Unmarried Permanent Deacons

[chicago]

If you notice my links on the educational requirements, you will see that there are both Bachelors and Masters level programs. Are you talking about having a Diaconate based on High School level Theology and Philosophy?

No. By “higher education” I did not intend to imply that there would not be “college and university” schooling at all, but merely that some would receive education which is greater than a lesser norm which is common to all. The idea here being that perhaps a standard which is not as significant as the current threshold for priestly training could be possible for some to enter into priestly ministry as that commonality, with another level being pursued for other priests who are thought to need it in order to fulfill the particular ministries to which they are called and assigned.

Obviously, this plays out in a certain sense already when it comes to those that are involved in, say, academic life or particular areas of service to the Church that demand higher level degrees. I am hypothesizing, however, that the present standard for mere priestly ordination and ministry may not be truly necessary for all, with only some continuing on to receive the more demanding degrees.

Also what I meant in speaking of the prerequisites for entry into the diaconal program is that, in order to be ordained a priest one typically requires extensive study in philosophy and theology. This is generally accomplished via what amounts to a bachelors degree program and a graduate program. For a younger man (right out of high school, say), it would mean about 8 years of study. For someone who already has a bachelor’s degree, it generally means a year or two of catching up on philosophy courses before entering into theological studies at the major seminary. Essentially, in order to study to be a priest, then, a man must have an undergraduate degree before being admitted to the major theologate seminary school. However, it would appear that a man with no undergraduate degree of yet could enter into a diaconal training program directly? Is this correct?

So, for instance, one might then argue (if this is, indeed, the case) that perhaps some priests could and should be able to effectively minister without having received much more in the way of “higher education” than something similar to what is already demanded of deacons.

 

[THurifer2]

So, for instance, one might then argue (if this is, indeed, the case) that perhaps some priests could and should be able to effectively minister without having received much more in the way of “higher education” than something similar to what is already demanded of deacons.

Apples to oranges. A deacon and a priest are of two completely and different vocations. A deacon is not a Half priest. Deacons do not operate in the same capacity as a priest. They are Not pastors nor should they act like one. Deacons are called to service of the church. They operate in the role of a servant. Their pastoral responsibilities are and should be minimal to that of a priest. The deacon service to the church falls third place behind family and work. My diocese requires no degree for diaconal formation. I think there is a tendency to exalt the diaconate to somthing that it is not. Deacons are servant helpers…NOT college professors. Being a good homilist does not require an Mdiv or even a Bachelors degree… it requires good training. which may come in non degree format.

 

[THurifer2]

Brendan

They also have work assignments in the contract, so that the pastor doesn’t attempt to use the deacon for washing his car and running other personal errans.

There is no need for such a contract. The need is to educate the priests that they are not the supervisor or Boss of a deacon that happens to be assigned to the same parish as them.

Deacons work for the Cardianal or Bishop. Not for the pastor of the parish they are assigned to. In fact the deacon can flat out refuse to do anyting the priest says. he is not his supervisor or Boss. At least thats the way it is in my diocese. I know a few deacons who told their parish priest to take a hike when he tried to stick them with duties.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Right now, my dioceses is only accepting candidates for the diaconate, who have a Bachelors Degree.

Apparently, the drop out rate, from the last group(which I was apart of), was too high. Only five men, made it through the 5 years of training, to ordination. One decided the very last couple months before ordination, that it wasn’t for him.

I saw the writing on the wall for myself, after the 12 week discernment process. Trying to handle the schedule with my job, was too much.

We met two nights per week, Monday and Wednesday, from 6:30 PM, until 9:30PM. I had to get up at 5AM every morning, and I would leave my house for work by 6:15AM. My commute to work was an hour away. I would not go home from work, but right to the diaconate program. I wouldn’t get home until 10:30 and sometimes 11PM. The training program got tougher. They didn’t get out until 10 and 10:30PM. . That would’ve put me at getting home around 11-11:30. Too much, so I didn’t continue into the training portion.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There is no need for such a contract. The need is to educate the priests that they are not the supervisor or Boss of a deacon that happens to be assigned to the same parish as them.

Deacons work for the Cardianal or Bishop. Not for the pastor of the parish they are assigned to. In fact the deacon can flat out refuse to do anyting the priest says. he is not his supervisor or Boss. At least thats the way it is in my diocese. I know a few deacons who told their parish priest to take a hike when he tried to stick them with duties.

Actually, there is a need for the “assignment agreement” similar, but not a legal contract. It helps define the responsibilities the deacon will have at the parish.

When the diaconate was first re-established, there was some resistance from priest and sometimes the deacons were not getting their proper assignments. the agreement helps ensure the communication is clear.

The deacon reports to the Bishop, but the pastor is still head of the parish, and has the say on issues.

Jim

 

[chicago]

Apples to oranges. A deacon and a priest are of two completely and different vocations. A deacon is not a Half priest. Deacons do not operate in the same capacity as a priest. They are Not pastors nor should they act like one. Deacons are called to service of the church. They operate in the role of a servant. Their pastoral responsibilities are and should be minimal to that of a priest. The deacon service to the church falls third place behind family and work. My diocese requires no degree for diaconal formation. I think there is a tendency to exalt the diaconate to somthing that it is not. Deacons are servant helpers…NOT college professors. Being a good homilist does not require an Mdiv or even a Bachelors degree… it requires good training. which may come in non degree format.

Alright, then, if you prefer take the deacon to priest correlation out of the articulation. The point remains the same. Is the extent of training for priestly ministry that is currently the standard truly necessary? Could something even more basic suffice for one standard level, with there being additional levels of higher education for priests who may require it in their particular ministries and responsibilities? As you have stated, what is required, ultimately, for most ministry, really, is not… “an Mdiv or even a Bachelors degree,” but “…good training which may come in non degree format.” Or are we making ministerial training too much about academics and heady articulation abilities, but not enough about actual practical ministry?

 

[chicago]

Right now, my dioceses is only accepting candidates for the diaconate, who have a Bachelors Degree.

Apparently, the drop out rate, from the last group(which I was apart of), was too high. Only five men, made it through the 5 years of training, to ordination. One decided the very last couple months before ordination, that it wasn’t for him.

I’m not certain that I am following you here. Are these two ideas connected? Did it seem to be too much for those without college degrees in some particular way? If so, why was that? Has anything changed now that they are only accepting applicants with a Bachelors?

 

[chicago]

The deacon reports to the Bishop, but the pastor is still head of the parish, and has the say on issues.

I would be interested in how this compares/contrasts with the relationship of associate priests in a parish to their bishops versus pastors of the parish to which they are assigned.

 

[THurifer2]

Alright, then, if you prefer take the deacon to priest correlation out of the articulation. The point remains the same. Is the extent of training for priestly ministry that is currently the standard truly necessary?

I believe it is.

Could something even more basic suffice for one standard level, with there being additional levels of higher education for priests who may require it in their particular ministries and responsibilities?

that already exists in some cases

As you have stated, what is required, ultimately, for most ministry, really, is not… “an Mdiv or even a Bachelors degree,” but “…good training which may come in non degree format.”

I was applying that statement exclusively to the permanent diaconate.

Or are we making ministerial training too much about academics and heady articulation abilities, but not enough about actual practical ministry?

In short Yes for deacons and no for priests.

What I believe is you are trying to relax educational requirements for priests. And what I am implying that the Educational requirements for deadons need to be relaxed.

Again the correlation is a poor one because they are two completely and different ministries. I believe the diaconate is being far too exalted in the church. It needs to be dumbed down…so to speak. BUT not the priesthood. The deaconate is becoming more and more of an academic hurdle for some very capable and gifted men who have jobs and families to support. I find it very strane indeed that the diaconate training programs are becoming more and more involved and difficult. Personally I feel that the “culture” of diaconate may be behind this. No doubt that there are many men who are deacons who wanted to be priests but also wanted to Marry. This is too bad because the diaconate and the preisthood are two separate callings.

 

[chicago]

In short Yes for deacons and no for priests.

Alright. Why?

What I believe is you are trying to relax educational requirements for priests.

In a sense, yes. I am suggesting that at least some priests really do not need such extensive education in order to effectively serve the Church in their ministry. I believe that the essence of the priesthood is something more attuned to the nature of the priesthood and actually ministry than extensive educational experience requires.

In the larger scheme of things, however, what I am really suggesting is that perhaps there are others ways to approach these matters which would enable more men to serve by allowing them to enter ministry via a different path than what is considered normative today. (Perhaps even employing means which were used in other times of Church history.) Re-examining what the essential elements of these vocations, ministries, and lives of service are about may help us in this regard. As such, I would also support a more deep exploration of your own recommendation:

And what I am implying that the Educational requirements for deacons need to be relaxed.

Again the correlation is a poor one because they are two completely and different ministries.

Spell it out better for us, in your understanding, please. How so?

I believe the diaconate is being far too exalted in the church.

Is it possible that the priesthood, also, is being far too exalted in the Church?

It needs to be dumbed down…so to speak.

How and why?

BUT not the priesthood.

Why not?

The deaconate is becoming more and more of an academic hurdle for some very capable and gifted men who have jobs and families to support.

Could not the same be said for some single men who might desire to become priests?

I find it very strane indeed that the diaconate training programs are becoming more and more involved and difficult. Personally I feel that the “culture” of diaconate may be behind this.

Tell us more about this “culture” and how it affects such.

No doubt that there are many men who are deacons who wanted to be priests but also wanted to Marry. This is too bad because the diaconate and the preisthood are two separate callings.

Or were their true callings, possibly, to the diaconate, after all?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’m not certain that I am following you here. Are these two ideas connected? Did it seem to be too much for those without college degrees in some particular way? If so, why was that? Has anything changed now that they are only accepting applicants with a Bachelors?

The material that is being taught, is taught at a college level. In fact, the professors from Holy Cross College, teach the courses, which include, Theology, Liturgy and some other courses.

Apparently, the drop out rate of those without higher education, was such, that they put the college degree mandate in.

Jim

 

[Ecclesiasticus]

Education for priests and deacons is an interesting topic. I know for example in some parts of the USA the formation for an Orthodox priest would be considered trivial by Catholics in the USA, at least in terms of length and private-study versus attending classes. There are just not enough resources to go around and many of the aspirants are married and already settled.

It would be interesting to understand the required formation for Catholic priests in some countries of Africa. It’s probably not a bachelor’s agree plus 5-6 years of seminary as it is in the USA.

I also read with interest the “modification” of diaconate formations to match the men. That seems exactly backwards.

 

[THurifer2]

I also read with interest the “modification” of diaconate formations to match the men. That seems exactly backwards.

Not true Modify the diaconate formation to match the Diaconate is what I meant. Again…deacon formation programs are going far and beyond academically what a deacon needs. My diocese WANTS married men with children to inquire and apply for aspirancy. Deaconate programs should be modeled after lay ministry programs in some dioceses. Again the clerical title of deacon is becoming more and more exalted. It feel this is a huge mistke. Ther servant (deacon) should have simplistic limited function in the church matched with simplistic educational preparation. in my diocese there are deacons who are pastoral life administrators. Which basically they are married clerics who have replaced priests. It certainly does NOTHING for the priest shortage and may even fuel it. Why become a priest when I can get a higher Masters degree, become a Catholic cleric and run a parish. Deacons should be what they are supposed to be…humble behind the scenes feeble servants to the church. Not pretent preists with wives. Oh Kay now I am done.

 

[chicago]

Not true Modify the diaconate formation to match the Diaconate is what I meant. Again…deacon formation programs are going far and beyond academically what a deacon needs. My diocese WANTS married men with children to inquire and apply for aspirancy. Deaconate programs should be modeled after lay ministry programs in some dioceses. Again the clerical title of deacon is becoming more and more exalted. It feel this is a huge mistke. Ther servant (deacon) should have simplistic limited function in the church matched with simplistic educational preparation. in my diocese there are deacons who are pastoral life administrators. Which basically they are married clerics who have replaced priests. It certainly does NOTHING for the priest shortage and may even fuel it. Why become a priest when I can get a higher Masters degree, become a Catholic cleric and run a parish. Deacons should be what they are supposed to be…humble behind the scenes feeble servants to the church. Not pretent preists with wives. Oh Kay now I am done.

Let me open up another can of worms…

Why does a man have to be a deacon to do this? Indeed, why then become a deacon at all?

 

[Brendan]

Let me open up another can of worms…

Why does a man have to be a deacon to do this? Indeed, why then become a deacon at all?

The Sacramental Grace of Holy Orders of course. Is it required to minister to the poor, no.

But the Apostles, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, established that it is beneficial for the Church to have men accomplish this service with the benefit of Holy Orders.

 

[Brendan]

Which basically they are married clerics who have replaced priests. It certainly does NOTHING for the priest shortage and may even fuel it.

How so? The are two different calls. Are you saying that God

Why become a priest when I can get a higher Masters degree, become a Catholic cleric and run a parish. Deacons should be what they are supposed to be…humble behind the scenes feeble servants to the church. Not pretent preists with wives. Oh Kay now I am done.

They are what they are, Clerics who serve the Bishop as the Bishop commands them to do. The serve in whatever way is necessary for the Bishop and Priests to be able to concentrate on the Word of God (see Acts 6)

If that means paying the bills at a parish and handleing the staffing so that the priest may come at have a heated and lighted place to say Mass.

Do you really think that managing the parish budget is the primary calling of the Ministerial Priesthood?

At least with a Deacon running things, there is someone with the Grace of Holy Orders to do things like Baptisms and allow the priest to be elsewhere, preferably visiting the sick of the parish providing the Grace of Annointing, something the Deacon cannot do.

 

[chicago]

The Sacramental Grace of Holy Orders of course.

Naturally. And, yet, if ones concern is merely to be able to do such things, it is not strictly necessary to be a deacon (as you below note.) So many lay persons already engage in such exercise of justice and charity. Is not both the Sacramental character and the actual ministry something more? Obviously, it is. But what, precisely? And what ought, therefore, be required for its preparation?

Is it required to minister to the poor, no.

But the Apostles, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, established that it is beneficial for the Church to have men accomplish this service with the benefit of Holy Orders.

Which gets us back to something of the original topic as to whether the Church ought to have more single men dedicated to this ministry, perhaps even as their full time employ.

 

[Ecclesiasticus]

Not true Modify the diaconate formation to match the Diaconate is what I meant. Again…deacon formation programs are going far and beyond academically what a deacon needs. My diocese WANTS married men with children to inquire and apply for aspirancy. Deaconate programs should be modeled after lay ministry programs in some dioceses. Again the clerical title of deacon is becoming more and more exalted. It feel this is a huge mistke. Ther servant (deacon) should have simplistic limited function in the church matched with simplistic educational preparation. in my diocese there are deacons who are pastoral life administrators. Which basically they are married clerics who have replaced priests. It certainly does NOTHING for the priest shortage and may even fuel it. Why become a priest when I can get a higher Masters degree, become a Catholic cleric and run a parish. Deacons should be what they are supposed to be…humble behind the scenes feeble servants to the church. Not pretent preists with wives. Oh Kay now I am done.

I am sorry if I misspoke. What I meant to say is that it is wrong to specify a formation based on the general abilities of the group. The formation should be specified based on the demands of being a deacon. In other words the Holy Spirit should guide the formation specification as well as the aspirant selection. If high numbers dropped-out, a huge red flag should pop-up.

It would seem like the last thing that should be considered would be dumbing-down the formation. That was done in my diocese and the results were negative.

I do however fully agree with your comments about “pretend priests with wives.” While I am sure that’s not typically the case, it certainly is in my parish and it’s horrible.