Unless you eat my FLESH and drink my BLOOD you have no life in you.

[Romans828]

Nope. Even in our Liturgy of the Eucharist the priest say:

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.

All: Blessed be God for ever.

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.

All: Blessed be God for ever.

Even though the Presentation of the Gift, the word spiritual is used. Yet by no means this means symbolic because in the concretion when the lay the host above the alter and announced the words of consecration. It becomes Jesus.

Second, Augustine is a Catholic Bishop. Since the beginning of Catholicism, he knows well enough that it is not symbolic.

“He who has ears to hear…”

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi guys,

I just came across a piece of scripture I obviously have just overlooked before.

In John 16:25–33
**25"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father. **
26"In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

27for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.

28"I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father."

**29His disciples said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech. **
30"Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.”

31Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe?

32"Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me.

33"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

Im mainly focused on what I bolded. Isnt that piece of scripture Jesus saying that His teachings have been spoken in a figurative language? Which BTW includes John 6. If Jesus is telling us that his teachings have been spoken in a figurative language then I believe him Why wouldnt you?

No wonder all those people walked away–they really thought they had to eat and drink Jesus!!! They didnt get what He was saying because He was speaking figuratively and they thought He was speaking literally which would have disgusted Jews because that would be unclean by their laws.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Are there any practical benefits to eating Jesus? Does it reduce stress, improve health, make catholics more humane, increase intelligence, spark creativity, what? Or does it just make you feel good for 1 hour?

You will have eternal life. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:54

The fasting for one hour is in accordance to Code of Canon Law, which states;

Can. 919 §1. A person who is to receive the Most Holy Eucharist is to abstain for at least one hour before holy communion from any food and drink, except for only water and medicine.

IMO, the fasting is to put Jesus Christ first over anything else. Fasting is a form of obedience to God.

The benefit of Holy Communion is it strengthen our zeal to live the faith and give the strength to resist temptation to sin.

 

[Mannyfit75]

“He who has ears to hear…”

Your point is? I already posted Augustine’s commentary on John’s Gospel. There is no symbolic meaning in it. You just take St. Augustine, a Catholic bishop out of context.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hi guys,

I just came across a piece of scripture I obviously have just overlooked before.

In John 16:25–33
**25"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father. **
26"In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

27for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.

28"I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father."

**29His disciples said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech. **
30"Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.”

31Jesus answered them, "Do you now believe?

32"Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me.

33"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

Im mainly focused on what I bolded. Isnt that piece of scripture Jesus saying that His teachings have been spoken in a figurative language? Which BTW includes John 6. If Jesus is telling us that his teachings have been spoken in a figurative language then I believe him Why wouldnt you?

No wonder all those people walked away–they really thought they had to eat and drink Jesus!!! They didnt get what He was saying because He was speaking figuratively and they thought He was speaking literally which would have disgusted Jews because that would be unclean by their laws.

He wasn’t speaking figuratively ALLFORHIM. If you read the entire passage of John Chapter 16, it had nothing to do with eating Jesus.

Jesus here is speaking about that he is leaving his apostles because he is going to His Father.

Jesus said, “A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me.” (John 16:16). This passage is about his death and resurrection.

When Jesus dies, they disciple would not see him for a little while. They will see them again in his resurrection."

Later Jesus said in John 16:28 said, " 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am** leaving the world** and going to the Father."

 

[Mannyfit75]

Roman,

St. Augustine wrote this in his Tractate 27 (John 6:60-72)

1. All this that the Lord spoke concerning His flesh and blood;—and in the grace of that distribution He promised us eternal life, and that He meant those that eat His flesh and drink His blood to be understood, from the fact of their abiding in Him and He in them; and that they understood not who believed not; and that they were offended through their understanding spiritual things in a carnal sense; and that, while these were offended and perished, the Lord was present for the consolation of the disciples who remained, for proving whom He asked, “Will ye also go away?” that the reply of their steadfastness might be known to us, for He knew that they remained with Him;—let all this, then, avail us to this end, most beloved, that we eat not the flesh and blood of Christ merely in the sacrament, as many evil men do, but that we eat and drink to the participation of the Spirit, that we abide as members in the Lord’s body, to be quickened by His Spirit, and that we be not offended, even if many do now with us eat and drink the sacraments in a temporal manner, who shall in the end have eternal torments. For at present Christ’s body is as it were mixed on the threshing-floor: “But the Lord knows them that are His.” 2 Timothy 2:19 If you know what you thresh, that the substance is there hidden, that the threshing has not consumed what the winnowing has purged; certain are we, brethren, that all of us who are in the** Lord’s body**, and abide in Him, that He also may abide in us, have of necessity to live among evil men in this world even unto the end. I do not say among those evil men who blaspheme Christ; for there are now few found who blaspheme with the tongue, but many who do so by their life. Among those, then, we must necessarily live even unto the end.

newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm

He also wrote:

1. But that which they ask, while striving among themselves, namely, how the Lord can give His flesh to be eaten, they do not immediately hear: but further it is said to them,“Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you will have no life in you.” How, indeed, it may be eaten, and what may be the mode of eating this bread, you are ignorant of; nevertheless, “except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you will not have life in you.” He spoke these words, not certainly to corpses, but to living men. Whereupon, lest they, understanding it to mean this life, should strive about this thing also, He going on added,“Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life.” Wherefore, he that eats not this bread, nor drinks this blood, has not this life; for men can have temporal life without that, but they can noways have eternal life. He then that eats not His flesh, nor drinks His blood, has no life in him; and he that eats His flesh, and drinks His blood, has life. This epithet, eternal, which He used, answers to both. It is not so in the case of that food which we take for the purpose of sustaining this temporal life. For he who will not take it shall not live, nor yet shall he who will take it live. For very many, even who have taken it, die; it may be by old age, or by disease, or by some other casualty. But in this food and drink, that is, in the body and blood of the Lord, it is not so. For both he that does not take it has no life, and he that does take it has life, and that indeed eternal life. And thus He would have this meat and drink to be understood as meaning the fellowship of His own body and members, which is the holy Church in his predestinated, and called, and justified, and glorified saints and believers. Of these, the first is already effected, namely, predestination; the second and third, that is, the vocation and justification, have taken place, are taking place, and will take place; but the fourth, namely, the glorifying, is at present in hope; but a thing future in realization. The sacrament of this thing, namely, of the unity of the body and blood of Christ, is prepared on the Lord’s table in some places daily, in some places at certain intervals of days, and from the Lord’s table it is taken, by some to life, by some to destruction: but the thing itself, of which it is the sacrament, is for every man to life, for no man to destruction, whosoever shall have been a partaker thereof.

newadvent.org/fathers/1701026.htm

 

[Olivermax]

…

I think this is interesting. If it was to be a literal thing why would you do it in REMEMBRANCE of Christ. Why would he choose that word? He also says that the cup is the new testament IN Christ’s blood not that it IS Christ’s blood. I also find it interesting that he doesn’t say ‘eat Christ’s body and drink His blood’ but rather he refers to it as bread and cup.

You have to look at the original language sometime to figure out the meaning of the Bible. The Greek word for remembrance used here was a technical word, used only one other time in the New Testament, Hebrew 10:3, where the remembrance was carrying out a sacrifice. (Get it, the sacrifice of the Mass?) Both uses of the word was actually a sacrifice. Please see the brilliant book, Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic by David Currie.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

He wasn’t speaking figuratively ALLFORHIM. If you read the entire passage of John Chapter 16, it had nothing to do with eating Jesus.

Jesus here is speaking about that he is leaving his apostles because he is going to His Father.

Jesus said, “A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me.” (John 16:16). This passage is about his death and resurrection.

When Jesus dies, they disciple would not see him for a little while. They will see them again in his resurrection."

Later Jesus said in John 16:28 said, " 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world; again, I am** leaving the world** and going to the Father."

Yes but it seems His words were past tense—meaning all He had already taught them about, the vine, the bread of life, the sheep, etc. you get my point. Jesus clarified that although He was speaking figuratively in the past He is know going to speak clear about what is about to happen.

Anyone else(protestant) agree or not I just came across this so Im no theologian. It just seem to jump out at me.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes but it seems His words were past tense—meaning all He had already taught them about, the vine, the bread of life, the sheep, etc. you get my point. Jesus clarified that although He was speaking figuratively in the past He is know going to speak clear about what is about to happen.

Anyone else(protestant) agree or not I just came across this so Im no theologian. It just seem to jump out at me.

Past tense? Jesus did say, A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me."

When Jesus was speaking. He was speaking to His Apostles plainly. When he means now he means at the point of the discussion he have with them. Read the entire John 6:16.

There parts in this Gospel that point clearly the Resurrection and the Coming of the Holy Spirit.

Read the John 16:1-33. I could not post the entire Chapter because its rather too large.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Past tense? Jesus did say, A little while, and you will see me no more; again a little while, and you will see me."

When Jesus was speaking. He was speaking to His Apostles plainly. When he means now he means at the point of the discussion he have with them. Read the entire John 6:16.

There parts in this Gospel that point clearly the Resurrection and the Coming of the Holy Spirit.

Read the John 16:1-33. I could not post the entire Chapter because its rather too large.

Thank you Manny for trying to help me understand. I will read it again.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Thank you Manny for trying to help me understand. I will read it again.

Welcome.
Sure. I also recommend the Chapter before John 16 and the one after it.

Though, I think you should read the entire Gospel in John to see how all of it are connected.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Welcome.
Sure. I also recommend the Chapter before John 16 and the one after it.

Though, I think you should read the entire Gospel in John to see how all of it are connected.

Actually I already have studied it but it has been a few years I have to refresh myself.

 

[Romans828]

Welcome.
Sure. I also recommend the Chapter before John 16 and the one after it.

Though, I think you should read the entire Gospel in John to see how all of it are connected.

Hey Manny,

You do well in recommending the reading of John’s Gospel. His Gospel comes w/ it’s own purpose clause:

“These things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:27).

Similarly, in 1John, the Apostle writes,

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life” (1John 5:13).

According to John the Beloved, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you may know that you have eternal life.

Thanks.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hey Manny,

You do well in recommending the reading of John’s Gospel. His Gospel comes w/ it’s own purpose clause:

“These things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:27).

Similarly, in 1John, the Apostle writes,

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life” (1John 5:13).

According to John the Beloved, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you may know that you have eternal life.

Thanks.

AMEN!!!

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hey Manny,

You do well in recommending the reading of John’s Gospel. His Gospel comes w/ it’s own purpose clause:

“These things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name” (John 20:27).

Similarly, in 1John, the Apostle writes,

“These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life” (1John 5:13).

According to John the Beloved, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you may know that you have eternal life.

Thanks.

I already know that by reading the Bible, learning the teaching of the Catholic Church, whom Jesus Christ founded.

 

[Romans828]

I already know that by reading the Bible, learning the teaching of the Catholic Church, whom Jesus Christ founded.

Hey Manny,

You may already know that by reading the Bible, but the teaching of the Catholic Church anathematizes anyone holding such a belief.

The Council of Trent tells us, “If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, -unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema (Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Cannon 16)”. Assurance of salvation is a presumption upon God that we can infallibly judge the state of our souls.

Thanks

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hey Manny,

You may already know that by reading the Bible, but the teaching of the Catholic Church anathematizes anyone holding such a belief.

The Council of Trent tells us, “If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end, -unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema (Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Cannon 16)”. Assurance of salvation is a presumption upon God that we can infallibly judge the state of our souls.

Thanks

It anathematicize individuals who teaches heresy and schismatics. The Councl of Trent recognizes the erroneous doctrines of Protestantism. The Reformers themselves departed from the fullness of truth, my friend.

If the Church does not anathemizes heretics, you would be one of the following:

* Adoptionism
* Arianism
* Bogomils
* Docetism
* Nestorianism
* Manichaeism
* Monophysitism
* Monothelitism

All these have been condemned as Heresy and the anathematicize.

Besides it is very Bible.

Let me quote Scripture, this passage Jesus authorizes the entire 12 Apostle to bind and loose, and deal with the heathen by Church authority!

But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.- Matthew 18:15-20

If you look at the two large branches of Christianity, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Catholicism, they retain Apostolic Sucession. Their lineage can be traced to the Apostles themselves. Both also recognizes that we must eat the flesh and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Protestantism, the majority of them reject the belief of Real Presence. The Early Church Fathers believe that Jesus was speaking literally when he told them that they must eat his flesh.

 

[Writer]

I just spent half an hour writing a last post on this, but I lost it when I hit the button on my browser. That being the case, I am just going to post a final quote from Saint Augustine. This is taken from one of his homilies on the Psalms.

"…no one eats that flesh without first adoring it; we should sin were we not to adore it."

So, to make a long post much shorter, this saint would have been guilty of idolatry had he not believed in Transubstantiation. The only consistent and logical answer is that he did believe in the changing of the Eucharist to the body and blood of Christ, but perhaps “just a bit less developed than other church fathers,” as one Catholic apologist explained it to me. As Saint Augustine died in 430 AD, we should not be surprised that sometimes there seems to be a bit of confliction of thought within his writings. If we don’t simply pick and choose, however, then we see the saint’s deep understanding for what it was/is.