UnSaints

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Le_Chiot_Noir

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I just finished reading The Screwtape Letters, and it’s helped me articulate a question that’s been brewing in my mind for a while.

We Catholics are pretty familiar with the lives of the saints. I’m not yet very educated in that respect, but I am aware that several of them started out as some of the most inveterate sinners imaginable, only to convert later, and even become doctors of the Church.

What I wonder about is: what of the fellows who Didn’t Quite Make It?

The Screwtape Letters isn’t exactly sound theology (and even seems to be dangerous in parts), but, from the fictional accounts of corrupting religious folk or instilling false spirituality, it reminded me of the reality of stumbling close to the finish line.

So my question is: are we aware of a historical figure who, from all accounts, appeared to be a very saintly man-- works, teachings, miracles, the whole shebang-- and then suddenly, undeniably went bad?

I’m not talking about people who went to Hell; it is inappropriate to reflect on who the damned are. I’m talking about someone who was running the race well, but then, through some great calamity, or a change of heart, or a temptation (aren’t we always saying that the greatest saints were the ones most afflicted by the Enemy?), they, from all appearances, seemed to fall at the last moment.

Off the top of my head, the only one I can think of is Judas Iscariot. Personally, I trust that the Holy Spirit protected a great deal more saved than fell, but I was just curious about what we do know historically, if only for my edification, and as further cautionary accounts.
 
Don’t know if I can help you much with this one.

I’ve read that book, probably twice, and it’s a good one for getting some ideas about things where the enemy might trip each of us up. Hey, we ALL have weaknesses and faults…

However, I know of no one who fits the description that you use, except for poor despairing Judas Iscariot though I suppose there could be others. I doubt that there is much in the way of human records of such people, though I’m sure we may all see some of them at judgement, though I suspect that I’ll be far too focused on my own sins to do more than fall on my face crying and clasping the wounded feet of the Lord Jesus Christ as I say, “Jesus, I trust in you.”.

In the end, I don’t think it would do me much good to read about them if there were.

C.S. Lewis wrote that the “ScrewTape Letters” was the hardest book for him to write because he really had to put himself in a diabolical state of mind in order to do so. I think he was actually glad to be finished with it because of that. That’s a lot to suffer for the rest of the Body of Christ.

Like I said…I don’t know if that helps very much or even at all.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
Le_Chiot_Noir said:
I just finished reading The Screwtape Letters
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For those readers unfamiliar with the title, it was written by C.S. Lewis, an Oxford Anglican historian and theological writer who is respected in both Catholic and protestant circles. He was a protestant, but he confined the scope of his Christian writing to “Mere Christianity” (the very basics of the Christian Faith, upon which Catholics and protestants may usually agree). In The Screwtape Letters, Lewis wrote from the perspective of an experienced tempter (demon - ie, Screwtape) who was advising his less-experienced nephew (Wormwood) in the arts of temptation. The purpose of the book was to show us how we can be tempted and fall into temptation without even realizing it.
Le_Chiot_Noir said:
I am aware that several [Saints] started out as some of the most inveterate sinners imaginable, only to convert later
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St. Augustine may be the most famous figure in this regard.
Le_Chiot_Noir said:
So my question is: are we aware of a historical figure who, from all accounts, appeared to be a very saintly man-- works, teachings, miracles, the whole shebang-- and then suddenly, undeniably went bad?
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That’s a pretty big shebang. You even include miracles. Miracles are a tricky subject, because they might be the result of trickery. The Catholic Church absolutely recognizes the existence of miracles, yet She is slow and deliberate in declaring any particular activity “miraculous.” The Church has never certified a miracle which originated from someone who did not die in a state of apparent sancticy.

Of course, human society is replete with (apparently) good people who “turn bad.” It seems that every serial killer’s neighbor tells the camera crews, “he was such a nice guy.”
 
YES! Actually. There was one lady at the time of St Thresa of Avila, who evidently worked miracles, was a very Saintly and Holy person, and then, out of the blue, literally sold her soul to the devil. St. Theresa of Avila had to keep a low profile for quite some time because of it.
 
*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

From catholictradition.org/Mary/glories14.htm
by St. Alphonsus de Liguori (One of the 33 Doctors of the Catholic Church) - he expounds on the Hail Holy Queen prayer here:
  1. In Mexico there was a wicked woman, who, having fallen sick, repented, and made a vow to Mary that if she recovered, she would make her the offering of her hair. She got well, and made the promised offering to a statue of the Blessed Virgin. She, however, relapsed into sin; again fell ill, and died impenitent. One day after this had occurred, Mary spoke from the statue to the Jesuit father John Mary Salvaterra, in the presence of a great concourse of people, and said, "Take this hair from my head, for it belongs to an impure soul, who is already damned; it does not, therefore, become the head of the Mother of purity.’ The father obeyed, and without delay threw it into the fire.
I pray that we will all have the grace of final perseverance!!

For the glory of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary!!

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *
 
You can certainly read a lot of biographies of people who went wrong after being good. But the Church isn’t going to point out anyone as someone who went to Hell. She can declare definitively, through demonstrating miraculous shows of God’s favor, that someone went straight to Heaven. But God’s divine mercy being infinite, the Church does not presume to say who went to Hell. No matter how vile the sins committed, we have no way of knowing that a certain person did not become contrite at the last minute and repent. Only at the Last Judgment will we know who has gone to Hell and why.

Since I am a sinner, and since we are to be judged as we have judged others, I really don’t think it would be smart for me to start throwing around guesses about who’s a damned soul.
 
Origen is one of the most famous almost-but-not-quites for various reasons including autocastration and theological differences; still, he is one of the fathers of the Church and well worth reading about for more than cautionary tales.

Tertullian followed an opposite path from Augustine, going from orthodoxy to Montanism where the latter went from Manicheanism to orthodoxy.

Simon Magus, best known for burning his grimoires and following the apostles, attempted later to buy what he saw as the powers of the priesthood from Peter – that sin is now named simony after him.

Many leaders of early heretical movements were originally bishops, clergy, or respected theologians: Donatus, Nestorius, Arius, Marcion.

And do not forget that Martin Luther was a priest – as were many, many others who swam the other way across the Tiber as the Reformation occurred.

Comedy option: the sons of Sceva 😉
 
In the Vita Patrum of St. Gregory of Tours, there’s the story of the Deacon Secundellus who was deceived by a demon, and then went around curing people in the Name of Jesus.

Yes, you read it right!
 
I believe with the apparitions at La Salette the Church found the EARLY apparitions to be ‘worthy of belief’ but not the later ones - sounds like a case (which I suspect may’ve happened in a few other cases of ‘apparitions’) of somebody and something beginning in a genuine and pure way and going downhill.
 
Mirdath said:
as were many, many others who swam the other way across the Tiber as the Reformation occurred.
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FWIW, the Catholic → protestant team usually swims the Thames, not the Tiber (in any direction).
 
DavidFilmer said:
FWIW, the Catholic → protestant team usually swims the Thames, not the Tiber (in any direction).
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Well, you can swim the Tiber away from Vatican City too – although considering my example there was Luther ‘hiking the Alps’ or ‘der Rhein schwimmen’ might work a bit better 🙂
 
I’ve been busy, so I haven’t had time to partake in actual discussion, but all the replies are greatly appreciated. I have to say however that I sorely wish there weren’t any examples to give me, for a variety of reasons. I shall ponder these instances (while hoping and praying to never number among them, heh).

Thanks!
 
all I can think of is temporal rulers in history, and current day politicians, who professed and seemed to live a deep faith, yet allowed the lure for political power to draw them into denying the tenets of their own faith when given a chance to witness it in public life. another example would be those priests, who if they did not exhibit saintliness, certainly gave their superiors no cause to doubt their vocations, who allowed their sexual temptations to become their downfall.
 
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