say I agree with you 100% when I dont? What would you suggest, may I ask? Peace

 

[Lapey]

On certain issues I have no choice. I cannot in good conscience lie, and state I agree with something I do not. I only disagree with the Church on 2 issues.1 social. 1 moral. Sorry, would you have me lie and state otherwise? would you have me say I agree with you 100% when I dont? What would you suggest, may I ask? Peace

Seek out the truth of the Church’s stance and how and why your stance differs. Then you work on coming into obedience of God’s teaching arm, the Church.

I had this issue when I started formation about capital punishment; and these two issues, while both are life issues, are very different. However, I did research outside of my own conscience and knowledge to find why the Church’s stance of the death penalty is different than my own. I now understand why I must be obedient to the Church, because She is responsible for the salvation of my eternal soul. I can still choose otherwise, but I would be in error.

I used to be one who espoused the belief that it was not my right to speak against abortion, but I know now it is not my right, it is my duty. Not to condemn, but to inform and convert. Canon 1752 is supreme law, the salvation of souls. To complete our canon law class, we were given a test with 3 questions on it; the answer to all three was canon 1752. It was followed by a stern statement from the canon lawyer who taught the class, if you are not ready to pick up the sword and fight for the salvation of souls, then get out of the way you are not welcome in the clergy. I take that oath with great vigor.

Do I want you to lie? Hek no, I’d rather you figure out why your views differ, just as I did. Then work towards moving in line with Church doctrine and teaching. Or as Fr. Vic told us, get out of the way and don’t do any more harm by teaching false doctrine. Teach truth or teach nothing.

 

[benidict]

Seek out the truth of the Church’s stance and how and why your stance differs. Then you work on coming into obedience of God’s teaching arm, the Church.

I had this issue when I started formation about capital punishment; and these two issues, while both are life issues, are very different. However, I did research outside of my own conscience and knowledge to find why the Church’s stance of the death penalty is different than my own. I now understand why I must be obedient to the Church, because She is responsible for the salvation of my eternal soul. I can still choose otherwise, but I would be in error.

I used to be one who espoused the belief that it was not my right to speak against abortion, but I know now it is not my right, it is my duty. Not to condemn, but to inform and convert. Canon 1752 is supreme law, the salvation of souls. To complete our canon law class, we were given a test with 3 questions on it; the answer to all three was canon 1752. It was followed by a stern statement from the canon lawyer who taught the class, if you are not ready to pick up the sword and fight for the salvation of souls, then get out of the way you are not welcome in the clergy. I take that oath with great vigor.

Do I want you to lie? Hek no, I’d rather you figure out why your views differ, just as I did. Then work towards moving in line with Church doctrine and teaching. Or as Fr. Vic told us, get out of the way and don’t do any more harm by teaching false doctrine. Teach truth or teach nothing.

And this my friend is a fair request by you. And I shall do so. With all due respect to Father Vic. I do believe compassion should play a Huge part in our developement and thinking. Peace.

 

[davidv]

And this my friend is a fair request by you. And I shall do so. With all due respect to Father Vic. I do believe compassion should play a Huge part in our developement and thinking. Peace.

True compassion does not confirm one in their sin.

Edit: True love displayes the truth and invites the sinner to repentance.

 

[Brendan]

Thank you my brother. You hit the nail on the head with my position on this. This is one only 2 cases where I believe a Woman should have a choice. Rape is another one.:

So do you believe that ALL of the rapist’s children deserve Capital Punishment, or only the child that resulted from the rape?