Unprovable as objective truth

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I was a science and math major who escaped with only one or two humanities classes during my entire college career. Neither of these was a philosophy class.

Would someone please explain to me how something inherently unprovable may be claimed an objective truth that all must be subjected to regardless whether they agree?
 
Would someone please explain to me how something inherently unprovable may be claimed an objective truth that all must be subjected to regardless whether they agree?
I could probably assume, but what are you saying is inherently unprovable? And in which way are all subjected to it regardless of whether they agree?
 
I could probably assume, but what are you saying is inherently unprovable? And in which way are all subjected to it regardless of whether they agree?
The immediate reason I decided to ask was how it seems like the word “objective truth” are used in other threads as an end of discussion punctuation, stronger than a period, more akin to an end of file character, if it is ok to make a programming reference. At this point I don’t even remember the exact issue the phrase was used regarding that inspired this thread, but the phrase does get bandied about quite a bit.
 
I was a science and math major who escaped with only one or two humanities classes during my entire college career. Neither of these was a philosophy class.

Would someone please explain to me how something inherently unprovable may be claimed an objective truth that all must be subjected to regardless whether they agree?
Things are either true or they aren’t. But because humans aren’t omniscient, we have to weigh the evidence and conclude as to the probability of something being the case or not. There’s a big difference between proof of something and evidence for something.

And just because I think something is true doesn’t make it true. I could have easily misjudged and might be mistaken.

Sometimes people use the term “objective truth” to mean something for which there is no evidence or support. A better term for that would be “subjective truth” because there’s nothing objective about it.
 
I was a science and math major who escaped with only one or two humanities classes during my entire college career. Neither of these was a philosophy class.

Would someone please explain to me how something inherently unprovable may be claimed an objective truth that all must be subjected to regardless whether they agree?
Of course there are objective truths. Otherwise, we wouldn’t dare to get out of bed in the morning, and once out, we would have no reason to believe our senses, nor would we have any reason to trust anyone. Life would be imposible. The problem is to determine which are the objective truths which lead to a happy and peaceful life in which all men have the best chance to live in harmony and which will lead us to our final end, Union with God.

Holy Scriptures are full of the Objective Truths of Divine Revelation. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is full of an objectively true account of Salvific Truth, as determined by the Magisterium of the Church, to Whom the Holy Spirit has guaranteed all Truth necessary for Salvation.

Then there is Theological/Philosophical truth as taught not only by Catholic Theologians and Philosophers, but by non-Catholic as well.

Then there is Mathematical truth, based on certain self evident axioms.

Then there is scientific truth which has been very productive.

Then there is the self evident truth that we live in a real world and that we can draw certain natural conclusions about what we see and experience. From our observation of the world and the interaction of human beings we can conclude to " rule of thumb " truths which make life possible, even enjoyable. Call theses Common Sense Truths

Obviously Truth is of different sorts. Also there are levels of Truth, from the absolutely certain, to the merely morally or logically certain. The most certain Truths are those taught by the Catholic Church in its Dogmatic Statements, second every thing else taught by the Magisterium in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and in its official documents, such as Encyclicals.

God Bless

Linus2nd
 
I was a science and math major who escaped with only one or two humanities classes during my entire college career. Neither of these was a philosophy class.

Would someone please explain to me how something inherently unprovable may be claimed an objective truth that all must be subjected to regardless whether they agree?
If you’re referring to religious truth, there is only evidence pointing in one direction or another. There is no objective proof regarding the existence of G-d or the truth of any one particular religion; but there is subjective faith and reason, which can be very strong, even unshakable.
 
Would someone please explain to me how something inherently unprovable may be claimed an objective truth that all must be subjected to regardless whether they agree?
The most obvious answer is because said truth is revealed to be true by God.
 
If you’re referring to religious truth, there is only evidence pointing in one direction or another. There is no objective proof regarding the existence of G-d or the truth of any one particular religion; but there is subjective faith and reason, which can be very strong, even unshakable.
That’s is a pretty sweeping claim to make about objective truth!

But I don’t see how it’s warranted. To say prima facie that there is no proof for any religion seems to me to beg the question in favor of atheism (which is, I suppose, unprovable in principle). An objective proof may not - and in fact probably would not - convince everyone, since everyone does have subjective commitments, but all that shows is that religious pluralism does not necessarily imply that objective truth is unknowable. I don’t see how anyone could claim that no religion could be objectively proven in principle. That in itself would be an objective, pseudo-religious statement about the limitations of other religions’ epistemology.
 
That’s is a pretty sweeping claim to make about objective truth!

But I don’t see how it’s warranted. To say prima facie that there is no proof for any religion seems to me to beg the question in favor of atheism (which is, I suppose, unprovable in principle). An objective proof may not - and in fact probably would not - convince everyone, since everyone does have subjective commitments, but all that shows is that religious pluralism does not necessarily imply that objective truth is unknowable. I don’t see how anyone could claim that no religion could be objectively proven in principle. That in itself would be an objective, pseudo-religious statement about the limitations of other religions’ epistemology.
Atheism is not dogmatic. Science has this thing called the Scientific Method.
Religion has no part of either equation.
 
The immediate reason I decided to ask was how it seems like the word “objective truth” are used in other threads as an end of discussion punctuation, stronger than a period, more akin to an end of file character, if it is ok to make a programming reference. At this point I don’t even remember the exact issue the phrase was used regarding that inspired this thread, but the phrase does get bandied about quite a bit.
you might get inspired in a court of law…
 
The immediate reason I decided to ask was how it seems like the word “objective truth” are used in other threads as an end of discussion punctuation, stronger than a period, more akin to an end of file character, if it is ok to make a programming reference. At this point I don’t even remember the exact issue the phrase was used regarding that inspired this thread, but the phrase does get bandied about quite a bit.
The magic is stronger when capitalized, there can be no quibbling with Objective Truth™.

I think it just means someone can’t put into words why a personal belief or feeling seems right to him. While it might be OK to admit that on an art forum, it’s the kiss of death in philosophy.

Some go for a less defensive alternative, which is to get you to disprove their claim. For instance if you can’t absolutely prove there are no fairies at the bottom of the garden then there’s a chance there might be, and if there’s a chance then it must be the Objective Truth™. 😃
 
I was a science and math major who escaped with only one or two humanities classes during my entire college career. Neither of these was a philosophy class.

Would someone please explain to me how something inherently unprovable may be claimed an objective truth that all must be subjected to regardless whether they agree?
Mek:

What part of upstate NY are you from?
 
Demanding that Truth define itself within the limitations of fact is a great way to lose the meaning of Truth. Fact is a man-made attempt to quantify what we see at the end of our noses and is useful in guiding our conscious existence. It lives in the same realm as logic, rationalization and compromise, concepts which are eminently corruptible.

Fact has nothing to do with Truth. Truth is not mathematical in the least and is completely unconcerned about lining up to man’s ever-changing definitions of fact, logic, rationale or compromise. Truth is of God. Find it, and you will find God and true meaning. Believing that Truth flows from fact is a good way to ensure that you will never find it.
 
When we talk of truth we mean something deeper than fact. Over time scientific facts change but the truth that facts try to point do not change. I think truth is the authority. People can only act on what they think is true.
 
Atheism is not dogmatic. Science has this thing called the Scientific Method.
Religion has no part of either equation.
This doesn’t pertain to what I said at all. I did not say atheism was dogmatic. It can’t be proven, strictly speaking, only because it is a metaphysical position defined by rejecting the existence of something, and it is in principle impossible to prove a negative. That has nothing to do with dogma.

Atheism is also not science and has no unique claim to the scientific method.
 
That’s is a pretty sweeping claim to make about objective truth!

But I don’t see how it’s warranted. To say prima facie that there is no proof for any religion seems to me to beg the question in favor of atheism (which is, I suppose, unprovable in principle).
I don’t think he was saying prima facie that there is no proof of any religion so much as observing that, insofar as religion deals with the super-natural or extra-natural, it is by definition beyond both empirical verifiability and empirical falsifiability (as Popper may have said, if I understand him correctly).

Take a question such as, “is there life after death?” The closest one can have, in terms of empirical verifiability of the answer to this question, is via near-death-experiences, when an individual was clinically dead. Yet there is an important difference between an individual who was clinically dead, and had a near-death experience, and an individual who “stayed dead”, as is the eventual fate of all of us. We do not know for sure what happens to an individual’s consciousness when he does not come back, when he remains dead.

I don’t see how religion can answer this question, with certainty (or philosophy, for that matter; Plato tried). Before we die, we’ll never know for sure.

For example, does limbo exist? Reason cannot tell us, which is why the Church admits that it doesn’t know. Does heaven exist? Reason cannot tell us, either, but the Church believes that revelation has told us. But revelation is more in the realm of faith, than of reason. You can provide compelling evidence for why you believe revelation has occurred, but you cannot definitively, incontrovertibly prove it.

Another example – does a zygote have an immortal soul? Again, reason cannot tell us, because it is beyond the realm of empirical verification. Even the Church admits this; these are metaphysical questions that reason cannot discern, and for which no definite revelation claims to have been given.
objective proof may not - and in fact probably would not - convince everyone, since everyone does have subjective commitments, but all that shows is that religious pluralism does not necessarily imply that objective truth is unknowable.
Objective empirical truth is knowable – does a place called “Cleveland” exist – but objective metaphysical truth is not knowable…not through the senses, at least, nor through any instruments acting as extensions of the senses. We have no empirical way of knowing whether limbo exists, or not; nor, by extension, whether an afterlife exists or not.
objective proof may not - and in fact probably would not - convince everyone, since everyone does have subjective commitments, but all that shows is that religious pluralism does not necessarily imply that objective truth is unknowable.
A good question would be why consensus seems comparatively more achievable in science (e.g., evolutionary theory) and history (e.g., that the American Revolutionary war occurred)-- despite arguments and disagreements – than in religion and philosophy. My own intuitive answer is because the latter tend to put forth truths that are non-empirical in nature, thus cannot definitively be either proven, or disproven.

But this whole issue of proving religion through reason is confusing, to me, because it is not only saying there is no contradiction between science and religion, but – at worst – it is reducing the dogmas of a religion to a science.

If this were true, faith would be absolutely redundant and unnecessary, and religion could be scientifically, rationally verified with one’s neutral, reasoning intellect.

I didn’t get the impression, reading the epistles of Paul – for example - that this was what Christianity was “all about”…🤷

Nor did Jesus, in the gospels, praise Thomas for his demand of empirical evidence,but rather said, “blessed are those who believe without seeing.” I don’t think he meant to say, “blessed are those who believe without seeing, because they have logically inferred that the existence of that which they do not see is incontrovertible” 😉

Rather, I think he was referring to the virtues of faith and trust.
 
Portofino does a good job of describing what I think, which led to my question. I was actually thinking to use Limbo as a specific example to discuss that wouldn’t generate a large amount of defensiveness. Presumably there is an objective truth that Limbo either does or does not exist, we just cannot know that truth.
 
I don’t think he was saying prima facie that there is no proof of any religion so much as observing that, insofar as religion deals with the super-natural or extra-natural, it is by definition beyond both empirical verifiability and empirical falsifiability (as Popper may have said, if I understand him correctly).

Take a question such as, “is there life after death?” The closest one can have, in terms of empirical verifiability of the answer to this question, is via near-death-experiences, when an individual was clinically dead. Yet there is an important difference between an individual who was clinically dead, and had a near-death experience, and an individual who “stayed dead”, as is the eventual fate of all of us. We do not know for sure what happens to an individual’s consciousness when he does not come back, when he remains dead.

I don’t see how religion can answer this question, with certainty (or philosophy, for that matter; Plato tried). Before we die, we’ll never know for sure.

For example, does limbo exist? Reason cannot tell us, which is why the Church admits that it doesn’t know. Does heaven exist? Reason cannot tell us, either, but the Church believes that revelation has told us. But revelation is more in the realm of faith, than of reason. You can provide compelling evidence for why you believe revelation has occurred, but you cannot definitively, incontrovertibly prove it.

Another example – does a zygote have an immortal soul? Again, reason cannot tell us, because it is beyond the realm of empirical verification. Even the Church admits this; these are metaphysical questions that reason cannot discern, and for which no definite revelation claims to have been given.

Objective empirical truth is knowable – does a place called “Cleveland” exist – but objective metaphysical truth is not knowable…not through the senses, at least, nor through any instruments acting as extensions of the senses. We have no empirical way of knowing whether limbo exists, or not; nor, by extension, whether an afterlife exists or not.

A good question would be why consensus seems comparatively more achievable in science (e.g., evolutionary theory) and history (e.g., that the American Revolutionary war occurred)-- despite arguments and disagreements – than in religion and philosophy. My own intuitive answer is because the latter tend to put forth truths that are non-empirical in nature, thus cannot definitively be either proven, or disproven.

But this whole issue of proving religion through reason is confusing, to me, because it is not only saying there is no contradiction between science and religion, but – at worst – it is reducing the dogmas of a religion to a science.

If this were true, faith would be absolutely redundant and unnecessary, and religion could be scientifically, rationally verified with one’s neutral, reasoning intellect.

I didn’t get the impression, reading the epistles of Paul – for example - that this was what Christianity was “all about”…🤷

Nor did Jesus, in the gospels, praise Thomas for his demand of empirical evidence,but rather said, “blessed are those who believe without seeing.” I don’t think he meant to say, “blessed are those who believe without seeing, because they have logically inferred that the existence of that which they do not see is incontrovertible” 😉

Rather, I think he was referring to the virtues of faith and trust.
I think you are confusing ‘reason’ with ‘empirical science’.

Theology is not based only on ‘revelation’ and ’ The bible says so’, but has a very deep philosophical background.
Objective empirical truth is knowable
Yes not only that, however.

Math already offers objective truths that are not empirically verifiable.
We have no empirical way of knowing whether limbo exists, or not; nor, by extension, whether an afterlife exists or not.
This is the mistake of logical positivism

To affirm that the only objective truth is empirical truth is in itself a non-empirically verifiable statement, i.e. it refutes itself.

So your criticism is something that even several non-believing philosophers have refuted several decades ago. The very founders of logical positivism put a tombstone on it, and for good reason as well.

was actually thinking to use Limbo as a specific example to discuss that wouldn’t generate a large amount of defensiveness. Presumably there is an objective truth that Limbo either does or does not exist, we just cannot know that truth
Indeed the Church keeps Limbo of the Infants (that what you are referring too) as a theory, a theological speculation.

like in any science (in the borad sense of the word, not only physical sciences) Theology rests on a set of axioms. Of course one might reject some axioms.

The same goes for physics. One could reject the axiom that a real material world exists and science is just an illusion (mind you I do not agree with such position, yet some people do abide to “idealism”).

Now there ARE several proofs and reasons to believe in God, afterlife, Heaven, etc, based on REASON and not even necessarely invoking the bible or any kind of revelation.

Of course people might disagree on the axioms, and that is usually the main problem in philosophy.

Since we often deal with something that indeed cannot be verified empirically, it is sometimes hard to define axioms.

of course such axioms can be scrutinized themselves.

the basic axiom of logical positivism for example was found to be self refuting.
 
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