Unmitigated Failure....are they blind?

[Crusader]

Fr. JLT:

While it’s true that abuses in the Mass date back to the Last Supper, the difference between the 1962 Tridentine MIssal and the Novis Ordo is that in the Novus Ordo, almost all abuses are defensible, whereas they were not under the former rubrics. Sacrosanctum Concilium is an appeasement document, unfortunately, that says everything possible that anyone and everyone wanted. It could have been drafted by John Kerry. For instance, it states clearly that no one, not even a priest, has any right or permission to change anything in the Mass at all. Yet is also says that the priest is to work diligently to actively engage the congregation. That’s just one of many many contradictions.

At the same time, there are very very strong theological, philosophical and pastoral issues in the newly constructed Mass, as well as the very reasons for reform. That’s what my book-in-the-works is trying to deal with. Supposedly, it will be the first such examination of Sacrosanctum Concillium and the Mass in general by a parish priest who actually celebrates the Mass in a real live parish in the real live world.

I agree with the prior poster about dealing with abuses. I know that many people get all wigged out over things that are neither doctrinal nor matters of abuse . . . whther a priest wears a Gothic or a Roman chasuble, for instance. Genuine errors must be called what they are and kind fraternal correction is the way to go. However, good luck in getting anyone to do anything about it because the Vatican II documents themselves can be used to defend most anything.

– Fr. L.

Your retort is difficult to take seriously. It seems to be based on your own personal opinion rather than any facts.

People that use Vatican II or the Novus Ordo Mass as scapegoats for the liturgical abuses that are taking place in the Church today are extremely simply missing the point.

 

[Crusader]

Deacon Ed:

I find this thread to be quite amusing, and utterly devoid of any knowledge of the history of the Church!

Every single major council produced results like this. Take the polarization around the Mass, for example. Following the Council of Trent it took the French 100 years to adopt the Missal that was produced as a result of the call for reform. How about the Council of Ephesus which produced a major schism that remains to this day?

Sheesh! Transitions like this are always painful, always produce hurts, always lead to the exact sort of problems we see today. The only difference is that, with modern methods of communication, it’s happening much faster.

Are the Liturgical reforms a failure or an “unmitigated disaster”? Not hardly. Are the subject to abuse? You betch’ 'em! Were the reforms following Trent any different? Not at all! Certain prevalent abuses were addressed and rubrics written to circumvent them. So, new ones arrived on the scene.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Deacon Ed

I hope you don’t mind if I ask, but what sort of formal education do you have in addition to your diaconate formation of course?

Thanks.

 

[Fr.JLT]

Hello, Olympia! Great name!!!

Yes, in fact, I could give you those facts. But no, in fact, I will not. HAHAH I am not prepared here and now to give a semester or two’s course on Patristics, Church History or Conciliar History. However, there are many good books available, one entitled, A History of the Church Councils, I believe as well as many historical essays on the net. Or, you can simply read books of the various conciliar documents themselves. All of them, I believe, including the First Council of Jerusalem (as recorded in the Acts of the Apostles) will show you their resons for conveneing and their issues at hand.

Apart from that, just reqad the Vatican II documents and commentaries, which describe it as a unique council, the only strictly pastoral council convened.

– Fr. L.

Olympia:

Can you please give us some details of these historical facts??

 

[Fr.JLT]

Hey, Crusader!

Excuse me? Your response is ridiculous. YOu don’t need to be spoon-fed. Take some responsiblity and make the research on your own with the legitimate sources. It’s a shame that two darlings decided to burn down my church, convent, school and recotry and with it, my library and files, lost in flames or water. I don’t need to take the time to do exactly the same thing that you yourself can do. You are the one with the issue, so the burden falls upon you; I am not a babystiiter. If I the conversation were about one of your hbbies, you’d be relentless in finding the sources. Sorry that I can’t name them off the top of my head. That’s not what I do. I guide you for YOU to do you part.

I wouldn’t be saying something of which I was not sure. I am a priest of the Church, the only True Church . . . by my choice., If you want personal opinions ans all that otehr bovine excrement, then don’t engage me, seek someone else. Perhaps the Anglicans would be a good start.

Personal opinion? What personal opinion can be stated on the resons why councils were called? Ludicrous. Stop being inflamatory and join in an genuine inteligent discussion.

– Fr. L.

 

[deogratias]

:clapping: You have made my day

 

[peregrinator_it]

Agomemnon:

Here’s my take:

The Liturgical reforms of Paul VI have been an unmitigated failure. The abuses are inherent in the manufactured liturgyof Paul VI and cannot be reformed.

Any comments?

I respectfully, but completely, disagree.

Let me explain my point of view. I am 25 years old. I have been most privileged and blessed to attend for most of my life a parish that celebrates the “Novus Ordo” Mass in Latin with complete reverence. The prayerfulness and beauty of the liturgy in my parish has materially contributed to the faith and faithfulness, not only of myself, but also of my contemporaries in the parish, in the teeth of modern culture and in one of the most politically, morally, and religiously corrupt areas of the country.

My parish is able to celebrate the “Novus Ordo” Mass without abuse simply because the parishoners were willing to stand up and demand it from the bishop and from the priests.

Someone has said in a previous post that the documents of Vatican II are simply too easy to misinterpret. I don’t claim to be an expert on Vatican II, but I have read the documents of the Council, and again I must respectfully disagree.

The documents of Vatican II are “easy to misinterpret” because people in this country have been taught that there is no objective truth - particularly in intrepreting written lanuguage- and any one intrepretation is as true as another.

Frankly, I think the abuses so rampant in the new liturgy are the symptom of a complete and utter lack of sound catechesis in the Catholic Church in America for years and years. If sincere Catholics were truly aware of their relation to and obligations toward God, the abuses in the liturgy would be far less rampant.

(As an aside, I have attended the Tridentine mass before and find
not being permitted to say the responses utterly frustrating…)

Well, that’s my $0.02. I could rant on and on… but this is already far less concise than I intended it to be…

 

[Fr.JLT]

Dear Pere!

WOW! Let me commend you on your interest and devotion. A you, I also grew up in a parish that offered the Mass “by the bo0ok.” Though not in Latin, it was in another language, though not English. The Mass was, I must admit, the very core of my calling to the priesthood and I know from my father, his very calling to marriage and fatherhood which lasted “until death do us part.” As for myself, I jusrt celebrated my 12th anniversary as a priest. Yes, I am an ancient 37 now but, at youage of 25, I was already a priest, by permission personally from the Pope (The new laws put 25 as the minimum age for ordination).

I also thank you, in the name of tohers and myself, for your respectful post. Together with you, I was not subjected to the many experimentations and abuses so often elucidated by others. You and I are blessed, as I think so many are. Abuses are rampant but we must remeber that they always were!!! That is NOT to dismiss them, but it is to understand that GHod must beallowing such things for a reason. And the fact that you posted here this night is reason enough. YOu know what’s right. Now, get the proper resources, speak to your priests and arm yourslef to defend the Mass.

Thanks fo rbeing you and taking the ime and interest. Just promise the Lord and Our Lady that you’ll keep it up!!! I think here, you will find genuine challenges (not to be dismissed), flamers (to be dismissed) and compatriots.

Listen, base line . . . YOua re 25. YOu are an inspiration simply by your interest. Open your mind in the sense of being receptive. Do NOT open your mind inthe contemporary sense of EMPTYING it. You’[ve got a good base. There are plenty who will battle or convene to adopt, support and love you.

– Fr. L.

I respectfully, but completely, disagree.

Let me explain my point of view. I am 25 years old. I have been most privileged and blessed to attend for most of my life a parish that celebrates the “Novus Ordo” Mass in Latin with complete reverence. The prayerfulness and beauty of the liturgy in my parish has materially contributed to the faith and faithfulness, not only of myself, but also of my contemporaries in the parish, in the teeth of modern culture and in one of the most politically, morally, and religiously corrupt areas of the country.

My parish is able to celebrate the “Novus Ordo” Mass without abuse simply because the parishoners were willing to stand up and demand it from the bishop and from the priests.

Someone has said in a previous post that the documents of Vatican II are simply too easy to misinterpret. I don’t claim to be an expert on Vatican II, but I have read the documents of the Council, and again I must respectfully disagree.

The documents of Vatican II are “easy to misinterpret” because people in this country have been taught that there is no objective truth - particularly in intrepreting written lanuguage- and any one intrepretation is as true as another.

Frankly, I think the abuses so rampant in the new liturgy are the symptom of a complete and utter lack of sound catechesis in the Catholic Church in America for years and years. If sincere Catholics were truly aware of their relation to and obligations toward God, the abuses in the liturgy would be far less rampant.

(As an aside, I have attended the Tridentine mass before and find
not being permitted to say the responses utterly frustrating…)

Well, that’s my $0.02. I could rant on and on… but this is already far less concise than I intended it to be…

 

[Crusader]

Fr. JLT:

Hey, Crusader!

Excuse me? Your response is ridiculous. YOu don’t need to be spoon-fed. Take some responsiblity and make the research on your own with the legitimate sources. It’s a shame that two darlings decided to burn down my church, convent, school and recotry and with it, my library and files, lost in flames or water. I don’t need to take the time to do exactly the same thing that you yourself can do. You are the one with the issue, so the burden falls upon you; I am not a babystiiter. If I the conversation were about one of your hbbies, you’d be relentless in finding the sources. Sorry that I can’t name them off the top of my head. That’s not what I do. I guide you for YOU to do you part.

I wouldn’t be saying something of which I was not sure. I am a priest of the Church, the only True Church . . . by my choice., If you want personal opinions ans all that otehr bovine excrement, then don’t engage me, seek someone else. Perhaps the Anglicans would be a good start.

Personal opinion? What personal opinion can be stated on the resons why councils were called? Ludicrous. Stop being inflamatory and join in an genuine inteligent discussion.

– Fr. L.

Your posting added absolutely zero value to the discussion.

Rather than project your anger and confusion on this forum, perhaps you could actually join in the discourse?

I find it laughable that some people actually feel that the liturgical ills many of us experience today are a product of Vatican Council II. I find it doubly laughable that some people feel the “tlm” is some sort of silver bullet that will eradicate liturgical abuse within the Church. Utter nonsense.

Read the good father’s letter. It may shatter your fantasy of the “good old days” but those who are actually going to help the Church will be based in reality, not fantasy.

 

[Crusader]

peregrinator_it:

Someone has said in a previous post that the documents of Vatican II are simply too easy to misinterpret. I don’t claim to be an expert on Vatican II, but I have read the documents of the Council, and again I must respectfully disagree.

The documents of Vatican II are “easy to misinterpret” because people in this country have been taught that there is no objective truth - particularly in intrepreting written lanuguage- and any one intrepretation is as true as another.

Frankly, I think the abuses so rampant in the new liturgy are the symptom of a complete and utter lack of sound catechesis in the Catholic Church in America for years and years. If sincere Catholics were truly aware of their relation to and obligations toward God, the abuses in the liturgy would be far less rampant.

(As an aside, I have attended the Tridentine mass before and find
not being permitted to say the responses utterly frustrating…)

Well, that’s my $0.02. I could rant on and on… but this is already far less concise than I intended it to be…

As John Madden would say:

BOOM!

BANG!

You hit the nail on the head. I would also suggest that Vatican Council II was introduced to the public during a particularly septic time in history. Something we are still trying to recover from within the Church…

 

[Crusader]

TobyLue:

A few observations
I really do not see any contradition here. Sure, a priest is not supposed to change anything, but engaging the congregation has nothing to do with making changes. The congregation should actively participate and not sit like a bump on a log which is what we used to do during the Tridentine mass. Oh, don’t get me wrong. I still love the Tridentine Mass as long as the priest does not rush like a flash throught it. I remember as a child that I had my Fr. Steadman missalette but I could never keep up with the priest. He would start the Credo and I would try to read as fast as possible and he would be through when I was just halfway through it. It would take him less than 10 seconds for the Last Gospel and give the final blessing like just a flash and off he went and off went the whole congregation without even uttering an “amen”. Nobody knew at what part of the mass the priest was because he mumbled and zapped through the prayers. Everybody would come into the church quietly, (which we still should) and in just half a hour or less we were out. :yawn: At my parish we celebrate the AU (Anglican Usage Liturgy under the Latin Rite), but there have been times when our priest has celebrated the current mass at other churches and the reverence is still there. As long as the rubrics are followed, there should be no problem. I think the problems arise when the “liturgy committees” take over and start introducing their own ideas, start using props to make things more “lively” and the priest lets them do whatever they want for the sake not upsetting them.
And as far as the “Novus Ordo” is concerened, this is what I found and which I shall post.
Can anybody please point out to me some official Vatican document where it states that the current mass is to be called “Novus Ordo”?

Reverence is what is necessary, not jumpy, jazzy guitars, with rock music. Bring back the statues, which incidentally there was never a order issued to get rid of them, get rid of all catchy phrase banners, trees in the santuary and start making the Eucharist the center of the mass and not the people. Priest need to make sure the people BOW during the Creed, and BOW before receiving our precious Lord. Priest need to make sure the children, as well as the adults, are catechized properly and that it is the NORM to receive Our Lord on the tongue with the OPTION, again the OPTION of receiving communion in the hand. How many of your children have been taught to receive our Lord on the tongue?

Witness the current mass on EWTN. Its like heaven on earth It should be the same at all churches, but they are like night and day.
If any priests are reading this, I challenge you to see how many people will start coming to mass if you celebrate just one mass each Sunday the way its celebrated on EWTN. The Mass is something very, very special and it should be that way. Kids can get all that jazz at any school dance, teen gathering, radio, etc. etc. Some priest are so afraid of losing people, that they will introduce all sorts of inovations to bring them back. Teach them reverence for our Lord and you will see wonders.

Sorry, I had to vent…
.

This is precisely the sort of thing that gives “traditionalists” a bad name. Who cares if receiving in one’s hand is via an indult? BOTH in the hand and on the tongue are acceptable in the USA. One is NOT better than the other – norm or not, yet you seem to be suggesting that receiving on the tongue is more reverent. It isn’t.

 

[Fr.JLT]

Ah, Crusader is such the scholar. He can contrinbute nothing but flames. Too bad., The rest of us are trying to have a discussion here. Just because you are incapable of thought, doesn’t mean that the rest of us aren’t, even those of us who disagree or who have issues between each other. We are still on the same path, with the same focus, the same goal and the same love.

Actually, I have read the good father’s letter because I am the good father, as you choose to say.

Clearly, you are some sort of extremist plant and need a good mental health practitioner.

You clearly have no clue as to what is liturgical law. You put Norms and Options as equal, which they are not, unless you were schooled at Louvain, CU, or the NAC. And you have insulted one of the youth of the CHurch who gives a rat’s tail what happens in the church. How Dismissive you are. Too bad. zIt must be difficult to try to defend one’s own created reality. The rst of us live and labor in the real word.

Perhaps you forgot your Prozac suppository today,. At least that would explain to the gernal public why you walk funny.

Please, for the sake fo the world at large, know waht you are talking about before you write it. Thank you and God bless.

– Fr. L.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Fr. JLT:

You put Norms and Options as equal, which they are not, unless you were schooled at Louvain, CU, or the NAC.

- Just lurking through the thread, but laughed aloud when I saw it.

I can hardly wait until you start comparing the ICEL prayers with the “real thing” and the music…I’m enjoyng this thread no end.

 

[Shoshana]

Fr. JLT:

Ah, Crusader is such the scholar. He can contrinbute nothing but flames. Too bad., The rest of us are trying to have a discussion here. Just because you are incapable of thought, doesn’t mean that the rest of us aren’t, even those of us who disagree or who have issues between each other. We are still on the same path, with the same focus, the same goal and the same love.

Actually, I have read the good father’s letter because I am the good father, as you choose to say.

Clearly, you are some sort of extremist plant and need a good mental health practitioner.

You clearly have no clue as to what is liturgical law. You put Norms and Options as equal, which they are not, unless you were schooled at Louvain, CU, or the NAC. And you have insulted one of the youth of the CHurch who gives a rat’s tail what happens in the church. How Dismissive you are. Too bad. zIt must be difficult to try to defend one’s own created reality. The rst of us live and labor in the real word.

Perhaps you forgot your Prozac suppository today,. At least that would explain to the gernal public why you walk funny.

Please, for the sake fo the world at large, know waht you are talking about before you write it. Thank you and God bless.

– Fr. L.

Is this Cestdei by any other name???

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Crusader:

I hope you don’t mind if I ask, but what sort of formal education do you have in addition to your diaconate formation of course?

Thanks.

Formal education? Well, let’s see, I hold a BS in Physics from Cal State Fullerton, a Masters in Computer Science from UC Irvine, a Masters in Religious Studies from Cal State Fullerton and a Doctorate in Sacred Theology from the St. Ingnatius of Antioch Orthodox School of Theology (a now defunct insititue formerly run by the Orthodox in San Diego as an extern school for their priests and deacons to get advanced degrees).

Does that clarify anything with regard to my statements?

Deacon Ed

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Fr. JLT:

Thank you for your very condescending response to the rest of us, Deacon Ed. The question was not about the history of the Church. However, I did mention that history above, very briefly.

Of course, we know that abuses and difficulties followed every reform. Bishops beat each other bloody at the COunciul of Trent. When the Mass changed from Greek to Latin, it is said that people were kileld over it. When the Protestant schism happened . . we don’t need to visit the piles of bodies resulting. But these things were all the result of doctrinal issues and the defense of Truth.

But, if one IS familiar with the history of the Church, one would know that the Second Vatican Council was the first and only Council of the Church convened without any doctrinal cause to do so. This reform is unique and, as such, inconsistent with the history of the Church. All other councils were convened to hammer out definitions of doctrine and dogma and to codify them. Vatican II was not called under any such circumstances. Neither was there any matter of doctrine in the Mass as it existed that needed to be corrected. That is an irrefutible fact.

This is a unique question, concerning unique actions, taken by the Church following a unique council under unique circumstances in the history of the Church. The history of the Church’s reforms and Councils really is moot, other than to further prove to us that Vatican II is entirely unique.

– Fr. L.

Rev. Fr:

Hmmm… Interesting observation. Yet each and every council dealt with both doctrine and discipline. The Second Vatican Council was called, not to address doctrine but, rather, to address how the Church was to function in the modern world. As I’m sure you know, the bishops had been pushing for liturgical reform since the 19th century beginning, most significantly, with Abbot Prosper Gueranger, O.S.B., Pope St. Pius X, Dom Lambert Beuduin and many, many others. The “Pian Commission” provided a framework for this movement in the late 1940s and early 1950s.

Vatican II was unique only in that it did not proclaim any doctrine or dogma other than that which was already proclaimed, although it did clarify several aspects of the Church’s teaching, especially in the area of infallibility and the role of the bishops and laity.

Nevertheless, it was an Ecumenical Council which, aside from the extraordinary magisterium, is the highest form of teaching in the Church. We are bound (or, at least Vatican I teaches we are bound) to follow all that the Church teaches *or proposes *in matters of faith and discipline.

I still fail to see how the claim of “unmitigated disaster” can be supported, especially in light of history.

Deacon Ed

 

[deogratias]

How Dismissive you are. Too bad. zIt must be difficult to try to defend one’s own created reality. The rst of us live and labor in the real word.

Oh thank you Father, for having the courage to say what I and many have wanted to say to this self-appointed authority on everything and thanks for the best laugh I have had in a long while - :dancing:

 

[Patrick]

Fr. JLT:

Ah, Crusader is such the scholar. He can contrinbute nothing but flames. Too bad., The rest of us are trying to have a discussion here. Just because you are incapable of thought, doesn’t mean that the rest of us aren’t, even those of us who disagree or who have issues between each other. We are still on the same path, with the same focus, the same goal and the same love.

Actually, I have read the good father’s letter because I am the good father, as you choose to say.

Clearly, you are some sort of extremist plant and need a good mental health practitioner.

You clearly have no clue as to what is liturgical law. You put Norms and Options as equal, which they are not, unless you were schooled at Louvain, CU, or the NAC. And you have insulted one of the youth of the CHurch who gives a rat’s tail what happens in the church. How Dismissive you are. Too bad. zIt must be difficult to try to defend one’s own created reality. The rst of us live and labor in the real word.

Perhaps you forgot your Prozac suppository today,. At least that would explain to the gernal public why you walk funny.

Please, for the sake fo the world at large, know waht you are talking about before you write it. Thank you and God bless.

– Fr. L.

Fr. (if indeed you are priest), your language and demeanor are not what I would expect from a priest. As a member of the clergy, your actions are those of the church. I find your words and positions difficult to accept.

Patrick

 

[Crusader]

Deacon Ed:

Formal education? Well, let’s see, I hold a BS in Physics from Cal State Fullerton, a Masters in Computer Science from UC Irvine, a Masters in Religious Studies from Cal State Fullerton and a Doctorate in Sacred Theology from the St. Ingnatius of Antioch Orthodox School of Theology (a now defunct insititue formerly run by the Orthodox in San Diego as an extern school for their priests and deacons to get advanced degrees).

Does that clarify anything with regard to my statements?

Deacon Ed

Thanks.

Nope, but it gives insight to your thought process.

 

[Crusader]

Fr. JLT:

Ah, Crusader is such the scholar. He can contrinbute nothing but flames. Too bad., The rest of us are trying to have a discussion here. Just because you are incapable of thought, doesn’t mean that the rest of us aren’t, even those of us who disagree or who have issues between each other. We are still on the same path, with the same focus, the same goal and the same love.

Actually, I have read the good father’s letter because I am the good father, as you choose to say.

**Clearly, you are some sort of extremist plant and need a good mental health practitioner. **

You clearly have no clue as to what is liturgical law. You put Norms and Options as equal, which they are not, unless you were schooled at Louvain, CU, or the NAC. And you have** insulted one of the youth of the CHurch who gives a rat’s tail what happens in the church.** How Dismissive you are. Too bad. z It must be difficult to try to defend one’s own created reality. The rst of us live and labor in the real word.

Perhaps you forgot your Prozac suppository today,. At least that would explain to the gernal public why you walk funny.

Please, for the sake fo the world at large, know waht you are talking about before you write it. Thank you and God bless.

– Fr. L.

You should be booted from this forum for impersonating an ordained priest of the Church.

 

[Ray_Marshall]

Deacon Ed:

Every single major council produced results like this…
Sheesh! Transitions like this are always painful, always produce hurts, always lead to the exact sort of problems we see today. The only difference is that, with modern methods of communication, it’s happening much faster…
The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Thank you, Deacon Ed! Another vote for the study of history!