Unnerving Our Father (hand holding) experience

[Daizies]

1. I wasn’t a fan of hand-holding even before I made the switch to TLM. I have sensory issues and one is I do not like unwelcome contact from other people (not just strangers, but people very close to me). It’s not disdain or snootiness, but this invasion of my body space is like the physical manifestation of fingernails on a chalkboard, especially when I am trying to pray and someone who I’m pretty sure I saw from the corner of my eye picking his nose is now trying to catch my hand… My charity, at least, is better preserved by intently folding my hands in front of my chest (up high so it’s obvious) and keeping eyes front.

I’m also not a fan of the touchy-feely sign of peace, for the reasons above (and also the distraction from what’s taking place on the altar, where our attention should be focused). Now instead of just holding someone’s hand, I’d have to turn around and shake four different people’s sweaty, clammy, dead-fish handshakes. God love them, but give me this very unpleasant distraction during Holy Mass.

This is part of my issue with this practice too. I have an anxiety disorder, and I REALLY hate people touching me (to my brain it’s akin to being jabbed with red-hot pokers), particularly without asking if it’s okay to do so (some days are better than others) and this includes friends and family members. If I was told I had to hold hands, I still wouldn’t, or I’d leave. It’s not about insisting it has to be my way or none at all, it’s about not having a panic attack in the middle of Mass.
I always just clasp my hands in front of me, and if people think I’m stuck up, there’s not much I can do about it.

 

[clem456]

Neither of which are appropriate gestures during the Our Father, which is, after all, a supplicative prayer to God.

Sure. Chapter 22 on the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium:

*22. 1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.

1. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.
2. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.*

No other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything. Since laypersons are ontologically and authoritatively subordinate to priests, they have even less authority to alter the liturgy than he does.

.

So then you read this to mean that at all Masses everywhere in the world, postures and gestures are the same.
But yet different cultures are use widely different music and expressions at Mass. Some people hold their hands up in praise when the Spirit moves them!! How to get all these Catholics in line? It will take a new office in the Church. What should we call it?

What about things like eye contact? Is eye contact different from holding hands? Those that don’t pay attention at Mass may slouch on one leg in indifference. Should we spend time correcting their posture?

Expressions of unity and solidarity are unwelcome at Mass? Does Christ’s sacrifice bring us unity and solidarity? Or personal validation alone.

 

[sw85]

Please correct me if I’m misreading your post…

In your view then, the local custom of holding hands at the Our Father detracts from worship of the Creator of the Universe for those people?
And degrades the Mass to the level of a campfire?
And parishes that have this custom are not blessed?

Im just wondering if that’s what you really intend, or if you are engaging in hyperbole.

I’d endorse all those claims, the third one with some reservation (since I think the wording is uncharitable WRT to what the lizaane was saying).

The Our Father is a supplicative prayer to God. Holding hands is neither prayerful nor reverential; even the supporters of hand-holding don’t think it is (they support it because it “builds community” and “promotes harmony” or whatever). Whatever it does is not appropriate to the recitation of the Our Father. So, yes, holding hands during the Our Father detracts/distracts from the worshipful purpose of the Our Father.

I for one agree that it degrades the Mass, or rather does it part to degrade the Mass. It’s not the only thing that does it, but it’s one thing among others. The Mass exists, first and foremost, to glorify God. Holding hands doesn’t do that. It’s done to make us feel good about ourselves. Mass is supposed to be vastly different than what we encounter in the profane world. So in an ideal world, Mass would not look like anything we encounter in ordinary experience.

What lizaane said was that her parish is blessed for not having it, i.e., because hand-holding is a curse (or at least a nuisance). In other words, hand-holding during the Our Father is a bad thing and not having to deal with it is a good thing. So insofar as parishes have it, they have to deal with a bad thing, and are not blessed thereby (except insofar as having to suffer through bad things is an opportunity to do penance).

 

[lizaanne]

Please correct me if I’m misreading your post…

In your view then, the local custom of holding hands at the Our Father detracts from worship of the Creator of the Universe for those people?
And degrades the Mass to the level of a campfire?
And parishes that have this custom are not blessed?

Im just wondering if that’s what you really intend, or if you are engaging in hyperbole.

YES

YES

NEVER said that. I said that WE at MY parish are blessed that we do not do this. I said nothing about anyone else’s parish.

~Liza

 

[robwar]

This is part of my issue with this practice too. I have an anxiety disorder, and I REALLY hate people touching me (to my brain it’s akin to being jabbed with red-hot pokers), particularly without asking if it’s okay to do so (some days are better than others) and this includes friends and family members. If I was told I had to hold hands, I still wouldn’t, or I’d leave. It’s not about insisting it has to be my way or none at all, it’s about not having a panic attack in the middle of Mass.
I always just clasp my hands in front of me, and if people think I’m stuck up, there’s not much I can do about it.

I understand but you and adopted heir are the exception to the majority of people out there who don’t struggle with these issues. Having anxiety to the level you are describing is clearly not the norm. While not wanting to be touched at all is one thing but simple smile at others always very nice.

 

[sw85]

So then you read this to mean that at all Masses everywhere in the world, postures and gestures are the same.

I read it to mean just what it says – alterations to the liturgy which are not themselves allowed by the Vatican are forbidden.

The Vatican allows some alterations at the discretion of the parish priest (who may, for instance, choose to require communion to be received only on the tongue, in certain circumstances) or the bishop (who may regulate posture in some places). Where allowances for deviation are not made, either explicitly in the rubrics themselves or by indult, they are not allowed.

But yet different cultures are use widely different music and expressions at Mass. Some people hold their hands up in praise when the Spirit moves them!! How to get all these Catholics in line? It will take a new office in the Church. What should we call it?

“What to do about X” isn’t really the point of this discussion. The point of the discussion is whether or not X is allowed. In this case, X = holding hands during the Our Father, and X is not allowed.

Expressions of unity and solidarity are unwelcome at Mass? Does Christ’s sacrifice bring us unity and solidarity? Or personal validation alone.

Illicit liturgical practices are unwelcome at Mass.

And Christ’s sacrifice brings us all those things, of course. It brought us those things even during the vast majority of Church history when we didn’t spend 5 minutes awkwardly groping one another in the pews. This practice sprung into being a few decades ago; it doesn’t seem anyone anywhere thought it was necessary before then. And His sacrifice would continue to bring us those things if and when (God willing) this practice finally vanishes.

 

[robwar]

I’d endorse all those claims, the third one with some reservation (since I think the wording is uncharitable WRT to what the lizaane was saying).

The Our Father is a supplicative prayer to God. Holding hands is neither prayerful nor reverential; even the supporters of hand-holding don’t think it is (they support it because it “builds community” and “promotes harmony” or whatever). Whatever it does is not appropriate to the recitation of the Our Father. So, yes, holding hands during the Our Father detracts/distracts from the worshipful purpose of the Our Father.

I for one agree that it degrades the Mass, or rather does it part to degrade the Mass. It’s not the only thing that does it, but it’s one thing among others. The Mass exists, first and foremost, to glorify God. Holding hands doesn’t do that. It’s done to make us feel good about ourselves. Mass is supposed to be vastly different than what we encounter in the profane world. So in an ideal world, Mass would not look like anything we encounter in ordinary experience.

What lizaane said was that her parish is blessed for not having it, i.e., because hand-holding is a curse (or at least a nuisance). In other words, hand-holding during the Our Father is a bad thing and not having to deal with it is a good thing. So insofar as parishes have it, they have to deal with a bad thing, and are not blessed thereby (except insofar as having to suffer through bad things is an opportunity to do penance).

This all is just your opinion. Jesus came and touched others as well as let himself be touched by other people. It’s kinda sad to see that simple touching another fellow human being is viewed as a curse. It is a bigger curse that too many Catholics can’t even follow some of the basic Catholic teachings, support contraception, abortion etc etc and there is repeated angst about simply holding hand during Our Father in Mass. While you might not feel good about it, others certainly have not problem and probably helps them to feel apart or included in the community.

 

[adopted_heir]

I understand but you and adopted heir are the exception to the majority of people out there who don’t struggle with these issues. Having anxiety to the level you are describing is clearly not the norm. While not wanting to be touched at all is one thing but simple smile at others always very nice.

Lol I’ll smile at you, just don’t touch me!

Of course, both aspects of the problem–sensory and I dunno, devotional (ie, the ‘distraction’ factor) are solved in the EF. I’m fine with NO allowing it if it’s deemed a licit addition, but it is not a requirement, nor even a major part of the ritual, so I’m not going to be pressed into doing it. If someone’s feelings are hurt by my ‘snubbing’ them (which I’m not), they are more than welcome to introduce themselves to me after Mass, outside, and strike up a conversation. (Of course, conversations with strangers is just about as bad as clammy stranger handshakes, but it’s easier given a specific topic like, “I noticed you don’t hold hands during the Our Father. Can I ask why?”)

 

[robwar]

:

Lol I’ll smile at you, just don’t touch me!

Of course, both aspects of the problem–sensory and I dunno, devotional (ie, the ‘distraction’ factor) are solved in the EF. I’m fine with NO allowing it if it’s deemed a licit addition, but it is not a requirement, nor even a major part of the ritual, so I’m not going to be pressed into doing it. If someone’s feelings are hurt by my ‘snubbing’ them (which I’m not), they are more than welcome to introduce themselves to me after Mass, outside, and strike up a conversation. (Of course, conversations with strangers is just about as bad as clammy stranger handshakes, but it’s easier given a specific topic like, “I noticed you don’t hold hands during the Our Father. Can I ask why?”)

to you too! take care and God bless!

 

[clem456]

I’d endorse all those claims, the third one with some reservation (since I think the wording is uncharitable WRT to what the lizaane was saying).

The Our Father is a supplicative prayer to God. Holding hands is neither prayerful nor reverential; even the supporters of hand-holding don’t think it is (they support it because it “builds community” and “promotes harmony” or whatever). Whatever it does is **not appropriate **to the recitation of the Our Father. So, yes, holding hands during the Our Father **detracts/distracts **from the worshipful purpose of the Our Father.

Lets just say you would get tons of dispute about that. Hand holding as a specific practice aside, judging the reverence and prayerfulness of others at Mass is neither reverential or prayerful. For sure. It has never detracted from the realities of the Mass in my experience.

I for one agree that it degrades the Mass, or rather does it part to degrade the Mass. It’s not the only thing that does it, but it’s one thing among others. The Mass exists, first and foremost, to glorify God. Holding hands doesn’t do that. It’s done to make us feel good about ourselves. Mass is supposed to be vastly different than what we encounter in the profane world. So in an** ideal **world, Mass would not look like anything we encounter in ordinary experience.

It might be presumptious to assume that glorifying God does not include gestures of solidarity. You might again be presuming to know the mind of other worshippers.
Whatever other discussion of this practice, to introduce “profanity” into the discussion is not proper. God did become human after all, despite all of humanity’s weakness and sinfulness as well as our solidarity and unity.

I think the theology of what the “profane” world “is” may be a little off here. We don’t live in an ideal world, we live in THE world, the same one Christ became part of. We are blessed to be part of the world that God created. The world is not profane, the human heart can be profane. Solidarity and unity need to be worked at. Sacrifice needs to take place. Christ’s, and ours. For me it is a sacrifice to join hands with people at times. I do it anyway.

What lizaane said was that her parish is blessed for not having it, i.e., because hand-holding is a curse (or at least a nuisance). In other words, hand-holding during the Our Father is a bad thing and not having to deal with it is a good thing. So insofar as parishes have it, they have to deal with a bad thing, and are not blessed thereby (except insofar as having to suffer through bad things is an opportunity to do penance

Parishes that hold hands during the Our Father are not suffering because of it. Sorry but just not true.

 

[Faithdancer]

Holding hands during the Our Father is not in the rubrics, and neither is hand shaking. People should be more observant of the physical cues of others, and not force physical contact or get bent out of shape because not everyone wants to hold hands or shake hands with strangers.

 

[Faithdancer]

I really don’t know about the origins of the hand holding.

With regard to the orans position, several years ago our bishop had all the parishes in our diocese instruct the congregations verbally, and with an insert diagram in our bulletin with regard to how they should extend their hands if they wanted to. They were not to do it like the priest does, but to keep their elbows next to their waist and extend their arms in front of them, palms open. I assume this was meant to avoid people extending their hands way out to their sides, imitating the priest, and sometimes in front of someone’s face.

So, what was the result of that instruction? In my parish about 50% reverted to a praying position, hands clasped or palms together, and about 25% continued with arms outstretched to the sides or high in the air, and the rest held hands.

The hand holding does seem to be a transplant, maybe from the Pentecostals? It is relatively recent, and I’ve assumed it was to make things more folksy and Protestant-y. I just hope they don’t start doing the rattlesnake thing in Mass.

That’s funny about the orans position; there certainly are a lot of variations. I’ve seen full on arms wide, reaching high (kind of distracting), to hands folded serenely. I prefer the latter.

 

[Faithdancer]

The Vatican allows some alterations at the discretion of the parish priest (who may, for instance, choose to require communion to be received only on the tongue, in certain circumstances)

Good point here- many folks don’t realize that communion on the tongue is the norm, and communion in the hand is the exception granted to the bishops by the Vatican. Good points as well about hand holding and the rubrics.

 

[Actaeon]

That’s a new one on me. I don’t’ agree with it. I was in Korea in the military, and it is common to see two grown Korean men walking hand-in-hand. The command thought it was enough of a concern to U.S. members that it included an explanation in its literature on service in Korea that it was not a sign of homosexuality but that they were merely friends. If "holding hands in our culture is a common sign of ‘solidarity’ and ‘unity’ " then such an explanation would not have been necessary.

Again, there is a difference between two people holding hands, a gesture which is definitely seen differently around the world (I’ve been to the middle east, I know it is quite common for two men to hold hands in friendship there while in the USA such behavior would be regarded quite differently), and a group of people holding hands in “unity” or “solidarity”.

In the realms of politics, the practice is known as a human chain, and as such is used quite often in western society… hence why I’m so surprised that you’re unaware of such a largely employed cultural phenomenon. I can only conclude that you read very little in the news regarding the Occupy Wall Street protests, and have never been to the March for Life events (both of which feature(d) human chains QUITE prominently).

 

[sedonaman]

… and a group of people holding hands in “unity” or “solidarity”. …

I’m not an NF personality type, so this is a completely foreign concept to me.

 

[adopted_heir]

Isn’t our solidarity shown in the reception of the Holy Eucharist? I mean, isn’t that the ultimate unity we can achieve in this life? Kind of makes hand-holding seem … small beans.

 

[lizaanne]

Parishes that hold hands during the Our Father are not suffering because of it. Sorry but just not true.

You can’t state this so emphatically, because you have absolutely NO way of knowing this.

If one person’s prayerful attention is diverted.
If one person is thinking more about sweaty palms or germs.
If one person is embarrassed or uncomfortable to hold hands with a stranger.
If one person is aroused by holding hands with someone they feel attracted to that is not their spouse.
… then the entire parish suffers.

And you cannot tell me that these things don’t happen. Because I could start a thread asking people all the things that go through their minds - HONESTLY - when having to hold hands with someone they don’t know (or perhaps do), and I guarantee you that more than one will say something along these lines.

If people are being distracted from the purpose of being at Mass - then it’s not good for anyone.

~Liza

 

[robwar]

You can’t state this so emphatically, because you have absolutely NO way of knowing this.

If one person’s prayerful attention is diverted.
If one person is thinking more about sweaty palms or germs.
If one person is embarrassed or uncomfortable to hold hands with a stranger.
If one person is aroused by holding hands with someone they feel attracted to that is not their spouse.
… then the entire parish suffers.

And you cannot tell me that these things don’t happen. Because I could start a thread asking people all the things that go through their minds - HONESTLY - when having to hold hands with someone they don’t know (or perhaps do), and I guarantee you that more than one will say something along these lines.

If people are being distracted from the purpose of being at Mass - then it’s not good for anyone.

~Liza

sorry but I have never been distracted in prayer by holding hands with a stranger sitting next to me. I am not sure what to make of your post. There are and always be so called distractions at church that range from a crying baby, a smelly diaper, wiggly toddlers, someone fumbling with a wrapper, cells phone not turned off, someone who dropped a book, coughing and sneezing, bad smells, etc etc. Reverence and focus at Mass begins in one heart and actually ends there too. If you are there to receive the Lord and Creator of the Universe and desire Him, none of the other little stuff that happen at every Mass no matter where or what kind or how it is run is going to take away from that unless you let it.

 

[sedonaman]

You can’t state this so emphatically, because you have absolutely NO way of knowing this.

If one person’s prayerful attention is diverted.
If one person is thinking more about sweaty palms or germs.
If one person is embarrassed or uncomfortable to hold hands with a stranger.
If one person is aroused by holding hands with someone they feel attracted to that is not their spouse.
… then the entire parish suffers.

And you cannot tell me that these things don’t happen. Because I could start a thread asking people all the things that go through their minds - HONESTLY - when having to hold hands with someone they don’t know (or perhaps do), and I guarantee you that more than one will say something along these lines.

If people are being distracted from the purpose of being at Mass - then it’s not good for anyone.

~Liza

Yes. In view of the fact that it could mean “unity”, “solidarity”, “friendship”, “homosexuality”, and who knows what else, it is wide open to misinterpretation, especially by those who are not into the highly subjective world of symbology, so how do we know which is the right one?

 

[clem456]

You can’t state this so emphatically, because you have absolutely NO way of knowing this.

If one person’s prayerful attention is diverted.
If one person is thinking more about sweaty palms or germs.
If one person is embarrassed or uncomfortable to hold hands with a stranger.
If one person is aroused by holding hands with someone they feel attracted to that is not their spouse.
… then the entire parish suffers.

And you cannot tell me that these things don’t happen. Because I could start a thread asking people all the things that go through their minds - HONESTLY - when having to hold hands with someone they don’t know (or perhaps do), and I guarantee you that more than one will say something along these lines.

If people are being distracted from the purpose of being at Mass - then it’s not good for anyone.

~Liza

Ok, no one knows the mind of God. You are claiming that parishes suffer because of a practice of solidarity. I think it preposterous to claim to know this. To say that a parish is suffering because of some particular practice that is allowed by the Church… that sounds like the prosperity gospel inverted. Why not simply avoid the suggestion? You have no idea. I do not know the mind of God either, but I am not the one claiming that parishes suffer because of joining hands at the Our Father.